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Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: March 12, 2008 11:17PM

This short video is a good illustration of how evolution can result in complexity and functioning organisms. Smart illustration of evolutionary concepts refuting a favourite straw man argument that ID/creationist supporters tend to bring up - the analogy of a mechanical clock somehow implying an intelligent designer.

[uk.youtube.com]

Cheers,
J


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: March 13, 2008 03:06AM

jose

If youf beleive in human evolution then please give me the order in whch all of the parts of the human body evolved.

elnatural

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: jamielor ()
Date: March 13, 2008 04:46AM

"jose

If youf beleive in human evolution then please give me the order in whch all of the parts of the human body evolved.

elnatural"

They evolved together serving the whole.

If you believe in creationism, which did God create first - cardinals or blue jays? winking smiley

- N**z

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: March 13, 2008 07:05AM

NZ

So you think they evolved together, then give me the order in wich they became complete. Example did the brain get finished before the heart, did the eyes get finished before the feet, did the lungs get finished before the blood veseles, did the muscles get finished befoore the skeloton? just give in numerical order how they became complete. LOL, no one has ever been able to answer this yet and no one ever will, LOL!!!!!!!!!!! What if I were to pay you $1000 for an answer that works, could you pull it out of the hat then? LOL..................

elnatural

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: March 13, 2008 10:53AM

> did the brain get finished before the heart

Yes, as a matter of fact it did. Cnidarians have nerve nets but not hearts.

> did the eyes get finished before the feet,

No. The feet came first, cf. the gastropods.

>did the muscles get finished befoore the skeleton?

Yes, cnidarians.

>did the lungs get finished before the blood veseles

No. Worms have blood vessels but not lungs.

Pay up!

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: March 13, 2008 11:26AM

Haha, you beat me to it arugula smiling smiley

Yes elnatural, by looking at our evolutionary ancestors you'll find when all these systems that you talk about first evolved, and plenty of examples of organisms with primitive hearts, brains, limbs and so on.

I thought the video which I posted was quite cool since it reflects a few characteristics which real life evolution also shares, such as the relatively quick transition times between evolutionary processes (such as when the clocks jumped from 1 to 2 hands, for example) and also how from just a jumble of parts related in certain ways and through "natural selection" one can arrive at arbitrarily complex organisms.

Is there anything in the computer simulation that wasn't clear or which you find objectionable?

Cheers,
J


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: March 13, 2008 11:45AM

Hey Narz,

Good to see you around. That's a good point you raise since evolution is a highly falsifiable theory. All one has to do is find rabbit fossils in the pre-cambrian and you're done smiling smiley

Hey elnatural,

a further point is that in fact evolutionary theory predicts that complexity rises as time progresses, through random mutations and natural selection, which makes sense and is backed by all the evidence since for example one can't have a brain without having some kind of nerve cells first, and then nerve bundles, and so on in increasing complexity until one arrives at some of the brains extant today. In the same way, first one needs simple unicellular organisms before one can get more complex organisms, which is what evolution predicts and the evidence shows. If you look at the evidence, it is overwhelming. ID/creationism postulates that all organisms, simple and complex, were "created" at about the same time, which is not backed up by any evidence, and in fact is clearly false when considering the geological column. Like I mentioned above, why is it that we don't find rabbit fossils in the pre-cambrian?

On a different note, I find ID/creationism quite a perplexing view to have, from a philosophical point of view, since in effect it is giving up looking for an explanation of the way things are, or of a deeper understanding of Nature, by just saying "God did it" (whatever that may really mean). Don't you find that the richness of evolutionary theory and the scientific enterprise in general allows us to appreciate and love Nature more profoundly, and to reach a better understanding of it? There is such a richness of ideas and realities of which we are overwhelmingly unaware being unearthed by science day in and day out that it really baffles me why anyone would not want to partake in this celebration of Nature.

As a side question, do you think that all the species were created at some point in the past and have remained unchanged since then? Or do you recognise that there is DNA in cells, and that it mutates, and that even in the present day new strains of bacteria and other organisms are evolving all the time? I guess my question is, do you accept the fact that evolution is occurring incessantly even today, and if so how do you reconcile that with the belief that evolutionary processes didn't occur in the past?

Cheers,
J


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: jamielor ()
Date: March 13, 2008 12:44PM

"Hey Narz,

Good to see you around."

shhhh, I'm supposed to be banned

- Jamie

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: March 13, 2008 01:03PM

Jose my friend, you are wasting your time w/ El NaturAl. He holds some exceedingly unnatural ideas that will forever remain unsullied by fact, regardless of the facts.

(hello "jamielor"!)

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: March 13, 2008 05:21PM

arugula

You didnt win any money yet as you havent answered the question. Put in numerical order all the parts of human the order in wich you think they became finished. Contest is still open...........

elnatural

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: March 15, 2008 01:20AM

Allright just as I predicted no would be able to answer my question? No one has done it in the past and no one ever will! LOL HaHaHa

elnatural

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: March 15, 2008 02:26AM

Yes, your question has been answered. Any evolutionary biologist could do it. It's something they teach the fundamentals of in core bio 2.

List any additional "parts" I have not already addressed and I will put them in order to the best of my abilities. I have had core bio 2.

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: March 15, 2008 03:33AM

brain
heart
lungs
eyes
ears
nose
mouth
skeleton
stomach
intestines
liver
kidneys
nervers
tounge
hands
feet
arms
legs
spleen
thimus
apendix
lymph system
blood vessles
esophagus
reproductive system
fingers
toes
hair
joints
gallbladder
bladder
bone marrow
muscles
tendons
skin
pituitary gland
teeth

good luck and im ready for a good laugh LOL

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: March 15, 2008 04:53PM

and to add to the above list
blood

Hey you evoluntion guys where are you hiding at,if you are so sure of yourselfs cough up the answer.

elnatural

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: March 15, 2008 05:44PM

Hey elnatural,

we answered your questions

Quote

Example did the brain get finished before the heart, did the eyes get finished before the feet, did the lungs get finished before the blood veseles, did the muscles get finished befoore the skeloton?

Now it's your turn to answer mine

Quote

Is there anything in the computer simulation that wasn't clear or which you find objectionable?


Like I mentioned above, why is it that we don't find rabbit fossils in the pre-cambrian?

As a side question, do you think that all the species were created at some point in the past and have remained unchanged since then? Or do you recognise that there is DNA in cells, and that it mutates, and that even in the present day new strains of bacteria and other organisms are evolving all the time? I guess my question is, do you accept the fact that evolution is occurring incessantly even today, and if so how do you reconcile that with the belief that evolutionary processes didn't occur in the past?

And then we can look at your further questions, and so on. That way we can move forward. It seems only fair don't you agree?

Cheers,
J


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: March 15, 2008 10:04PM

reproductive system came first.
all living things reproduce.
but it gradually became more complicated

sponge
skin is an early development.
skeletal fibers are also early
mouth but no anus

cnidarians
mouth = anus
skin
tentacles

planarians
eyes

rotifers
totally separate anus
some other GI organs

brachiopods
muscles

nemerteans
blood vessels
heart

mollusks
complete GI organs (liver, kidneys, spleen, etc.)
separate sexes (gonads, reproductive organs)

arthropods
legs
lymph

haikouichtys
skull, teeth, bone marrow, joints, tendons

lamprey
skeleton

arms
bony fish-> amphibians->reptiles-> mammals

amphibians
fingers, toes, lungs

mammals
hair, pituitary

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: March 17, 2008 12:13AM

Thanks for the list arugula, I hope elnatural responds to that and also the questions I posted earlier.

Another argument that some ID people tend to use is the fallacious assertion that the human eye is "irreducibly complex" and must therefore be "designed". Of course this argument is completely false, and one can show a sequence of events where from a very primitive light detector made of optic nerves, a very sophisticated eye arises, and each step is beneficial and selected for by nature since it confers advantages to survival.

Outline of this evolutionary process:



Also from the article

Quote

Since 1802, the evolution of a structure as complex as the projecting eye by natural selection has been said to be difficult to explain.[6] Charles Darwin himself wrote, in his Origin of Species, that the evolution of the eye by natural selection at first glance seemed "absurd in the highest possible degree". However, he went on to explain that despite the difficulty in imagining it, it was perfectly feasible:

...if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.[7]

He suggested a gradation from "an optic nerve merely coated with pigment, and without any other mechanism" to "a moderately high stage of perfection", giving examples of extant intermediate grades of evolution.[7]

Darwin's suggestions were soon proven to be correct, and current research is investigating the genetic mechanisms responsible for eye development and evolution.

......................................................................

Early eyes


The basic light-processing unit of the eye is the photoreceptor, a specialized cell consisting of two molecules in a membrane: the opsin, a light-sensitive protein, surrounding the chromophore, a pigment that distinguishes colors. When a photon is absorbed by the chromophore, a chemical reaction causes the photon's energy to be transduced into electrical energy and relayed to the nervous system. These photoreceptor cells form part of the retina, a thin layer of cells that relays visual information,[16] as well as the light and daylength information needed by the circadian rhythm system, to the brain.

The earliest predecessors of the eye were photoreceptor proteins that sense light, found even in unicellular organisms, called "eyespots". Eyespots can only sense ambient brightness: they can distinguish light from dark, sufficient for photoperiodism and daily synchronization of circadian rhythms. They are insufficient for vision, as they can not distinguish shapes or determine the direction light is coming from. Eyespots are found in nearly all major animal groups, and are common among unicellular organisms, including euglena. The euglena's eyespot, called a stigma, is located at its anterior end. It is a small splotch of red pigment which shades a collection of light sensitive crystals. Together with the leading flagellum, the eyespot acts as a sort of directional eye, allowing the organism to move in response to light, often toward the light to assist in photosynthesis,[17][18] and to predict day and night, the primary function of circadian rhythms.

It is likely that a key reason eyes specialize in detecting a specific, narrow range of wavelengths on the electromagnetic spectrum—the visible spectrum—is because the earliest species to develop photosensitivity were aquatic, and only two specific ranges of electromagnetic radiation can travel through water, the most significant of which[clarify] is visible light. This same light-filtering property of water also influenced the photosensitivity of plants.[19][20][21]


The multicellular eyepatch gradually depressed into a cup, which first granted the ability to discriminate brightness in directions, then in finer and finer directions as the pit deepened. While flat eyespots were ineffective at determining the direction of light, as a beam of light would activate the exact same patch of photo-sensitive cells regardless of its direction, the "cup" shape of the pit eyes allowed very limited directional differentiation by changing which cells the lights would hit depending upon its angle. Pit eyes, which had arisen by the Cambrian period, were seen in ancient snails, and are found in some invertebrates living today, such as planaria. Planaria can slightly differentiate the direction and intensity of light because of their cup-shaped, heavily-pigmented retina cells, which shield the light-sensitive cells from exposure in all directions except for the single opening for the light. However, this proto-eye is still much more useful for detecting the absence or presence of light than its direction; this gradually changes as the eye's pit deepens and the number of photoreceptive cells grows, allowing for increasingly precise visual information.[17]


During the Cambrian explosion, the development of the eye accelerated rapidly, with radical improvements in image-processing and detection of light direction.[22] As certain organisms benefited from the dramatic advantages given by full-fledged eyes, many other organisms were forced to evolve similarly advanced eyes in order to compete. As a result, the majority of major developments in eyes are thought to have occurred over the span of only a few million years. In the book In the Blink of an Eye, Andrew Parker discusses a theory that the evolution of the eye was the catalyst for the Cambrian Explosion. [23]

The "pinhole camera" eye was developed as the pit deepened into a cup, then a chamber. By reducing the size of the opening, the organism achieved true imaging, allowing for fine directional sensing and even some shape-sensing. Eyes of this nature are currently found in the nautilus. Lacking a cornea or lens, they provide poor resolution and dim imaging, but are still, for the purpose of vision, a major improvement over the early eyespots.[24]

Overgrowths of transparent cells prevented contamination and parasitic infestation. The chamber contents, now segregated, could slowly specialize into a transparent humour, for optimizations such as colour filtering, higher refractive index, blocking of ultraviolet radiation, or the ability to operate in and out of water. The layer may, in certain classes, be related to the moulting of the organism's shell or skin.


The transparent cells over the pinhole eye's aperture split into two layers, with liquid in between. The liquid originally served as a circulatory fluid for oxygen, nutrients, wastes, and immune functions, allowing greater total thickness and higher mechanical protection. In addition, multiple interfaces between solids and liquids increase optical power, allowing wider viewing angles and greater imaging resolution. Again, the division of layers may have originated with the shedding of skin; intracellular fluid may infill naturally depending on layer depth.

Note that this optical layout has not been found, nor is it expected to be found. Fossilization rarely preserves soft tissues, and even if it did, the new humour would almost certainly close as the remains desiccated, or as sediment overburden forced the layers together, making the fossilized eye resemble the previous layout.


Vertebrate lenses are composed of adapted epithelial cells which have high concentrations of the protein crystallin. The refractive index gradient which makes the lens useful is caused by the radial shift in crystallin concentration in different parts of the lens, rather than by the specific type of protein: it is not the presence of crystallin, but the relative distribution of it, that renders the lens useful.[25]

It is biologically difficult to maintain a transparent layer of cells as sizes, therefore the thicknesses, gradually increased. Deposition of transparent, but nonliving, material eased the need for nutrient supply and waste removal. In trilobites, the material was calcite; in humans, the material is crystallin. A gap between tissue layers naturally forms a biconvex shape, which is optically and mechanically ideal for substances of normal refractive index. A biconvex lens confers not only optical resolution, but aperture and low-light ability, as resolution is now decoupled from hole size—which slowly increases again, free from the circulatory constraints.

Independently, a transparent layer and a nontransparent layer may split forward from the lens: a separate cornea and iris. (These may happen before or after crystal deposition, or not at all.) Separation of the forward layer again forms a humour, the aqueous humour. This increases refractive power and again eases circulatory problems. Formation of a nontransparent ring allows more blood vessels, more circulation, and larger eye sizes. This flap around the perimeter of the lens also masks optical imperfections, which are more common at lens edges. The need to mask lens imperfections gradually increases with lens curvature and power, overall lens and eye size, and the resolution and aperture needs of the organism, driven by hunting or survival requirements. This type is now functionally identical to the eye of most vertebrates, including humans.


"Backward" Illumination of Retina

The retina may revert on itself, forming a double layer. The nerves and blood vessels can migrate to the middle, where they do not block light, or form a blind spot on the retina. This type is seen in squids, which live in the dim oceans. In cats, which hunt at night, the retina does not revert. Instead a second, reflective layer (the tapetum) forms behind the retina. Light which is not absorbed by the retina on the first pass may bounce back and be detected. As a predator, the cat simply accommodates blind spots with head and eye motion.

Color vision

The ability to see colors presents distinct selective advantages for species, such as being better able to recognize predators, food and mates. As opsin molecules were subtly fine-tuned to detect different wavelengths of light, at some point, color vision developed when photoreceptor cells developed multiple pigments.[16] As a chemical instead of mechanical adaptation, this may have occurred at any of the early stages of the eye's evolution, and the capability may have disappeared and reappeared, as organisms became predator or prey. Similarly, night and day vision emerged when receptors differentiated into rods and cones, respectively.

Focusing mechanism

Some species move the lens back and forth, some stretch the lens flatter. Another mechanism regulates focusing chemically and independently of these two, by controlling growth of the eye and maintaining focal length. Note that a focusing method is not a requirement. As photographers know, focal errors increase as f-number decreases. Thus, countless organisms with small eyes are active in direct sunlight and survive with no focus mechanism at all. As a species grows larger, or transitions to dimmer environments, a means of focusing need only appear gradually.

[edit] In creationism and intelligent design

Some creationists have claimed that only intelligent design could create a structure as as the eye, claiming that it is irreducibly complex.[26] It has even been flamboyantly described as evolutionary biologists' "greatest challenge as an example of superb 'irreducible complexity' in God's creation".[27] However, it is easily shown that the eye is not irreducibly complex, refuting this argument.[24]

From [en.wikipedia.org]

I hope those that believe in ID/creationism will take the time to read and learn about evolution. There is nothing to fear about learning more about the world.

Cheers,
J


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: March 17, 2008 01:19AM

Lens crystallin is a long lived protein, and tends to be badly damaged by glycotoxins. Just another reason to go raw.

RE: irreducible complexity, there is a similar claim for the bacterial flagellum, and a lovely youtube video refuting it.

[youtube.com]

I celebrate the flagellum!

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: March 17, 2008 09:51PM

well, most of this is interesting. thanks to the open minded crew for the info, great reading. little is always so interested in this stuff.

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: arugula ()
Date: March 18, 2008 12:18AM

I think the last thing (or one of the major last things) in human development was the outrageously oversized neocortex.

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: jono ()
Date: March 18, 2008 05:46AM

Hmmm... will elnatural respond to these thoughtful and intelligent answers to his/her questions? Will he/she look at the science more carefully or continue to ignore all views but his/her own? Can you feel the suspense? Find out next time on a brand new episode of The Watchmaker!

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: April 17, 2008 04:16PM

For those interested in learning more about evolution, you may be interested in knowing that all of Darwin's work is available for free online viewing here [darwin-online.org.uk]

Cheers,
J

ps I do hope elnatural will respond and be open to these ideas based on the evidence provided.


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: musicbebe ()
Date: April 26, 2008 12:35PM

No new DNA information has ever arisen due to random chance or unguided processes. Mutations are always a result of LOST or jumbled DNA information.

And lets play nice here. The creationists shouldn't call the evolutionists idiots and vice versa! We all have a worldview and a way that things make sense to us. If we present our ideas in a kind way, others will be more open to hearing them. By the way, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I can just sense the tension on this topic...

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 27, 2008 06:37AM

Oh please, blaming evolution for eugenics is like blaming creationism for racism (many to this day still believe the "mongrel races" are the descendants of Cain).

That Creationism museum still makes me chuckle. I always picture it next to a house of mirrors and a haunted mansion in an amusement park.

This graph pretty much says it all.


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 27, 2008 01:18PM

more people have been brutally slaughtered in the name of religion than anything else there ever, ever was. where anyone gets off writing that article above is beyond me, justify much? yikes.

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: April 27, 2008 10:51PM

<<But it is not out of bounds to point out that the modern times articulator of evolution ( evolution has been believed throughout time, in various forms), Darwin himself, accepted eugenics.>>

When you make assertions like this you should at least provide some evidence. Do you have any?

A good place to get you started on this topic is the following article, with references therein (you can read all of Darwin's works online in the reference I provided a few posts aog)

Quote

Political interpretations
Caricature from 1871 Vanity Fair

Darwin’s theories and writings, combined with Gregor Mendel’s genetics (the “modern synthesis”), form the basis of all modern biology.[133] However, Darwin’s fame and popularity led to his name being associated with ideas and movements which at times had only an indirect relation to his writings, and sometimes went directly against his express comments.

Eugenics

For more details on this topic, see Eugenics.

Following Darwin’s publication of the Origin, his cousin, Francis Galton, applied the concepts to human society, starting in 1865 with ideas to promote “hereditary improvement” which he elaborated at length in 1869.[134] In The Descent of Man Darwin agreed that Galton had demonstrated the probability that “talent” and “genius” in humans was inherited, but dismissed the social changes Galton proposed as too utopian.[135] Neither Galton nor Darwin supported government intervention and thought that, at most, heredity should be taken into consideration by people seeking potential mates.[136] In 1883, after Darwin’s death, Galton began calling his social philosophy Eugenics.[137] In the 20th century, eugenics movements gained popularity in a number of countries and became associated with reproduction control programmes such as compulsory sterilisation laws,[138] then were stigmatised after their usage in the rhetoric of Nazi Germany in its goals of genetic “purity”.[V]

Social Darwinism

For more details on this topic, see Social Darwinism.

The ideas of Thomas Malthus and Herbert Spencer which applied ideas of evolution and “survival of the fittest” to societies, nations and businesses became popular in the late 19th and early 20th century, and were used to defend various, sometimes contradictory, ideological perspectives including laissez-faire economics,[139] colonialism,[140] racism and imperialism.[140] The term “Social Darwinism” originated around the 1890s, but became popular as a derogatory term in the 1940s with Richard Hofstadter’s critique of laissez-faire conservatism.[141] The concepts predate Darwin’s publication of the Origin in 1859:[140][142] Malthus died in 1834[143] and Spencer published his books on economics in 1851 and on evolution in 1855.[144] Darwin himself insisted that social policy should not simply be guided by concepts of struggle and selection in nature,[145] and that sympathy should be extended to all races and nations.[146][VI]

From [en.wikipedia.org]


The whole evolution/eugenics thing which you bring up is a complete canard of course, but let us expose this fallacious argument one more time.

Firstly, eugenics has NOTHING to do with evolution. Let me try to illustrate your illogical thinking with an example.

For millennia, farmers have known that if you breed two large cows together, for example, you will tend to get more large cows, and if you breed cows that deliver lots of milk, then you will tend to get more cows that deliver lots of milk. Likewise, farmers learnt that if you crossed two plants which bore sweet fruit, then future generations of that plant would tend to bear sweeter fruit. And so sweeter hybridised fruits were developed, as well as hybridised animals which were artificially selected to possess "desirable" features. This has been know for millennia, long long before Darwin. These are examples of how ARTIFICIAL SELECTIO can affect the evolution of a species. This ARTIFICIAL SELECTION process is what eugenics is based on, ARTIFICIALLY SELECTING, by either forced sterilisation or other means, "desirable" traits for future generations.

The genius of Darwin was to recognise that there can also be NATURAL processes which can mould the evolution of a species. This NATURAL SELECTION, the pressures on the individual by the environment, is what creates the evolution of the species, and in general the great diversity and complexity of life that surrounds us. So for example, a random mutation that resulted in fish with slightly better eyesight (see example a few posts above) would give those fish higher chances of survival in their environment, be it because they could hunt for food easier, escape from predators easier, whatever. They would therefore pass on their genes with a higher probability, and eventually that eyesight mutation would become prevalent as more and more of those better seeing fish multiplied and survived, and so the whole species would evolve and change.

As I hope you can see from the above examples, eugenics has everything to do with ARTIFICIAL SELECTION (which was known long before Darwin), and NOTHING to do with NATURAL SELECTION (which was the great insight that Darwin put forward and which is the foundation of evolutionary theory).

As a further question, why do you feel it necessary to believe in an imaginary entity? Do you not think that you can be the exact same nice and benevolent person you are without having to rely upon some imaginary construct? Why not just forget about "God" and be good and eat raw foods anyways? I'll never understand why people find it necessary to believe in God in order to be good. It seems to me that is a particularly bad reason to be good, as you either expect a reward for being good, or you fear punishment from not being good. I think a better reason for being good is for reducing unnecessary suffering, recognising that other people (and animals) have emotions and feelings just like we do, since we are all related by this incredible evolutionary process.

I have already written quite a lot of about how it is preferable to choose reason and evidence over imaginary and dogmatic belief systems, but it is also interesting to read about how Darwin himself, which once studied to become a clergyman, was able to realise the falsity of the Bible and other scriptures by examining the evidence and geological record and "seating reason firmly on her seat", as Jefferson so aptly puts it.

Quote

Religious views

For more details on this topic, see Charles Darwin's views on religion.

Though Charles Darwin’s family background was Nonconformist, and his father, grandfather and brother were Freethinkers,[118] at first he did not doubt the literal truth of the Bible.[119] He attended a Church of England school, then at Cambridge studied Anglican theology to become a clergyman.[120] He was convinced by William Paley’s teleological argument that design in nature proved the existence of God,[121] but during the Beagle voyage he questioned, for example, why beautiful deep-ocean creatures had been created where no one could see them, or the problem of evil of how the ichneumon wasp paralysing caterpillars as live food for its eggs could be reconciled with Paley’s vision of beneficent design.[122] He was still quite orthodox and would quote the Bible as an authority on morality, but was critical of the history in the Old Testament.[123]


When investigating transmutation of species he knew that his naturalist friends thought this a bestial heresy undermining miraculous justifications for the social order, the kind of radical argument then being used by Dissenters and atheists to attack the Church of England’s privileged position as the established church.[124] Though Darwin wrote of religion as a tribal survival strategy, he still believed that God was the ultimate lawgiver.[125] His belief dwindled, and his grief at the death of his daughter Annie in 1851 made him more certain in his scepticism.[126] He continued to help the local church with parish work, but on Sundays would go for a walk while his family attended church.[127] He now thought it better to look at pain and suffering as the result of general laws rather than direct intervention by God.[128] When asked about his religious views, he wrote that he had never been an atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God, and that generally “an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind.”[129]

The “Lady Hope Story”, published in 1915, claimed that Darwin had reverted back to Christianity on his sickbed. The claims were refuted by Darwin’s children and have been dismissed as false by historians.[130] His daughter, Henrietta, who was at his deathbed, said that he did not convert to Christianity.[131] His last words were, in fact, directed at Emma: “Remember what a good wife you have been.”[132]

From the same wiki article as above.

Cheers,
J


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: April 28, 2008 12:39AM

jose, dude, you are SO my hero.

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: April 30, 2008 11:49AM

Hey coco, thanks, just trying to clear up a few things which people sometimes fall for.

This article describes how this religious professor has a more reasonable stance on evolution, and claims that it is more compatible with religious faith.

Quote

Roving Defender of Evolution, and of Room for God

SCIENCE AND THEOLOGY Francisco J. Ayala says that belief in evolution does not necessarily rule out belief in God.

An evolutionary biologist and geneticist at the University of California, Irvine, he speaks often at universities, in churches, for social groups and elsewhere, usually in defense of the theory of evolution and against the arguments of creationism and its ideological cousin, intelligent design.

Usually he preaches to the converted. But not always.

As challenges to the teaching of evolution continue to emerge, legislators debate measures equating the teaching of creationism with academic freedom and a new movie links Darwin to evils ranging from the suppression of free speech to the Holocaust, “I get a lot of people who don’t know what to think,” Dr. Ayala said. “Or they believe in intelligent design but they want to hear.”

Dr. Ayala, a former Dominican priest, said he told his audiences not just that evolution is a well-corroborated scientific theory, but also that belief in evolution does not rule out belief in God. In fact, he said, evolution “is more consistent with belief in a personal god than intelligent design. If God has designed organisms, he has a lot to account for.”

Consider, he said, that at least 20 percent of pregnancies are known to end in spontaneous abortion. If that results from divinely inspired anatomy, Dr. Ayala said, “God is the greatest abortionist of them all.”

Or consider, he said, the “sadism” in parasites that live by devouring their hosts, or the mating habits of insects like female midges, tiny flies that fertilize their eggs by consuming their mates’ genitals, along with all their other parts.

For the midges, Dr. Ayala said, “it makes evolutionary sense. If you are a male and you have mated, the best thing you can do for your genes is to be eaten.” But if God or some other intelligent agent made things this way on purpose, he said, “then he is a sadist, he certainly does odd things and he is a lousy engineer.”

From [www.nytimes.com]

The thing he hasn't quite grasped, I don't think, is that while he recognises that claiming God made things directly would render him "a sadist", "an abortionist" and "a lousy engineer", which are valid points, he still claims that God essentially created the evolutionary process, and if claims to God's omniprescience are to be believed, then God would still be directly responsible for these accusations, as God must have therefore known how evolution would turn out. It is these kinds of logical fallacies that are brought about by believing in irrational thought systems such as the Abrahamic religions.

At least he makes it quite clear to religious believers that evolution is a more rational explanation for the complexity of life than any contrived intelligent design proposal.

I disagree with him on his contention that science and religion are non-overlapping realms of knowledge though. This is another point that is well made in The God Delusion. Firstly, I don't see religious "knowledge" as being knowledge at all, just mere speculation at best. Secondly, if a religion makes claims on the physical world, such as the theistic Abrahamic religions do (which claim that God can and does directly intervene in the world on a regular basis through prayer, etc...), then clearly these religions are making claims on realms in which science can very well judge them on their merits. And of course there is no evidence to support a theistic belief system, as for example the experiments on prayer have repeatedly shown.

Cheers,
J


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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: musicbebe ()
Date: May 10, 2008 01:11AM

ugh...I have had the worst case of morning sickness! I felt nauseous around any food and even when I even looked at a tv or computer! Sorry I delayed so long in providing the quote that I said I would. You are right Jose, I really need to document an accusation like that. And was it community builder who said I was hypocritical for attacking Darwin when people attack and misrepresent the bible? I do see your point, but I thought I could make a much bigger case against Darwin than someone could the bible. But perhaps it would be better (at least for me at this point without being able to do much research)to argue on the actual merits of evidences for creation and evolution than how these philosophies are used. Anyhow here is the quote I was referring to:

Taken from Darwin’s “Descent of Man”

"We civilised men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilised societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man itself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed."

That was what I had seen and why I was so positive of his support on eugenics. But I kept looking for more and came upon the REST of the passage on an intelligent design site. Immediately after the previous passage I quoted Darwin writes:

"The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil."

That leaves me a little confused as to what he was actually saying. I really want to do more personal research into actual evidence of Darwin's support of eugenics before I say anything else. Others say there is much more evidence of Darwin's involvment with eugenics but it's no use me supporting that until I can see the evidence myself. Commentary on the Intelligent Design forum had some interesting comments on the intent of what Darwin really meant. Others pointed out more connections of evolution to eugenics, some which hit VERY close to Darwin's home. One of the most interesting to me anyhow was this one:

DaveScot wrote:

Practioners of eugenics and their sponsers were animalistic in behavior.

While I agree fully, and I applaud your calling attention to America’s role in this dark chapter of world history, I must also point out that the sponsors in question include:

1. Francis Galton - Charles Darwin’s cousin, pioneer of modern eugenics and founder of the Eugenics Society.

2. Leonard Darwin - Charles’ son, Galton’s successor in the Eugenics Society.

3. Francis Darwin - member of the Cambridge Eugenics Society.

4. Horace Darwin - member of the Cambridge Eugenics Society, Darwin Medalist 1912.

5. George Howard Darwin - Charles’ son, member of the Cambridge Eugenics Society.

6. Charles Galton Darwin - Charles’ grandson, Eugenics Society life fellow.

I would hope that Charles Darwin would be displeased with his close relatives being so entangled with the eugenics movement if had lived to see it.


That seems pretty damning, but technically stops short of more proof of Darwin himself supporting eugenics. Here is a link to this board I was talking about. People argue both sides. [www.uncommondescent.com]

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Re: Evolution IS a Blind Watchmaker
Posted by: Jose ()
Date: June 04, 2008 03:14PM

Excellent article describing one of the most important and significant experiments providing support for evolution beyond a reasonable doubt. I hope this will dispel any lingering doubts or myths surrounding evolution and natural selection.

Quote

A New Step In Evolution

Category: Microcosm: The Book
Posted on: June 2, 2008 9:41 PM, by Carl Zimmer

One of the most important experiments in evolution is going on right now in a laboratory in Michigan State University. A dozen flasks full of E. coli are sloshing around on a gently rocking table. The bacteria in those flasks has been evolving since 1988--for over 44,000 generations. And because they've been so carefully observed all that time, they've revealed some important lessons about how evolution works.

The experiment was launched by MSU biologist Richard Lenski. I wrote about Lenski's work last year in the New York Times, and in more detail my new book Microcosm. Lenski started off with a single microbe. It divided a few times into identical clones, from which Lenski started 12 colonies. He kept each of these 12 lines in its own flask. Each day he and his colleagues provided the bacteria with a little glucose, which was gobbled up by the afternoon. The next morning, the scientists took a small sample from each flask and put it in a new one with fresh glucose. And on and on and on, for 20 years and running.

...................................................

After 33,127 generations Lenski and his students noticed something strange in one of the colonies. The flask started to turn cloudy. This happens sometimes when contaminating bacteria slip into a flask and start feeding on a compound in the broth known as citrate. Citrate is made up of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen; it's essentially the same as the citric acid that makes lemons tart. Our own cells produce citrate in the long chain of chemical reactions that lets us draw energy from food. Many species of bacteria can eat citrate, but in an oxygen-rich environment like Lenski's lab, E. coli can't. The problem is that the bacteria can't pull the molecule in through their membranes. In fact, their failure has long been one of the defining hallmarks of E. coli as a species.

If citrate-eating bacteria invade the flasks, however, they can feast on the abundant citrate, and their exploding population turns the flask cloudy. This has only happened rarely in Lenski's experiment, and when it does, he and his colleagues throw out the flask and start the line again from its most recently frozen ancestors.

But in one remarkable case, however, they discovered that a flask had turned cloudy without any contamination. It was E. coli chowing down on the citrate. The researchers found that when they put the bacteria in pure citrate, the microbes could thrive on it as their sole source of carbon.

In nature, there have been a few reports of E. coli that can feed on citrate. But these oddballs all acquired a ring of DNA called a plasmid from some other species of bacteria. Lenski selected a strain of E. coli for his experiments that doesn't have any plasmids, there were no other bacteria in the experiment, and the evolved bacteria remain plasmid-free. So the only explanation was that this one line of E. coli had evolved the ability to eat citrate on its own.

Blount took on the job of figuring out what happened. He first tried to figure out when it happened. He went back through the ancestral stocks to see if they included any citrate-eaters. For the first 31,000 generations, he could find none. Then, in generation 31,500, they made up 0.5% of the population. Their population rose to 19% in the next 1000 generations, but then they nearly vanished at generation 33,000. But in the next 120 generations or so, the citrate-eaters went berserk, coming to dominate the population.

This rise and fall and rise suggests that the evolution of citrate-eating was not a one-mutation affair. The first mutation (or mutations) allowed the bacteria to eat citrate, but they were outcompeted by some glucose-eating mutants that still had the upper hand. Only after they mutated further did their citrate-eating become a recipe for success.

..............................................

Now the scientists must determine the precise genetic steps these bacteria took to evolve from glucose-eaters to citrate-eaters. In order to eat a particular molecule, E. coli needs a special channel in its membranes through which to draw it. It's possible, for example, that a channel dedicated to some other molecule mutated into a form that could also take in citrate. Later mutations could have fine-tuned it so that it could suck in citrate quickly.

If E. coli is defined as a species that can't eat citrate, does that mean that Lenski's team has witnessed the origin of a new species? The question is actually murkier than it seems, because the traditional concept of species doesn't fit bacteria very comfortably. (For the details, check out my new article on Scientific American, "What is a Species?"winking smiley In nature, E. coli swaps lots of genes with other species. In just the past 15 years or so, for example, one disease-causing strain of E. coli acquired hundreds of genes not found in closely related E. coli strains. (See my recent article in Slate.) Another hallmark of E. coli is its ability to break down lactose, the sugar in milk. But several strains have lost the ability to break it down. (In fact, these strains were originally given a different name--Shigella--until scientists realized that they were just weird strains of E. coli.)

Nevertheless, Lenski and his colleagues have witnessed a significant change. And their new paper makes clear that just because the odds of such a significant change are incredibly rare doesn't mean that it can't happen. Natural selection, in fact, ensures that sometimes it does. And, finally, it demonstrates that after twenty years, Lenski's invisible dynasty still has some surprises in store.

The rest and a short video here [scienceblogs.com]

Cheers,
J


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