"But what if there is a true spiritual power who was been wildly mis-represented by religious dogma? And whose true existence can only be perceived by humans when they strictly adhere to the laws of the universe?"

It's an alluring thought. But I can't buy it.

"Then all those who choose not to adhere to the universal laws will be "deceived," as their brain chemistry will prevent them from perceiving the spiritual dimension."

Many people, through no fault of their own, are born with brain defects and chemistry out of whack--sociopaths, schizoids, autistics, schizophrenics, borderlines, narcissists, histrionics, and depressives to name a few. These people have faulty wiring systems and abnormal EEGs. Are such people preordained then, to be doomed, to be forever locked out from access to this true spiritual power?

It's mean, if you ask me. Nobody would choose to be born that way. But the laws of the universe regarding personality and other brain disorders dictates that mistakes do happen and propagate. It is a very twisted fact that sociopaths have more than their "fair" share of children and a good fraction of their children will also be sociopathic because there is a genetic component.

I believe that some people can train themselves to be more placid, to feel more attuned to nature, to give and receive joy, etc. But I also believe that the possibility is restricted to those who are not only born with the appropriate machinery but also not too badly damaged by their environments in their formative years.

The ability to have an NDE might also be "preordained" by brain chemistry and organization.

Psychol Sci. 2004 Apr;15(4):254-8.
Near-death experiences and the temporal lobe.
Britton WB, Bootzin RR.


Many studies in humans suggest that altered temporal lobe functioning, especially functioning in the right temporal lobe, is involved in mystical and religious experiences. We investigated temporal lobe functioning in individuals who reported having transcendental "near-death experiences" during life-threatening events. These individuals were found to have more temporal lobe epileptiform electroencephalographic activity than control subjects and also reported significantly more temporal lobe epileptic symptoms. Contrary to predictions, epileptiform activity was nearly completely lateralized to the left hemisphere. The near-death experience was not associated with dysfunctional stress reactions such as dissociation, posttraumatic stress disorder, and substance abuse, but rather was associated with positive coping styles. Additional analyses revealed that near-death experiencers had altered sleep patterns, specifically, a shorter duration of sleep and delayed REM sleep relative to the control group. These results suggest that altered temporal lobe functioning may be involved in the near-death experience and that individuals who have had such experiences are physiologically distinct from the general population.

PMID: 15043643 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The epilepsy link is also known and another example of brain chemistry dictating "spirituality." Some epileptics have profound religiosity, cf Saul/Paul, Dostoyevsky, Joan of Arc.

arugula

i think the salient message that omega was trying to get at was NOT so much that certain people will be "barred" from being receptive to spiritual "messages" ( for lack of a better word) due to innate wiring,

the focus was perhaps more on the converse side which is that those who make a concerted effort to cleanse their physical vessels of toxins will be more better able to be a conduit

that being said, the people, whose conditions which u mentioned above are perhaps even MORE able to be receptive to certain things that most people who are "normal" will be barred from

this is not to say that all those things are "pleasant"... it is just stating an observation... that's all

also, it is well known that those with more than usual activities in the temporal lobe regions are able to perceive things in a much more lucid ( though this has its side effects) fashion than most


also, another thing to consider is this:

simply because it has been "proven" ( which it has, actually) that certain brain regions are more "active" during "hallucinations" etc

this may not exclude the fact that those visions are "real"

in other words, simply because science has proven that a chemical/electrical brain activity component is concurrent with the "hallucinations/voices" etc

does not necessarily mean that it stands to follow that the thing that is "perceived" could not possibly exist

why should this be the case?

if this is the case, please state your reason, proof etc.

until it is proven that the unseen does not exist ( simply because it is not seen by the majority)

until it is proven that the source of the "unheard" does not exist, simply because it is not heard by the majority

until it is proven that the source of the "unfelt" does not exist, simply because it was not felt by the majority

the question mark still remains a question mark and not a period

PERIOD

I believe that people do have NDEs, hallucinations, paroxysms of religious ecstasy, etc. and that they are very real to those people, can be profoundly life-changing, etc. And yes of course I belive that there are degrees of receptivity.

What I don't believe is that they are indicative of a personal God, an afterlife, or anything like that. Some people have transcendant experiences without attributing them with connotations of spirituality.

Some of us are hard wired to be drawn to mysticism, and some of us aren't and that's what I think all this discussion is really about.

Most of us are in between and will gravitate towards wanting to believe that we are somehow more than the sum of our parts. I think it is a narcissistic view. In a world of 6.81 billion people who are trashing the planet and one another with alacrity, I tend to believe that most of us are less, not more. With few exceptions.

But I also believe that people can change for the better. I don't see how this has anything to do with an afterlife or a master plan or a higher power. Virtue is its own reward and that's enough for me.

the thing that makes me stop and wonder is just that. if the experience is real to the person experiencing it then it IS real. period. but only to them. does that make it less real than something that is experienced by many? how many people experiencing or not experiencing something does it take to prove whether something is in fact real? perhaps what is real for each is as real as it gets and the trick is to accept what you believe as right and real for you, what each believes as right and real for him or her.

yeah, like when person A falls in love with person B, it is REAL for person A.

it may not even be real for person B LOL

oh and u can't prove it either

but it means a great deal

okay... not a great example... but i kinda like it anyhow...

and don't anyone quip in with endocrine system,hormones etc. for 'proof"

its too crass for the real thing... which is in the spirit and cannot truly be measured in exactitude

arugula,

<<Virtue is its own reward and that's enough for me.>>

well, then that is your truth

its not enough for me

and that is my truth

who is to say whose truth is legitimate?

there is no legitimate referee in this discussion

we are all players only

[ yeah, like when person A falls in love with person B, it is REAL for person A.
it may not even be real for person B LOL ]

Yes. This just happened to me. I was person A.

[oh and u can't prove it either
but it means a great deal
okay... not a great example... but i kinda like it anyhow...
and don't anyone quip in with endocrine system,hormones etc. for 'proof"
its too crass for the real thing... which is in the spirit and cannot truly be measured in exactitude ]

Yes you can measure it. One thing to measure is oxytocin and it is an ancient hormone that dates back to the hagfish Ca 500 million years ago. But I know what you mean. Still feeling shellshocked and bamboozled. It was very real to me. But it was chemicals that made it feel so real. I would like to think that there is something to be learned from it. That I was guided to this person for a reason.
I know what it was: a wakeup call to frikkin grow up and give up on that one last unrealistic dream. I would rather have learned this lesson in a less painful way. But maybe that's what it took for me to learn it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2008 11:06PM by arugula.

arugula

that hurts

ouch!

here is a green raw spinach band aid for your soul

i hope it heals soon

and yeah, i always think that i learn something from people even if things don't work out as i wanted it to

if u aren't with him, it probably means that it wasn't meant to be

one of my best friend tells me

" Don't throw your pearls to swine"

remembahhhh that

oh yeah, the " don't throw pearl to swine" was also in the bible

but i don't think it was in reference to dating advice

something else

those who know, know what it refers to

those people are person A

sometimes i think that those who read the bible find beautiful gems including myself

then other parts of it seem appalling ( like all the brutalities, slayings etc in the Old Testament)

sometimes it feels contradictory

at other times, it seems like I can piece ANY pice of information together that are totally dichotomous and make sense of it

other times, i just

s
h
u
t

m
y

m
i
n
d

and feel the peace that is inherent regardless of sects scriptures soporific scholarly sanctioned statutes

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


that is where it is for me

"the space in between the notes"

that is where i live

that is my address

that is my home

so quiet

before the next note comes crashing through the keys

My dad said that, too. He said, "Stay away from junky individuals, you deserve better." He was definitely junk but I loved him.

Thanks for ths spinach, it feels better already.

There is some beautiful stuff in the bible but you have to hunt for it. I like Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, some of the stuff in the four gospels and some of the stuff in Saul/Paul's letters like that beautiful love is patient thing in I Corinthians that actually was from a Hellenistic piece that he modified.

As a whole the bible is a mishmash from various writers, different styles, different times, and different and levels of violence. The guys who voted on what books got included had an agenda that I will never understand.

You remember that song by the Byrds: Turn, Turn, Turn? That's from Ecclesiastes.

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time for every purpose under heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time for every purpose under heaven

A time to build up, a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones
A time to gather stones together

A time of war, a time of peace
A time of love, a time of hate
A time you may embrace
A time to refrain from embracing

A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time to love, a time to hate
A time of peace, I swear it's not too late!

I like you arugula. As you already know.

*coco loves arugula*

the salad green is pretty good too

i like that song a lot, i can hear it in my mind as i read the lyrics. i think i'll search around in my files and see if i have it somewhere.

you know, i love that feeling of being in love and the sharp tang of ouchy painness that can come along with it. it's like mustard greens in a salad of sweet leaves. it adds just the right amount of spice, you know? i wouldn't give up that feeling for anything and there is no way that i'll give up falling in, certainly not based on whether that person will or won't love me back. their love for me really makes no difference after all, the only feelings i feel are my own, right? i'm after the soaring high and crushing lows of my own experience that way. i love being in love, it's like nothing else. if the recient reciprocates that's the avocado icing on the raw carrot cake. just a little extra bonus. heh.

I love you guys!

some say that falling in love is like " Touching the Face of God"

okay... i forget the name of that poem that has that last line in it

someone here must know

i know someone out there does

y'all are secretly a bunch of poetry nerds...

heh hehh



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2008 03:46PM by la_veronique.

okay,, no volunteers, i see

i might as well take up the cross ( well, its the right thread to be talking in such a manner)

here it is .. its called " High Flight" and its by John Gillespie Magee jr.

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds, — and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of — wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air. . . .

Up, up the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or ever eagle flew —
And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

— John Gillespie Magee, Jr


Well, all i can think of when i read this is that he must have been in love

I think I have been contaminated by my upbringing. When I think of powerfully uplifting spiritual stuff I fall back on Latin and Bach.

Magnificat anima mea Dominum
Et exsultavit spiritus meus
in Deo salutari meo.

My soul magnifies the Lord
and my spirit exults
in God my savior.

[youtube.com]

The two Voyagers, those little spacecraft sent out to explore the universe and say "Hi" from earth, had some Bach recordings. That's like bragging.

if it was Mozart, it would be more like bragging

if it was Edward Elgar's "Nimrod" , it would be blatant braggart- ing ( those who have heard it know what i'm talking about)

chime in, if u like this piece by Elgar

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many people, through no fault of their own, are
> born with brain defects and chemistry out of
> whack--sociopaths, schizoids, autistics,
> schizophrenics, borderlines, narcissists,
> histrionics, and depressives to name a few. These
> people have faulty wiring systems and abnormal
> EEGs. Are such people preordained then, to be
> doomed, to be forever locked out from access to
> this true spiritual power?

Good question. The conditions you listed are all basically dysfunctions of the nervous system. For people suffering with these conditions, the possibility of spiritual experience is extremely UNIMPORTANT; the priority for all of them would be to heal the nervous system (which the medical establishment will say is not possible).

> It's mean, if you ask me. Nobody would choose to
> be born that way. But the laws of the universe
> regarding personality and other brain disorders
> dictates that mistakes do happen and propagate.

There's a great quote: "In Nature there are neither punishments nor rewards -- there are consequences."

The laws of the universe dictate physical and mental disorders only so far as we choose (and our forebears chose) to ignore those laws.

> The ability to have an NDE might also be
> "preordained" by brain chemistry and
> organization.

> "These results suggest that altered temporal lobe functioning may be involved
> in the near-death experience and that individuals who have had such
> experiences are physiologically distinct from the general population."

Sounds like the scientists didn't leave open the possibility that it was the NDE that caused heightened temporal lobe activity, and not the other way around. From my perspective and from reading only the brief summary, it appears that the study is predicated on a faulty assumption -- that brain activity prior to the experience must have been the same as brain activity after the experience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2008 07:34PM by Omega.

[Sounds like the scientists didn't leave open the possibility that it was the NDE that caused heightened temporal lobe activity, and not the other way around. From my perspective and from reading only the brief summary, it appears that the study is predicated on a faulty assumption -- that brain activity prior to the experience must have been the same as brain activity after the experience.]

Good point, I hadn't thought of it.