Something has been on my mind a lot. In regards to body hair on females in particular:

I know some come from an evolutionary perspective, that we, as decendants of apes are slowing losing all our hair. I come from a creationist perspective that we are created by God. So for me, I think God must have had some PURPOSE for giving us all hair there and I wonder was it really just so we could shave it off??

As a culture, here in America, many females shave their armpit and leg hairs. Are we doing a disservice to our bodies in doing so? What are your thoughts on the modern day function that these hairs provide us? Has anyone let these hairs grow wild and did it do your body any physical good?

wow.. what a great question

imaginative too

i remember hearing about those two girls who were raised by wolves in India ( true story) I don't know exactly how those girls got there or why they were in the forest ( did their parents just "leave" them there?)

At any rate, their legs became bent like wolves and their arms became like legs. the other interesting thing was that their entire body became covered with hair like the wolves. maybe because the wolves didn't wear coats , sweaters or jackets.. the hair was their jacket.. and same for those girls

i don't have a link or anything to that story

i'm sure someone else does... cuz it was very well known

so... i guess all i can think of is temperature control

now , it seems like a vestigial feature since modernity has manufactured fur coats instead of relying on our own fur (body hair)

well, some of it is obvious. hair in the crotchal area is there for protection and also to retain a sexually appealing scent, same with arm pit hair. it's also a visual sign or readiness to procreate designed to stimulate the senses in the opposite sex. just goes to show how sick society has become that the total opposite of that is considered the epitome of sexy now.
eyebrows and eyelashes are there to protect the eyes from sweat and particulates.
arm, leg, chest and back hair? well, chest is to show maturity i'm sure but the rest, maybe for warmth but i don't know.

by the way, i have never understood how people can think that god and evolution are separate things. unless you are dead set on believing the bible word for word, as in the earth was created in three (by our standards) days and all that. which just seems silly to me, i mean come on. the bible is a book of metaphores.
anyhow, the guiding spirit of the universe seems to me to be one of inate wisdom and evolution seems like a pretty great way to get people and other creatures out of raw material. does that seem ungodlike to you? it doesn't to me.

Coco,

Well that is one way of looking at it. To me, it is easier to believe that God created everything. We humans create: we build buildings and machines and very, very intricate things. Life is so much more intricate and also points to having a designer. I grew up an athiest and believed in the bible due to study into creationism. Yes, there are good hard facts that support it. None of us were there when the earth was created, so all we can do is interepret the facts that we have today. I also became open to raw foodism because the bible says we were originally created to be vegetarians and that in the end every creature will be vegetarian again. That gives me a lot more hope than evolution which gives no reason for the "Red in tooth and claw" and no hope from ever escaping that reality. And I do believe that we can adapt to our evironment. No one has EVER observed one kind of animal turning into another. Creationists and evolutionists interpret the fossil record differently. And coming from someone (me) who has looked at both sides of the scientific evidence and interpretation (I was once a hard core evolutionist), you must give creationist scientific study a try to understand why we believe it. You may not come to accept it, but you would say "wow, I can understand now, why they say that." How about joining the thread on evolution in this same forum to continue this discussion.

Now back to body hair....

Those were the only things I could also think of in regards to why our hair is there. But does it hold true in actuality? Does anyone actually have a sexual partner who appreciates your underarm smell? I would think after being on the raw food diet, maybe we smell better? Has anyone actually found that to be true? Does anyone have a partner who's said "now that you grew your armpit hair back, I'm more attracted to you?" I'm thinking leg hair helps us know when bugs are crawling on us??

<<Does anyone actually have a sexual partner who appreciates your underarm smell? I would think after being on the raw food diet, maybe we smell better? Has anyone actually found that to be true? Does anyone have a partner who's said "now that you grew your armpit hair back, I'm more attracted to you?>>

that's pretty funny/hilarious the way you worded it
and it made me laugh

however, my ignorance notwithstanding, i am sure that coco has a good point in regards to that aspect .... if i can get over my own laughter to actually ponder it some more, i think i get it

pheromones, for instance.... perhaps those are the chemicals that are trapped by hair which is also manifested in the scent

which goes hand in hand with what coco was saying

at any rate, musicbebe

i can certainly appreciate someone who has taken the time to investigate BOTH sides of the creationist/evolutionist issue

though, there are some who will contend that they are not separate

and some who will say that they are

and some who will go ahead and investigate both and say " i don't know for sure... but something seems amiss here"

still, it is good to delve into it and come to one's own conclusion

rather than blindly follow someone else's notion

I hate the way kids now are obsessing on getting rid of all their body hair. My 12 year old is shaving her legs, even in winter, because she hates the hair. And then she's just a kid, so she cuts herself. It's a bad situation. And she's always hating the hair on her arms, saying it's too dark and thick.

Again, that's one advantage of getting older - less body hair

get her to wax lois, i highly recommend it. it's a big girl thing, it might appeal to her on that level. it costs far less in the long run, leaves no scars and lasts way longer plus hair will grow back thinner over time.

while i struggle with accepting my leg hair i LOVE the hair under my arms and yes, my last partner was very adverse to me shaving anything at all. a trim in the nether regions was ok for, ahem, navigation purposes but he was very, very pleased once he'd talked me into not shaving my legs. heh. and yes, part of it was a scent thing though i do not smell like anything even when it's hot out and that was eternally irksome to him, he wanted me to be sweaty, he found that very sexy. strange man but i really liked being appreciated in such a primal way, it was very elemental and sexy. very.


i have no time to study right now but perhaps the kids and i will study those things later on when they have an interest. i am trying to allow all perspectives in their schooling so they can make up their own minds about what they believe to be true.

[ Does anyone actually have a sexual partner who appreciates your underarm smell?]

Yes. If he is really attracted to you he will love your smell.

[ I would think after being on the raw food diet, maybe we smell better? Has anyone actually found that to be true? ]

Yes. But, when I was doing high protein (rice protein, which is processed at a low temperature) on high raw I smelled worse. I smell better without it.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [ Does anyone actually have a sexual partner who
> appreciates your underarm smell?]
>
> Yes. If he is really attracted to you he will love
> your smell.

That is so beautifully true, Arugula.

Coco, the spa that I would go to costs $50 to wax the lower leg. Is that still more cost effective than shaving IYO? I'm hoping you say yes, but that seems kind of expensive to me.

wow, $50 for lower leg only? that seems like a lot to me but it's been a while since i waxed. if you can find a esthetics school locally they usually do a very good job for a fraction of the price, check it out.

"Does anyone actually have a sexual partner who appreciates your underarm smell?"

Of course.

Re : thread topic. If you come from the premise of Creationism then we have body hair for whatever reason God decided to give it to us. No need for logic or curiosity, it is because God wanted it to be, end of story.

Now if you're curious as to the real reason we have some body hair, that's another story. But you've already stated in your first post you're not interested in that since you want to believe that we just came out of God's cookie cutter fully formed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 06:24AM by communitybuilder.

>I would think after being on the raw food diet, maybe we smell better?

For shore!

inspirit - aka coolkarma

well, the rest of us might be interested in why you think we've got body hair communitybuilder so post away!

guys, i don't smell any different when i am raw than when i am not.

community bee builder

<<Now if you're curious as to the real reason we have some body hair, that's another story. But you've already stated in your first post you're not interested in that since you want to believe that we just came out of God's cookie cutter fully formed.>>

now what i am REALLY curious about is if its true that we are a cookie cut out version of God ( like it intimates in the bible... somewhere....)

also, i want to purchase the cookie cutter that God uses.. you think I can get that at Rite Aid? err.. maybe Walmart?

that would be cool if i can make some raw pecan raisin cookies using that

Communitybuilder,

Well, that comes across rather harsh to me. In fact I don't believe we are all made from the same cookie cutter--that would go against some major christian principles. We all are beautifully unique...total individuals. God encourages discovery of his world, according to the bible. In fact many discoveries, such as the earth not being the center of the universe, and the earth being round, not flat, came from persons who studied the bible to come to those conclusions (could find refrences if anyone's curious). As for the "true" reason we have body hair that's what I'm after...I simply stated where I was coming from and that I knew others had a different perspective. I did not attempt to stifle any conversation. I always appreciate knowing where others are coming from and don't make them feel foolish for stating beliefs that are different from mine. So if you come from an evolutionary perspective, tell us what you think!

Also, on a hunch that some people may have a problem with christians (not pointing fingers!), make sure you don't let one bad apple ( or many, if you've had the unfortunate time of knowing some) spoil the bunch for you.I wouldn't blame most, if you go by how the media portrays christians (meat loving, environment hating, war mongering--yuck! I don't think god likes em either!). I can't imagine anyone here lashing out at a muslim for believing what they do, or a spiritist, yet I have definitely noticed christians getting some flack. But there is such a wide variety of beliefs in christianity and I don't fit any mold I know of. If I ever espouse hatred, or am mean to others then by all means put me in my place, but believing we are created of god makes me neither.

Back to body hair...

I am still a little stinky myself. Still detoxing I think. My husband doesn't seem to mind. Maybe I should start believing him instead of being self conscious! Hearing those of you say your partner likes the smell is reassuring. Who else has a say?

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well, the rest of us might be interested in why
> you think we've got body hair communitybuilder so
> post away!

I think you covered most of the bases.

I wonder why pigs don't have much body hair.

>
> guys, i don't smell any different when i am raw
> than when i am not.

Me neither, maybe a little.



la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> also, i want to purchase the cookie cutter that
> God uses.. you think I can get that at Rite Aid?
> err.. maybe Walmart?
>

Hi V. I have good news! You don't have to buy anything! The cookie cutter that "God uses" (through you) is already in your possession. It's in your belly.



musicbebe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> God encourages
> discovery of his world, according to the bible. In
> fact many discoveries, such as the earth not being
> the center of the universe, and the earth being
> round, not flat, came from persons who studied the
> bible to come to those conclusions (could find
> refrences if anyone's curious).

I'm highly skeptical. You realize what Christians did to men of science back in the day, don't you? Galileo studied the skies not the Bible. If he did try to proclaim that scripture (claiming the Earth is unmovable and the sun orbits the Earth) actually doesn't contradict his findings it's because he didn't want to lose his head.



> As for the "true"
> reason we have body hair that's what I'm after...I
> simply stated where I was coming from and that I
> knew others had a different perspective. I did not
> attempt to stifle any conversation.

But you stated up front that you're interested in the religious not scientific explanation. This eliminates about 90% of conversation. It's kind of like asking how to calculate pool shots but prefacing it with saying you don't believe in physics.

> I always
> appreciate knowing where others are coming from
> and don't make them feel foolish for stating
> beliefs that are different from mine. So if you
> come from an evolutionary perspective, tell us
> what you think!
>

I haven't studied the question in much depth. I suspect the answer has to do with climate and the differences between human and ape physiology. Also worth noting is that body hair is very different among different peoples of the Earth. Most Native Ameircans for example (as far as I know) don't have facial hair.

> Also, on a hunch that some people may have a
> problem with christians (not pointing fingers!),
> make sure you don't let one bad apple ( or many,
> if you've had the unfortunate time of knowing
> some) spoil the bunch for you.I wouldn't blame
> most, if you go by how the media portrays
> christians (meat loving, environment hating, war
> mongering--yuck! I don't think god likes em
> either!). I can't imagine anyone here lashing out
> at a muslim for believing what they do, or a
> spiritist, yet I have definitely noticed
> christians getting some flack. But there is such a
> wide variety of beliefs in christianity and I
> don't fit any mold I know of. If I ever espouse
> hatred, or am mean to others then by all means put
> me in my place, but believing we are created of
> god makes me neither.
>

I don't mind all Christians and quite like some of them. Keep in mind though that most educated Christians don't take the Bible literally though.


> Back to body hair...
>
> I am still a little stinky myself. Still detoxing
> I think. My husband doesn't seem to mind. Maybe I
> should start believing him instead of being self
> conscious! Hearing those of you say your partner
> likes the smell is reassuring. Who else has a say?

There is a lot of conditioning to make us believe that having any smell whatsoever is "wrong" (by deorderent companies mostly). Personally, I never bough into it and always remember liking my smell (even at 11, 12 years old when I'm smell myself after I worked out).

better to wonder why the sea cow doesn't have body hair than the pig i think. they are more like us, are they not? they have the unique mammary gland positioning (under the arm area) that we have, and they cry too. interesting creatures. there is some info about our similarities in elaine morgan's The Descent of Woman (not that i believe wholeheartedly in her entire premise, i just find a lot of it very interesting).

pigs and elephants roll in mud to keep warm, cool, etc in place of body hair. and they do have some scraggley patches of it here and there too.

there certainly is a lot of conditioning out there to make us loathe our own natural selves! how ever would all those companies survive if we all started thinking that our teeth are white enough, our lashes are long enough, our skin and hair is the right colour, we are the right weight, height and shape, our breasts are the right size and in the right position, etc etc etc? my word, they would all go out of business and we can't have that now then can we?
i like my lover's morning breath, thankyouverymuch. i greatly prefer it to a face full of artificial minty grossness. and i'll take the armpit over the YSL anyday. so take that corporate america (more like corporation earth but it hurts me to say it like that). screw that noise.

one last thing, to preface this seemingly innocent question with a religious slant was sort of asking for this kind of discussion. i wonder why not just ask the question simply and then pick and choose the answers that fit in with your beliefs as you like?

and now i am off to kiss my cookies, oops i mean my children, goodnight.

Nature 447, 753 (14 June 2007)

Evolution and the brain

Abstract:

With all deference to the sensibilities of religious people, the idea that man was created in the image of God can surely be put aside.

The vast majority of scientists, and the majority of religious people, see little potential for pleasure or progress in the conflicts between religion and science that are regularly fanned into flame by a relatively small number on both sides of the debate. Many scientists are religious, and perceive no conflict between the values of their science — values that insist on disinterested, objective inquiry into the nature of the Universe — and those of their faith.

But there are lines that should not be crossed, and in a recent defence of his beliefs and disbeliefs in the matter of evolution, US Senator Sam Brownback (Republican, Kansas) crosses at least one. Senator Brownback was one of three Republican presidential candidates who, in a recent debate, described himself as not believing in evolution. He sought to explain his position with greater nuance in a 31 May article in The New York Times, in which he wrote: "Man was not an accident and reflects an image and likeness unique in the created order. Those aspects of evolutionary theory compatible with this truth are a welcome addition to human knowledge. Aspects of these theories that undermine this truth, however, should be firmly rejected as atheistic theology posing as science."

Humans evolved, body and mind, from earlier primates. The ways in which humans think reflect this heritage as surely as the ways in which their limbs are articulated, their immune systems attack viruses and the cones in their eyes process coloured light. This applies not just to the way in which our neurons fire, but also to various aspects of our moral thought, as we report this week in a News Feature on the moral connotations of disgust (see page 768). The way that disgust functions in our lives and shapes our moral decisions reflects not just cultural training, but also biological evolution. Current theorizing on this topic, although fascinating, may be wide of the mark. But its basis in the idea that human minds are the product of evolution is not atheistic theology. It is unassailable fact.

This does not utterly invalidate the idea that the human mind is, as Senator Brownback would have it, a reflection of the mind of God. But the suggestion that any entity capable of creating the Universe has a mind encumbered with the same emotional structures and perceptual framework as that of an upright ape adapted to living in small, intensely social peer-groups on the African savannah seems a priori unlikely.

In Brownback's defence, it should be acknowledged that these are deep waters. It is fairly easy to accept the truth of evolution when it applies to the external world — the adaptation of the orchid to wasps, for example, or the speed of the cheetah. It is much harder to accept it internally — to accept that our feelings, intuitions, the ways in which we love and loathe, are the product of experience, evolution and culture alone. And such acceptance has challenges for the unbeliever, too. Moral philosophers often put great store by their rejection of the 'naturalistic fallacy', the belief that because something is a particular way, it ought to be that way. Now we learn that untutored beliefs about 'what ought to be' do, in fact, reflect an 'is': the state of the human mind as an evolved entity. Accepting this represents a challenge that few as yet have really grappled with.

It remains uncertain how the new sciences of human behaviour emerging at the intersections of anthropology, evolutionary biology and neuropsychology can best be navigated. But that does not justify their denunciation on the basis of religious faith alone. Scientific theories of human nature may be discomforting or unsatisfying, but they are not illegitimate. And serious attempts to frame them will reflect the origins of the human mind in biological and cultural evolution, without reference to a divine creation

hmmm... a somehwat interesting article

yeah.. from time immemorial, scientists have lept into the philosophical and melded into the religious then became seamlessly dissolved into the rapturous

science can be a portal into the unseen ( spiritual)

and then... they mysteries just seem to infinitely compound thereafter

Kundalini yoga practitioners believe that hair has a relationship to a person's electromagnetic field. Any modifications to the hair growing on any part of one's body (even the eye brows) would have an affect on one's electromagnetic field and the physical body as well and could have the end effect of various diseases or conditions.

hyldemoer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kundalini yoga practitioners believe that hair has
> a relationship to a person's electromagnetic
> field. Any modifications to the hair growing on
> any part of one's body (even the eye brows) would
> have an affect on one's electromagnetic field and
> the physical body as well and could have the end
> effect of various diseases or conditions.

That's interesting. I stopped cutting any of my hair several years ago and I'm very happy with that decision.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

hyldemoer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kundalini yoga practitioners believe that hair has
> a relationship to a person's electromagnetic
> field. Any modifications to the hair growing on
> any part of one's body (even the eye brows) would
> have an affect on one's electromagnetic field and
> the physical body as well and could have the end
> effect of various diseases or conditions.


Is there any evidence backing that up or is it just superstition?

I'm leaning towards the latter.

re god...

"Is there any evidence backing that up or is it just superstition?

I'm leaning towards the latter."

come on now, if you're going to doubt, doubt it all. one is no more likely than the other.

Well, if it's true, it also applies to skin, nails, and teeth. Does this mean we are not allowed to clip our toenails?

And I don't like the bleached out sun damage (mine gets orange from dark brown) and split ends that come from having long hair very much.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> re god...
>
> "Is there any evidence backing that up or is it
> just superstition?
>
> I'm leaning towards the latter."
>
> come on now, if you're going to doubt, doubt it
> all. one is no more likely than the other.

One is always more likely than the other.

If long hair gave men Samson like strength how come all the guys in the UFC are bald.

i think something to do with the hair that is actually on my body is more likely than a story about a dude sitting on a golden throne in the sky.

what's the UFC?

lol... because we are born with it

12 year olds can have body hair??

lol... yes, it just doesnt get course and dark till after puberty

Communitybuilder, you said:

"But you stated up front that you're interested in the religious not scientific explanation. This eliminates about 90% of conversation. It's kind of like asking how to calculate pool shots but prefacing it with saying you don't believe in physics."

I'm sorry you took it that way, but I clarified what I meant by what I wrote in my previous post. Additionally, you compare apples with oranges when you insinuate that evolution is as undeniable as physics. Evolution is still a theory. In fact, so is creationism, technically. You can't prove evolution in action (I am referring to one kind of animal changing to another, which has not been observed. Variations and adaptations WITHIN a kind have been observed and those changes are totally in line with creationism) and we can't go back to see God creating either. We can only interpret the fossil records and data we see today and draw conclusions from them. With physics we can directly observe and test theories of motion and other phenomena and prove certain things to be consistent and true. Maybe if someone invents a time machine we can do the same with discovering our origins, but until then, or until someone shows me a monkey giving birth to a human, you can't compare evolution with physics. With all the advances being made in science, you wonder if man will find some way to genetically manipulate one kind of animal into giving birth to another, but remember, then it would be man aiding in creation...sort of like....God??? And then it wouldn't be occurring through undirected processes as evolution presupposes.

Another reason I posted my beliefs on creation was to preface any commentary I would end up making on this topic, so you would know where I was coming from. I have made my beliefs on creationism known in discussions from several months ago and, like how you originally stated, some people have this impression that Christians don't question how God made things. So I specifically stated that I believe there must be a purpose. In fact, I think most evolutionists agree there is a purpose for it as well

" I don't mind all Christians and quite like some of them. Keep in mind though that most educated Christians don't take the Bible literally though."

...And most educated medical professionals believe the raw food diet is just as foolish. The popularity of a belief does not determine it's truthfulness. And "edumacation" doesn't always do a lot of good either Maybe I can at least become one of the christians you don't mind...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2008 01:52AM by musicbebe.