The following article is showing up on major news
websites on the Internet. Note the "best" sources
for not "shrinking the brain."

Eating veggies shrinks the brain
14 Sep 2008, 0103 hrs IST,AGENCIES

MELBOURNE: Scientists have discovered that going veggie
could be bad for your brain - with those on a meat-free
diet six times more likely to suffer brain shrinkage.

Vegans and vegetarians are the most likely to be deficient
because the best sources of the vitamin are meat, particularly
liver, milk and fish. Vitamin B12 deficiency can also cause
anaemia and inflammation of the nervous system. Yeast extracts
are one of the few vegetarian foods which provide good levels
of the vitamin.

The link was discovered by Oxford University scientists
who used memory tests, physical checks and brain scans to
examine 107 people between the ages of 61 and 87.

When the volunteers were retested five years later the
medics found those with the lowest levels of vitamin B12
were also the most likely to have brain shrinkage. It
confirms earlier research showing a link between brain
atrophy and low levels of B12.

Brain scans of more than 1,800 people found that people who
downed 14 drinks or more a week had 1.6% more brain shrinkage
than teetotallers. Women in their seventies were the most at risk.

Beer does less damage than wine according to a study in Alcohol
and Alcoholism.

Researchers found that the hippocampus-the part of the brain
that stores memories - was 10% smaller in beer drinkers than
those who stuck to wine.

And being overweight or obese is linked to brain loss, Swedish
researchers discovered. Scans of around 300 women found that
those with brain shrink had an average body mass index of 27
And for every one point increase in their BMI the loss rose
by 13 to 16%.

Steve
[www.meetup.com]
[www.rawgosia.com]

I would like to hear more about where they pulled the numbers for that statistic. =S

In any case, % of fruit in a diet is directly proportional to brain size, at least concerning primate species. >8)

Sounds like the scientists are a bunch of pinheads.

where's the original crap article?

It seems like the research indicated low B-12 corresponded to brain shrinkage. However, someone concluded then that vegans and vegetarians would be most at risk for this, which doesn't make sense, since vegetarians get plenty of dietary B-12. And vegans, while they have low dietary B-12, are not often deficient in B-12 in their bodies.

Other more responsible recent media had headlines like this:

Vitamin B12 May Protect Against Brain Shrinkage
Alzheimer's Society Comment On Vitamin B12 And Rate Of Brain Volume Loss In Older People In The Community

Here is the research: http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/71/11/826.

Low B-12 may be a symptom here, not a cause. And no mention of vegans or vegetarians.

that's what i thought too bryan, it seemed to be more about a lack of b-12 than being veg. that was just a catchy title i guess.

well, considering most people think too much instead of doing or just BE ing
maybe shrinking the brain isn't such a bad idea

" lose your mind and come to your senses"

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what "brain skrinkage"
means in the first place! Maybe it's not such a
bad thing.

We already know that SAD eaters typically have big
heads (over their zeal for cooked foods) in the first
place, so maybe a little brain skrinkage is in order.

Steve
[www.meetup.com]
[www.rawgosia.com]

I wonder what a McDonalds happy meal does to the brain.
We already know what it does to some peoples wallets.
Some get fat,and ours shrink.

Brian

Raw1228 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder what a McDonalds happy meal does to the
> brain.
>

Perhaps it causes you to believe the silly nonsense in the article above. As a raw foodist, both my mental clarity and mental health have improved considerably.

Raw1228 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder what a McDonalds happy meal does to the
> brain.
>

There are a bunch of politicians that don't want you to know the answer to this question. A few weeks ago the US Supreme Court said it was OK for the Bush administration to disallow certain beef vendors from doing 100% testing of their beef for Mad Cow's disease, because it would put the other beef vendors at a market disadvantage to not be able to put on their labels that their beef was 100% tested for Mad Cow's. In the UK, 30% of the beef is tested. In Japan, 100% of beef is tested. Here in the US, its under 1%.

Eating beef with Mad Cows will lead to brain shrinkage, in fact the brain becomes a sponge. Recent research is noting the similarities between Mad Cow's and Alzheimers with regards to prions, abnormal protein found in the brain, as well as the brains of people poisoned by insecticide and nerve agent (nerve gas). I suspect at some point it will come out the insecticide poisoning is the cause of Alzheimer's, Parkinsons, and the human form of Mad Cow's (CJD).

Insecticides are made from diluted nerve agent or nerve gas, which were used in World War 2 as chemical warfare. These agents attack the nervous systems and brains of their victims. Alzheimers and Parkinsons are diseases of the nervous system. Could there be a connection?

So insecticides are a way for the military industry to make money during peactime. Well, it's better than creating a war during peactime just to sell weapons but it's still awfull - and the farmers buy it. It's a sickness.

Vegans, raw food or otherwise, do NOT get any B-12... whether you believe the body can make and absorb it's own (I actually believe this is how nature and God intended it, and believe it does happen and is possible, but not not in most circumstances in most humans these days in the modern Western environment) or not, is not the issue.. the issue is, the base material that the human body WOULD make it's own B-12 from, would be the trace mineral COBALT, which is completely absent from modern American agri-soils... that is the bigger issue at stake, plus the fact that many people lack HCl production (which could be the magical "intrinsic factor" and toxicity and mucous congestion of part or most of the GI tract... even raw vegans after years of eating clean sometimes still have these issues without some form of "unnatural" purging, cleansing, etc. (i.e., a week long intestinal cleanse with magnesium or herbs, etc).

I think ABC workers have shrinkage of their brain and intellect...

I am daily amazed at how ignorant and retarded the average American is becoming... does it amaze the smart group that are members of this awesome nutrition and health forum?

I personally know many raw foodists who've tested deficient for
Vitamin B-12. They thought their symptoms of fatigue and depression were due to "detoxing", when in fact it was their low levels of Vitamin B-12 that was causing their sadness, lethargy and depression. Once they started receiving
on-going B-12 injections from their physicians, their symptoms began to fade away as if a dark cloud had lifted from their brains.

Vigorous amounts of B-12 only comes from a few natural food sources, and those people who come to the raw diet with illnesses far more serious ( i.e . cancer, severe asthma, psoriasis, type 2 diabetes, hepatitis..) than the usual reasons people join the raw food community( i.e. fatness, vague allergy symptoms, acne, not enough energy..) need a lot more nutritional support to get well and healthy. B-12 is vital to nerve function and bodily energy and cannot be poo-poo'd as something that most of can naturally get in abundance from plant food.

From my humble observation, it almost always seems as if the most antagonistic responses to the question of whether or not raw food vegans need to supplement with a high quality B-12 product, comes from the robust and hearty members of the raw food community. People with little or no serious health complications, and people who are not battling any ongoing fevers, infections, or diseases themselves, nearly always seem to be the ones with the most pronounced beliefs about the efficacy of a raw food diet without supplementation..


And just an fyi...Most vegan processed foods like soy milk, breads, soy cheeses, and cereals have a lot of B-12 added to it by manufacturers which is why you don't hear of that many serious B-12 deficiency complaints in the cooked vegan community. But they are out there, because B-12 in abundance doesn't naturally grow in nature.



PEACE
Choco

Choco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally know many raw foodists who've tested
> deficient for
> Vitamin B-12. They thought their symptoms of
> fatigue and depression were due to "detoxing",
> when in fact it was their low levels of Vitamin
> B-12 that was causing their sadness, lethargy and
> depression.

Mercury interacts with B12 so their fatigue could have come from detoxing mercury, which then affected the B12. But I agree, B12 is an important thing for many people to supplement with, probably more so when they are detoxing than when they have been raw for awhile.

Mercury might oxidise the cobalt atom in the B12:
[www.whale.to]
"Dr Ahlrot-Westerlund explained a possible reason for the mercury/B12 connection: "Mercury seems to change valency and binding site in the body, and this causes increased free radical formation. It is possible that the mercury change in valency in pro-oxidative direction, oxidises the cobalt atom in the B12."

If people feel they need to supplement their B-12, it is pretty inexpensive. Arugula spends less than $10 a year on it. For myself, I've chosen the wait and see approach. I feel great right now, but should that change, I wouldn't hesitate to supplement if that would help. And I would also be willing to look at other factors in my lifestyle to see if they could be contributing to any loss of health.

But to be in fear of B-12 deficiency is not it. If you are experiencing fear, then allay your fears with supplementation.

As for B-12 deficiency being of cause of illness or a symptom of illness, this is not clear. None of the research can prove that B-12 deficiency is not just another symptom of being sick or ill. There are plenty of people eating meat who have B-12 related problems, and it shows up low in their bodies, yet they are eating B-12 all the time. There is a tool called the Koch postulate that says if there is even 1 case of where a causal element is not present and the disease occurs, this is enough to disprove causality. Or likewise, if there is just one case of where a causal element is present and the disease does not occur, this also disproves causality. In any case, there is no proof of causality with B-12 deficiency, and it may be that our internal B-12 gets consumed simply by being very sick, independent of whether we have it in our diet or not.

"...and it may be that our internal B-12 gets consumed simply by being very sick, independent of whether we have it in our diet or not.."

Bryan,
Yes, I totally agree. Being ill does require a lot of energy to fight disease and does consume a lot of the body's resources. I also agree that simply eating meat will not necessarily provide people with the B-12 they need. One can have compromised digestion, hindering the body's ability to extract B-12 from food regardless of one's diet. That being said, raw food vegans ( and to a lesser extent cooked vegans) have a harder time even acquiring hearty, reliable sources of B-12 from the get-go simply because there aren't many( if any, when being completetly strict about it..) natural plant sources with an abundance of B-12. I have seen how supplementing with B-12 injections, (which completetly bypasses the digestive tract if you are suffering from compromised B-12 digestion) has helped many people with low B-12 counts feel better.

I also agree that not every raw vegan with a low B-12 count senses within themselves classic symptoms of B-12 deficiency, but from a scientific standpoint one does not need to "feel bad" in order to be suffering from a serious medical problem that needs addressing.This is why I recommend all my raw friends get their B-12 levels checked every 4 months or so to see where they are. Think of STD's that bring on no pain but can causing damaging problems to reproductive health if not treated, or cancer tumors that are diagnosed without patients having pain...These need to be treated regardless of not feeling pain in order to prevent further deterioration of the physical body.

B-12 deficiency is the only vitamin supplementation that is covered by most major health insurances because of the dangers of permanent neurological and cognitive damage that occurs when the levels get too low. It can take faster or slower to reach depletion (or very low levels) of B-12 on a raw vegan diet, depending on your health status to begin with. For those members of the raw community who are ill or have had a history of illness, supplementation can truly be helpful in their fight for wellness.


PEACE
Choco

Choco,

If it allays your fears to see a doctor every 4 months, be my guest. It is my experience that the more time I spend with doctors, the more I am exposed to their fears and their pressures, and this doesn't feel good to me.

This reminds me of all the propaganda around getting mammogram. Mammograms are effective at finding tumors over checkup without them, in fact they find twice as many. But recent Canadian research found that when you checked the death rates from cancer after a 7 year period of people who had regular mammograms versus people who did not, there was no difference. So mammograms are effective in bringing potential customers into the medical machinery, but looking at survival rates, made zero difference. Is there any benefits to mammogram to the end user? No, at least based on this research. Is there any benefit to the medical industry? Yes, because if they find a higher incidence of cancers, that means there are potentially more customers.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

It is my experience that the
> more time I spend with doctors, the more I am
> exposed to their fears and their pressures, and
> this doesn't feel good to me.

try seeing one when you are pregnant or your kids are small. talk about fear tactics, sheesh! doctor's hardly have your terrific health in mind, they are motivated by other factors i'm afraid. and they are terrified themselves, they know all the things that can go wrong and that's all they see all day long, how could they not be fearful? not for me thanks, i am doctor mom and that's ok.

I agree with Bryan. Most people these days CAN find healthier ways to live. But the OUTPUT of a lifestyle that is fearful/stressful or negatively careful or 'obsessive' will over-ride even the healthiest diets.

-Those whose challenges are finding day-to-day ways to eat healthier - than that is a legitimate challenge. Those whose main challenge is that they are worried, stressed, sick, depressed and/or confused most of the time should find ANY way to live for 30 days that involve not even paying the least amount of worry or fight to those things that are making them sick. Acceptance (approval not necessary) for 30 days is the start any true healing program.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Yeah, I am very skeptical about any benefit from a mammogram myself.

But I do believe it is prudent to take B12 from a supplement.

I would not be surprised if that inflammatory headline came from CSIRO, they are notoriously pro-meat.

A B-12 deficiency is very difficult to correct without intensive intravenous treatment, and it usually takes four to six months for serious symptoms of neurological damage to manifest. By then you could be really ill. Also, many meat eaters are consuming meat from anaemic animals whose tissues are themselves deficient in B-12, so the meat eaters consequently derive no benefit from what they're consuming in animal tissue. Lastly, there is some debate as to whether natural deficiency in IGF2, an enzyme that allows metabolization of B-12 from food sources, isn't more widespread than is believed. This would help explain why so many people, veg or not, seem to have a hard time with absorption of the vitamin.

i am curious how a meat eater gets any b12 from meat, doesn't heat destroy vitamins? how can cooked eggs, dairy or meat have any?

Great posts!

For what it's worth.

I have been vegan for almost a year now. Blood work done during my time as a low carb meat eater showed sky high B12 levels. My last blood work (from a few weeks ago) showed borderline low.
I will start sublingual B12 supplementation.

Has anyone noticed raw vegans have been under attack lately? Or our way of life? All of a sudden?

I say bad attention is still good attention. All it took for me to do it was hearing about it.

Here is a little from The China Sydrome and renowned author T. Colin Campbell on the subject of B12.

"Vitamin B12 is made by microorganisms found in the soil and by microorganisms in the intestines of aniamals, including our own. The amount made in our intestines is not adequately absorbed, so it is recommended that we consume B12 in food. Research has convincingly shown that plants grown in healthy soil that has a good concetration of vitamin Bwe will readily absorb this nutritent. However, plants grown in "lifeless" soil (non-organic soil) may be deficient in vitamin B12. In the United States, most of our agriculture takes place on relatively lifeless soil, decimated from years of unnatural pesticide, herbicide and fertilizer use. So the plants grown in this soil and sold in our supermarkets lack B12. In addition, we live in such a sanitized world that we rarely come into direct contact with the soilborne microorganisms that produce B12. At one point in our history, we got B12 from vegetables that hadn't been scoured of all soil. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that modern Americans who eat highly cleansed plant products and no animal products are unlikely to get enough vitamin B12.

Though our society's obsession with nutrient supplements seriously detracts from other, far more important nutrition information, this is not to say that supplement should always be avoided. It is estimated that we hold a three-year store of vitamin B12 in our bodies. If you do not eat any animal products for three years or more, or are pregnant or breastfeeding, you should consider taking a small B12 supplement on occasion, or going to the doctor annually to check your blood levels of B vitamins and homocysteine."

Vitamin D3 is also linked to brain disorders in similar studies.

Don't assume the "organic" produce bought at the local store is even close to the natural vegetation your great, great, great, great, great, ... adinfinitun adnauseum... hominoid ate with his/her favorite pizza and/or insect side dish.

No more than the meat you can buy, is anything close to that of ancient game.

We live in a sterile, and yet polluted world my fine feathered friends. That may sound like a dichotomy, or even an oxy-moron... but it most likely means any strict diet based on philosophical or ethical reasonings will be flawed in some fashion.

That's the curse of being highly civilized.

When I grow up... I wanna be a turtle.

p.s. But don't listen to what I say. I have a family of clowns that live under my bed, and bicker and snicker all night long, with big ol'clown feet!

Vitamin B 12 is stable to heat compared to the other B vitamins.

ref: Fennema, Food Chemistry 3nd ed., Dekker, N.Y.

You can see this when you look at the molecule. It is huge and complicated with a corrin ring in the middle that resists breakdown.




It doesn't look anything like any other B vitamin. But that ring in the middle is also present in heme and chlorophyll and the cytochromes.

I think it is one of the largest molecules in nature that isn't a polymer.

paragon1685 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The following article is showing up on major news
>
> websites on the Internet. Note the "best" sources
>
> for not "shrinking the brain."
>
> Eating veggies shrinks the brain
All is not as it appears. 100% Raw Vegans are
naturally smaller everywhere, even Bone Density, but have
sharper minds and stronger bones......WY

Has anybody read 1984 where the guy's job was to write history and rewrite it according to who won the wars or who was the current enemy or the current ally..?

Well people are just making up nonsense. I cannot believe my ears.