Liberation,

Great suggestion to email these folks and tell 'em how we feel!

Somehow when I tried using your links, my email froze up. But I'll restart and try it again.

Congratulations Liberation on your high-profile arrest record for peaceful demonstration. Definitely I understand that one can only be arrested so many times without possible exposure to an unfortunate jailterm or an unaffordable bond or fine. I've been arrested (willingly) a few times myself during environmental demonstrations, and can relate.

Kombaiyashi,

I do prefer Liberation's suggestion to send the owners an email. No reason to be out making trouble if a whole lot of emails would accomplish the same thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/24/2008 01:44AM by suncloud.

Don't you think a local firms might conspire to use you people to take down small raw vegitarian restaurant owners that have been taking away their business?

It wouldn't be very difficult to do...The local newspapers would love a story where animal rights protesters are picketing a vegitarian restaurant, all the public would see is the signs and then that restaurant and their minds will fill in the blanks. Those restaurants are doing a lot for animal rights and there customers hardly even know it.

We in the raw vegan movement have got to realize, sooner or later, that a very large segment of the potential converts to the raw vegan diet ARE NOT going to approach converting to it from the ethical treatment of animals point-of-view..

Instead, they will initially approach converting from a SAD, cooked diet to a raw vegan diet simply from a health perspective..

This is not to say that many of those converting from a strictly health conscious perspective will not eventually adopt & embrace an ethical treatment of animals point-of-view..

But, we need to realize that many of those converting from a health conscious perspective might NEVER adopt the ethical treatment of animals point-of-view..

Does this make them any LESS important to the raw vegan movement??..

I say no!!..Different, without a doubt..But, no less important than those who believe in the ethical treatment of animals..

Our political base now sucks..It is virtually non-existent..We cannot afford to turn people away from raw veganism by creating & maintaining schisms within the raw community..

I agree completely with Utopian Life that some of the spelling & grammar in this thread has been atrocious..

I am going to come out right now & say something that has been bothering me for quite a while now..

It may be okay to use abbreviations & shortened words when text messaging..Or when one wishes to communicate with one's peers in a patois..As long as all parties are conversant with the patois, or abbreviations, then there can be no misunderstanding between the various people on a thread..

But, when people from all across the planet are attempting to communicate using written English with one another in intelligent discourse within a thread on a forum such as this, it is IMPERATIVE that people post their thoughts using complete sentences & phrases..

Proper spelling & grammar helps a lot in preventing misunderstandings..

Lest people think I'm trying to be elitist, I keep a dictionary, & sometimes a thesaurus, right along side of the monitor where it is available for me to use as I type up a post..I use these tools A LOT..Almost every single day..Especially when I'm trying to communicate EXACTLY how & what I am thinking..I proof read EVERY post before I click onto the "Post Message" box..And, I still post mistakes..

I am NOT singling out those people for whom spoken & written English is a second language..It is EASY to recognize someone like that & to understand what they are trying to communicate..

I am targeting those people for whom English is their native language, & that CHOOSE not to communicate in complete thoughts, that spell poorly (often times on purpose, it seems), & that use poor grammar..Or, that choose not to use proper punctuation..

English is one of the most complex languages to learn to speak & write..It is VERY easy for miscommunication of one's thoughts to occur with English..

I know that it is considered the "in" thing to communicate using internet patois, text messaging abbreviations, poor grammar, little or no punctuation marks, all lower case letters, etc., etc, etc..

But, many times communicating this way leads to inadvertent misunderstandings on a thread that end up igniting flame wars..

liberation--

Your OP was so poorly worded that it took me quite a while reading other people's responses to your OP to FULLY understand the intention of your comments..You failed to address Kombaiyashii directly in your initial attack on him..You assumed, incorrectly, that everyone would immediately be able to reference to the other thread simply by misspelling his name..I came onto this thread after a several day absence due to the recent illness & death of my 104 year old grandmother..I had no clue what you were initially talking about..I must have been 10-12 posts into this thread before I fully understood your OP..

While I agree with much of what you are trying to say, I very much disagree with how you went about saying what you thought..

Bruce

baltochef Wrote:> But, we need to realize that many of those
> converting from a health conscious perspective
> might NEVER adopt the ethical treatment of animals
> point-of-view..
>
> Does this make them any LESS important to the raw
> vegan movement??..
>
> I say no!!..Different, without a doubt..But, no
> less important than those who believe in the
> ethical treatment of animals..

I completely agree with you here. One of the most powerful political acts you can undertake is a boycott...By someone going rawvegan, not only are they boycotting meat but also voting for more organic produce to be sold in our markets.

This is the real democracy, not the fake one vote per four years 'democracy' we have now.

However, it's impossible to boycott everything. You've just got to make good decisions and inform ourselves.

By the way Bruce, how has my spelling and grammar been? I thought people were talking about me being the crudy speller as I don't use a spell or grammar check and only proof read after I've made my post...I'm from England also so we've got slightly different veriations on spelling. I've always been hideous at English...

I think Liberation has a point and I'll admit that I did stereotype Animal Rights people and I may be eating raw for more selfish purposes. However, that doesn't mean I'm not compassionate.

baltochef Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We in the raw vegan movement have got to realize,
> sooner or later, that a very large segment of the
> potential converts to the raw vegan diet ARE NOT
> going to approach converting to it from the
> ethical treatment of animals point-of-view..
>
> Instead, they will initially approach converting
> from a SAD, cooked diet to a raw vegan diet simply
> from a health perspective..


Yeah, I agree and accept this, and my approach is to confront it, confront the selfishness that exists (as health reasons are inherently selfish) and call people out on what they do and why, instead of them questioning ME on what I DON'T do.
(that is, if it comes up in convo, which it usually doesn't anyway. )

Health reasons are not inherently selfish, I don't think... Starting with creating balance and having respect for the microcosm can translate to balance and respect for the macrocosm. No one can heal the world if they themselves are disordered and broken. It's a sphere of influence thing.

Sometimes a person has to start with compassion for the self: and once a person learns through *direct experience* what compassion is, it can be recognized anywhere, in anything... And if a person believes in compassion, and is truly a functional and HEALED member of the earth, it's very simple to make that second step to include compassion for everyone: insects, trees, water, air, soil, the earth as an extension of the body.

Nothing is accomplished by confronting these people... All we can do is live by example, and further teach compassion. =)

I know plenty of ethical vegans who have no compassion for themselves, and you should see the nightmares they make of their personal lives, the people they damage with the tornado of darkness they carry everywhere. It's not very productive for humanity as a whole if compassion for animals is present, alongside abuse of other humans who do not adopt the same ethical point of view.

Everybody has to start somewhere. That start is love...

And one thing I have seen amongst all RAW vegans, health-centered or animal-centered in the movement, is an abundance of LOVE!! So I think we are on the right track. =)

I believe that confrontation seldom works as a strategy for changing another person's mind..

In my experience of 54 years on this planet I would estimate that confrontation is less than 10% effective as a means of change..Perhaps as little as 1-2% effective..

IMO, the main reason that humans elect for confrontation is so that the person doing the confronting can feel good about themselves..

It allows them to feel satisfied about an issue that they feel passionately about..

Confrontation by its very nature is a violent act..

Whether or not actual physical violence occurs during the confrontation makes little difference to me..Verbal confrontation is just as wrong as the physical kind..

Here is the dictionary definition from my Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary..The one that I keep next to the computer monitor..

con-fron-ta-tion: n (1632): the act of confronting: the state of being confronted: a: a face-to-face meeting b: the clashing of forces or ideas: CONFLICT

con-front: v (1568): 1: to face, especially in challenge: OPPOSE 2 a: to cause to meet: bring face-to-face b: to meet face-to-face: ENCOUNTER

I disagree with Utopian Life that confronting raw vegans that are interested in the diet & lifestyle primarily for health reasons in order to try & force them into adopting an ethical treatment of animals philosophy is the proper way to effect change..

I agree with phantom that a kinder, gentler approach is the proper way to act..

Bruce

Haven't got time to read the whole thread, but have read the introductory post.

So those who eat raw egg and have honey aren't compassionate?

Isn't it simply that they have different views on these things than you do?

Can't you focus more on the things they're doing right? (ie as compared with 99% of the world?)

If your copper/zinc ratio is not correct, there could be a problem with your brain, as higher functions in the brain such as compassion depend upon proper ratio of these minerals.

Well , animals do not speak up for themselves , people do, and when a bunch of people get together it means big trouble.


The number one killer of animals today : Shelters!

Mislu somneone told me that at the tree of Life so I ran and bought zinc bottles. Did nothing.

Suvine,

Those wraps look awesome & delicious. Wow.

Yeah -- yum!!!

she IS indeed;O)))))

Suvine, I want you to UNcook for me!

YOu guys are so funny. I love it when you are all nice to me. Thanks.

"Mislu somneone told me that at the tree of Life so I ran and bought zinc bottles. Did nothing."

I'm not suprised, quite often isolated nutrients don't do the same thing as when its present in food. Correcting zinc-copper ratios in the body doesn't sound as simple as just taking a pill. How were you even sure that you even had an imbalance?

I do not know they always said something was wrong with me. One guy told me I needed crystals. Go figure. I bought them for 25 dollars each





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2008 02:11AM by suvine.

Suvine,
Didn't you once work at tree of life? For some reason it sounds off for them to just say something is wrong. I guess medicine is medicine alternative or not. Usually there are tests or at least some diagnosis by symptoms, if you had any complaints, or some physical signs of some type. There is always a dialog between you and your healthcare provider, whatever the source. The average american seems to just hand over all responsibility to someone else. As my exposure to different approaches to health has increased, the less inclined I feel to hand over any responsibility to anyone else for my health, for better or for worse.

Mislu yes I did. It sounds off? Really? have you ever been there, we were always told that something was lacking, like enzyme pills, crysal manna. The emplyee fridge has no veggies or fruit just botles and superfoods, agave ad cacao. I took a photo

Suvine,
I don't know I have never been there. But I suppose they might diagnosis something lacking, but from what you wrote earlier it sounded like they didn't give you much information.

Your a wonderful person and an inspiration, so beautiful and positive. What I like about you the most is that you are so supportive, and I don't recall you ever judging me about anything. I sometimes feel so judged by other people. I could even say I love you, even though I have never met you and hardly know you. I just feel love from you. Its so easy to love someone who already has love themselves.

Thank you Mislu. I guess I LUV you too.

Suvine,
I read your interview with Mango on his fruitarian blog. Very interesting, I didn't know you were so driven and passionate.

What did I say tell me

Hi Suvine!
Here is a link...
[mangodurian.blogspot.com]

I probably wouldn't get it right if I tried to re-tell your story. The interview was truely wonderful, pretty honest about your own exploration to find a life worth living. Its something available to all.

Don't mean to interupt. Please excuse me.

As a result of Liberation's suggestion on this thread, I sent an email to rawjuliano@yahoo.com, just to let him know that "bees are animals, and honey is not vegan".

Today I got an email back from Juliano, saying only "your wrong". (His misspelling, not mine).

So today I sent him another email containing a link to an article called "Criteria for Vegan Food" posted on the Vegan Society website, which clearly indicated that bee products are not "vegan". The Vegan Society is over 60 years old.

I don't mean to be confrontational, but I do think it's important that the word "vegan" retain it's traditional definition, and that's what I expressed to Juliano.

I hope people agree, and if they do, they might take just a couple of minutes to send an email to rawjuliano@yahoo.com and let Juliano know.

Thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/09/2008 11:00PM by suncloud.

suncloud

Will send Juliano an e-mail re. bees & honey..

Juliano misrepresenting honey as being vegan is just another lie in a long line of lies by contemporary chefs over the past 20-30 years as they mis-label or misrepresent foods as being something that they are not..

I will not attempt to cite cooked food specifics as this is a raw vegan forum..

It started in the United States when individual chefs often could not get the specific ingredients necessary to recreate a dish that was a part of a classical chef's repertoire..

So, they used what ingredients that they could obtain to create the dish desired, & just went ahead & called the new creation by the old classical name..

This is one of the many reasons that until recently American chefs were not held in high esteem by their European counterparts..

Their willingness to bastardize the classical dishes created in Europe & call these new creations by the same name, when in fact these new dishes often bore only a passing resemblance to the classical dish..

In Juliano's case it is in all likelihood an unwillingness to give up using honey for whatever reasons that he might have..

Most probably, it is due to honey giving certain dishes a particular taste that he feels cannot be achieved by the use of other sweeteners..

No one that has been associated with the raw movement for any length of time can be unaware of the strict definition of what a raw vegan is..

To e-mail you & infer that honey is accepted by vegans is just wrong..

Human beings can always find justifications for their behavior / decisions when it suits them to do so..

Bruce

Thank you so much Bruce for sending an email to Juliano!

For anyone else who'd like to send Juliano an email just to let him know that honey is NOT vegan, here is his email address again: rawjuliano@yahoo.com

Thanks again Bruce!

WOOOOOWWWWW ooo)))) from THE BEES, particularly to suncloud n baltochef!!!

i am also encouraging the renowned "rawvolution" restaurant and celeb chef crew in el-lay and new york. matt amsden and janabai have now removed products of bee use from their menu after some steady, clear pressure, but stoutly defend their offering similarly cruel items from the shelves of the store within the establishment.

sure, we must positively shine in the face of a l l of the many unspeakable horrors that humyns perpetrate, however, my feeling is that, if we are to be worthwhile shining examples to the s.a.d. world, we must be fully honest and congruent "close to home", especially our raw/"vegan" restaurants and more prominent spokespeople, otherwise the neesayers will soon, and disdainfully expose and divide us.

please email rawvolution at :

rawvolution@yahoo.com
janabai76@gmail.com
rawvolution2@yahoo.com

(we can also thank rod at leaf cusine for seeing the bee's side soon after he opened

again, the bees humbly thank you all for being a compassionate "voice for the voiceless")

i remain confident that we CAN unite the vegans/activists for non-humyn beings,
a n d the raw/health fooders, to be SUCH a powerful vector for positive change)

m u c h humble love n liberation
cx

Yeah, even if somebody, for WHATEVER reason thought that honey was "cruelty-free," it's still not vegan.