I have been on the raw food thing a little over 2 weeks. I felt pretty good, but the last couple of days has been different. I get tired throught the day. Today I had to take my mother to the grocery store, I got week in the grocery store, felt lightheaded and my shoulders kind of ached. I have been wanting some regular food very badly also, had alot of cravings.
I have lost alot of weight, not sure how much I never weigh myself. I am a big guy though and can carry alot of weight. I am 6"5 and probably 290lbs. I am very comfortable between 260-270lbs. Believe it or not I have never really eaten that much food. I always gained weight so easily, I ate very little and would maintain that weight.
Here is what a typical day is for me as far as intake. I drink about a quart of green smoothie a day. That smoothie consist of 1 banana,1 apple, some bee pollen, alot of spinach and a bunch of Romaine lettuce. Every couple of days I might eat a handful of raw peanuts. During the day I will probably eat 2 or 3 bananas, 2 apples, 2 or 3 grapefruit and maybe a orange. I really do not want any more than that, but wonder If I am getting enough calories. I also get really sleepy at night, I mean could dose off in the chair kind of sleepy. Never done that before. Sleep 4 to 5 hours and I am ready to get up then. Have not slept 8 hours at night for many years. Just seem not to have alot of energy and get tired fairly quick. I do not know which foods are calorie dense. I dont like avacodos though.
Thanks for all the replies to my previous post and to the future replies to this one.

Jake,

Short of the peanuts, you are more or less missing out on both fat and protein, and in general probably need a lot more food than what you're eating!

Consider adding in some brown rice protein to your morning smoothie, and throughout the day eating more sprouts and raw nuts. Soaked almonds and walnuts will help get some good fats into your system, and flax oil is a good idea too.

Sounds to me like your current diet is providing you with about 10 grams of protein, and if you're not eating peanuts everyday, basically no fat. Everyones protein needs are different, but you need a lot more than that!

jake
use your appetite to determine when and how much to eat.

you may be tired during transition, you're coming off stimulants.

extra protein not recommended.
bee pollen not recommended.

moderator bryan slept 16 hours a day or something during transition.

brown rice ptotein, nuts, oils, not recommended imo



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2008 11:09PM by fresh.

When I eat really pure, I get aches in my body, too, that are temporary and I think releasing of toxins, but not sure/no confirmation.

What do you mean "Regular" food? If fruits and veggies aren't regular, I don't know what is. :p

Spinach has a lot of protein. I get 80 g. a day from just greens.

Do you have any source of omegas?

fresh, if you are going to recommend against more protein in his diet can you please give an explanation why?

All conventional knowledge of nutrition would suggest that his current raw diet is severly lacking in protein.

If you're findings are anecdotal, in that it seems there are raw foodies out there doing just fine on 'low protein' diets, that's fine, but I would at least like to hear your reasoning behind it.

I'm more than aware that we don't require as much protein as our meat pushing western world would like us to believe, but protein and specificially their amino acids are absolutely essential to proper functioning of the human body. In my opinion, Jake needs much more protein, or aminos, than he is getting on his current diet.

And to Utopian Life, I doubt that you are getting 80g a day from just greens. This seems to me mostly impossible. Are you including spirulina in this sum? In which case you must take large amounts of spirulina even...

Nope, I guess no omegas. Just basically fruits and a quart of smoothie with the spinach and lettuce. figured I got some fat from the peanuts. Just feel not enough energy.I exercised this afternoon and still feel the lag. Arms and shoulders are like rubber right now. Thought I might be low on calories. Just did not know a calorie dense food. Oh by regular food I meant the sad diet.
Thanks again for the replies

No, mixed greens, spinach, and kale mostly, and obviously every other vegetable and fruit I eat has protein. I don't eat spirulina.

How about coconuts? I hope you feel better soon, Jake!

Woah.. It's kind of painful to read some of these posts. I mean, personally, I don't think you're detoxing and I don't think it's right to say it's ok for you to eat that little for your size. I mean, I'm 5'5", 17 and a girl and I eat more then you. Somehow I don't find that normal.

Go on nutridiary, plug in your food meals, check how many calories you should be getting and make sure you are getting enough; you may put on weight easily because your metabolism will slow and adjust to whatever calories you may give it -- it will refuse to burn calories with such little flame and resort to storing fat whenever it can.

oohh pleaasee eat more food; you will probably see a large improvement.
if you get uncomfortable with eating too much fruit; then look for more calorie dense things like nuts, lentils.. anything. But man, no wonder you feel bad.. just look at how little you are eating. I really don't intend to offend or anything, but it's kind of like pointing out to someone who is confused as to why they are 700 pounds, but eats 2 tubs of ice cream. just really, for your health, get some food in your belly!

Jake,

It sounds like you are not eating enough calories. Its worthwhile to use a nutritional calculator like fitday, nutritiondata, nutridiary, or Cron-o-Meter to monitor your calorie intake at first.

Fats are the most calorie dense of the raw fooIds, but eating too much (say more than 30% of your caloric intake) will lead to problems. Ideally fat intake will be under 20% of your caloric intake.

A better choice for more calories are sweet fruits. This includes persimmons, bananas, mangos, figs, dates, melons, etc.

Vegetables and greens are very low in calories. If you eat a bunch, while very nutritional and healthful, they won't supply you with much energy (calories).

1- there are omegas in most fruits and vegetables

2- humans do not require the recommended calories every day/week of their life. there are many times, especially during transition, when the body does not want the food intake, it has better things to do. same for protein.

3- my suggestions were in response to advice (as loathe as i am to call out someone) to ingest non foods imo, that would cause problems in the body. ie oils, etc.
in addition if he says he doesn't want any more than the food he is eating, then what people are suggesting is that he force food down. this is not a good idea.

4- i would suggest that jake eat fruits and veggies and minimal nuts/seeds one at a time that are palatable to him and eat when hungry, instead of trying to use other peoples advice as to how much and when and what to eat.

5- we do not need obvious sources of fat in order to thrive. primates thrive on fruits and veggies which contain fats. nuts cause more problems than they solve.

6- raw peanuts (legume) especially, can cause problems - best avoided. try nuts instead if you wish except cashew.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2008 11:34AM by fresh.

Hey Jake...Just to give you a little bit of my own epxerience with the dizziness...

I used to get very dizzy, especially when standing up. I would have to take in several breaths and then stand up slowly. In the past when standing up too fast I've fainted, my vision goes and then my the time I've come to it, I'm having to brace myself to impact the floor...

However this has completely stopped now...I almost forgot about it until you brought it up. Is your blood pressure low? Mine is and I think that when I stand up, I don't get enough blood to my head, causing the dizziness...

primates do not thrive on only fruits and leaves; they in fact do eat nuts bugs and meat, however little the percentage, it's a percentage and we are also long since derived from an ape.

think about what you are doing and make sure you're feeling right; calories are very important, and light headedness is probably low-calorie intake and low blood pressure.. My lightheadedness went away when i solved the calorie problem..

just saying, you can't jump to conclusions and automatically say that someone should only eat what their "body" is telling them; our bodies tell us to eat a ton of calorie dense food in order to survive, that's most likely why vegetables don't taste good plain and raw (unless you're starving and that's the only thing you have to eat). People probably get cravings on the raw food diet because they are most likely not getting enough calories. I just feel like it's dangerous to tell someone to limit their food to an anorexic level because they feel like they're full. Fullness does not = getting all your nutritional value for the day

fresh,

While I respect your points, I have to say I dissagree with you.

"1- there are omegas in most fruits and vegetables "

The amount of omegas contained in fruits and vegetables is clearly not enough to support ones needs. One cup of Kale has 0.13 grames of Omega 3 fatty acids according to [www.whfoods.com]. Considering the set AI of Omega 3 is 1.1-1.6 grams and assumes an individual is obtaining EPA/DHA directly, a vegan needs to consume much higher amounts of plant based ALA to ensure adequate conversion; Most fruits contain essentially no fat.

I also dissagree that an oil is a non-food and would therefore cause problems in the body. When an oil is unrefined and cold pressed there is nothing that leads me to believe that it would cause any problems in the human body. By avoiding oils, assuming that you can get enough fat from greens and fruits, you are going to cause far greater problems than you solve, imo.

I do agree to listen to ones body, but clearly if jake is coming on the forums to make such a post as he did, his body is telling him to eat more food. All signs indicate to me that he needs substantially more food, and specifically fat and protein. Energy levels tend to take a noise dive when we are lacking on these two aforementioned nutrients.

I think that it is irresponsible and dangerous to tell a man who is 6'5" eating the way he has been that he is just in a transition period. I don't want come accross like the mainstream medical establishment here or something, rejecting all opinions that differ from my own, but I think there is a lot of misinformation going around in the raw food community, and some of it can be dangerous. I respect your opinions though, and I'm only trying to post mine :]

are you confused now jake?

>primates do not thrive on only fruits and leaves

i never said that. many primates including humans thrive without obvious fat sources like meat, nuts and avocados.


>I just feel like it's dangerous to tell someone to limit their food to an anorexic level because they feel like they're full. Fullness does not = getting all your nutritional value for the day

as you wish. keep forcing food down then.

clearly there are 2 types of hunger and jake is struggling through it now.
he will have to manage it as best he can.




>The amount of omegas contained in fruits and vegetables is clearly not enough to support ones needs. One cup of Kale has 0.13 grames of Omega 3 fatty acids according to [www.whfoods.com]. Considering the set AI of Omega 3 is 1.1-1.6 grams and assumes an individual is obtaining EPA/DHA directly, a vegan needs to consume much higher amounts of plant based ALA to ensure adequate conversion; Most fruits contain essentially no fat.

i have run the numbers and they are sufficient. i'm not going through it again to prove it to you. you can believe what you want. what in the world you think 1 cup of kale has to do with a raw diet i have no idea.


>I also dissagree that an oil is a non-food and would therefore cause problems in the body. When an oil is unrefined and cold pressed there is nothing that leads me to believe that it would cause any problems in the human body. By avoiding oils, assuming that you can get enough fat from greens and fruits, you are going to cause far greater problems than you solve, imo.

how in the world am i and others thriving without oils?


>I do agree to listen to ones body, but clearly if jake is coming on the forums to make such a post as he did, his body is telling him to eat more food. All signs indicate to me that he needs substantially more food, and specifically fat and protein. Energy levels tend to take a noise dive when we are lacking on these two aforementioned nutrients.

as you wish.

>I think that it is irresponsible and dangerous to tell a man who is 6'5" eating the way he has been that he is just in a transition period.

that's the second time i've been called irresponsible and dangerous. wow.

It is totally obvious that for a man your size, you aren't getting enough calories. This is really basic science. Mostly good advice: eat more juicy fruits and a wider variety of greens[preferably juiced for ease of consumption]. I would add, switch to almonds and walnuts, and maybe a small handful of brazil nuts now and then, instead of peanuts. This regimen will increase your caloric load, which will help you to maintain strength, and at the same time help you to continue in your detoxification process. Make sure you are drinking enough water in the meantime. Good luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2008 04:21PM by Tamukha.

Are refined oils, like olive, canola, sunflower, safflower, coconut, etc., OK to use in dressing?

Because they are refined from their original state, oils are no longer safe to ingest into the body. In their concentrated forms, they are pure fat and large amounts of that fat will be directly absorbed into the bloodstream, adversely affecting the blood viscosity (thickness) and the blood chemistry. However, eating some fresh olives, coconut flesh, or sunflower seeds, in moderation, is not bad for you. These whole foods assuredly contain plenty of fat but it is in a form that is combined with all the essential nutrients designed by nature to accompany that fat.

from foodnsport.com

Yeah, I was going to say, unless SurfinBird starts eating MY food for ME, he/she shouldn't be so quick to state that I'm not getting X amount of protein from my food.

um - there are a few differing views here.

As far as I know, no one has suggested that you change to raw more slowly. Of course many people prefer to go raw overnight and while that suits some people it's not for everyone.

I think that it might be helpful to slow down on going raw. Just a thought.

I wish you well
Philippa

Utopian -

In your initial post you stated:

>Spinach has a lot of protein. I get 80 g. a day from just greens.

I misinterpreted this to meaning you are getting 80grams of protein exclusively from the greens in your diet. Since one cup of fresh spinach has 1g of protein, this would mean you are consuming 80 cups of spinach per day. Therefore I made the statement I did. You later stated that the 80grams/day meant the totality of your diet, which is more reasonable and I can therefore understand.

fresh -

Although I suppose all oils could be considered refined, as it is the isolated oil taken from the seed, what I am refering to is 'unrefined' oils. That is to say, those processed without any chemicals or heat. Oils such as these still have the lipid soluble nutrients that are necessary for proper health contained within the oil. I do understand your angle though, in that nature doesn't provide us with isolated oils.

I will read over Dr. Douglas Graham's website with great interest when I have more time. I am not opposed to new ideas and in fact welcome them with great interest. However all knowledge that I currently have of nutrition would state that it is more or less impossible to get what we currently feel is the optimum amount of essential fatty acids through just eating fruits and vegetables. New ideas should always be looked at with healthy dose of skepticism. Thankyou for the website.

Quite the topic you started Jake.

Ciao!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2008 06:08PM by SurfinBird.

I didn't say just spinach; I said greens. I eat more kale than spinach. :p

To fresh -

I took a look over Doug Graham's website. There isn't an excessive amount of information on there, and I see that he has a book - 'The 80/10/10' Diet. Would this be a good book to read if I am interested in learning more about natural hygene? It seems to me his philosophies are somewhat inline with natural hygene, and I've had an interest to read more about that lately.

Thanks!

kudos for your openmindedness surfinbird.

i still say the same holds for unrefined oils.

if you look at the website there is quite a bit of info available in the FAQ section.

and the book is excellent for the most part.

I understand it is not a fact, but an opinion, that oil is going to make your blood thicken.

A good example of oil is coconut oil, which is a specific MCT fat which goes directly to the liver and used for energy, in turn stabilizing blood sugar levels. Many people reap benefits from coconut oil; as well as those that eat whole coconuts. I think if you get too specific in what you're eating, it doesn't always boil down to "just food in it's whole state" that should be considered the only thing you're meant to eat, or that is good for you.

fresh, if you look at your post, you did say primates thrive on fruits and greens..and now you're saying they live without fats. That is not true. I'm sorry, but there are many studies conducted on chimpanzees and it's incredible the amount of information that is found each year, and the amount of work put into these long-term studies. They're always finding something knew about them, and if you've never really read about these studies, it's worth doing. But to make claims that apes don't eat fats is just lack of information. It's good to have a source other then 80/10/10 or the foodnsport website.

Also a lot of groups of people that live off the land are extremely healthy, no matter their fat intake. I think fat is not the thing to be guilted at for most diseases in the world - when you get into specific fats.


Also, did you discover hungerrr..oooorr did someone tell you what hunger is. Because starving and hungry are two different things.

my statement, in order to clear confusion, is that there are primates that thrive without overt sources of fats.

note that i did not say or mean that primates DO NOT eat fats which are the words you're putting in my mouth.

(gorilla)
"This subspecies consumes parts of at least 97 plant species. About 67% of their diet is fruit, 17% is leaves, seeds and stems and 3% is termites and caterpillars."

none of the above is oils or avocados or coconuts or any of the commonly known high fat foods that are being recommended here. the only fatty item would be seeds and that would not be much at all at the quantities they would eat and the fat content of same.

maybe you and i should just duel at 20 paces instead ?
my weapon of choice would be watermelon seeds spit out at a high rate of speed
and as a backup, some longans that i could fling in your general direction.

Hey, kids -- just don't start chucking avocado pits at each other, ok? Or mango pits! ;P

fresh,

You obviously have a lot of knowledge to offer the debate, and I don't think you are irresponsible or dangerous--you're not telling jake6 to eat arsenic. It's possible that you come off as a tad bit stringent, no? In other circumstances, it might be good to tell someone they should listen to their appetite and wait for symptoms to pass. But saying, "keep forcing food down then," as though jake6 is a foie gras goose, is kind of ominous. We can agree that if a big man feels really hungry and suddenly gets really dizzy on what is basically a squirrel's RDA, it's likely[Occam's Razor alert!]that he's taking in insufficient calories. We are trying to help this man, right? Not fill him with doubts. And I would humbly suggest, as someone who regrettably has contributed to the mess it has become on other threads, that we agree to put a moratorium on discussing what apes and monkeys eat. For the love of all that is holy. All right, just me, then.

"keep forcing food down" was not a suggestion on my part so i don't understand your statement of it being ominous. it was a reference to posters here telling him to eat more when he plainly said that "I really do not want any more than that"

now his statement can mean many things, it can mean he's not hungry at all, or he's not hungry for raw food, or he's sort of not hungry or he wants to eat cooked as he implied, but that's up to him to get into or be more detailed about.

it could very well be that he needs to eat more food or it could be, gasp, transitional effects of dietary change. and perhaps he needs to Rest.
or maybe back off on the speed of transition as suggested.

it could be bee pollen, the spinach, the peanuts, aflatoxin ya know...

to assume that he needs x calories or x protein and that is definitely causing his symptomatic response is not valid imo, since
as you know, people fast for days/weeks when clean without similar symptoms...

as an adult he can probably handle taking in as much information as he can and use his own discretion.

and i think wild animals dietary intake is very relevant.

Right, take Spider Monkies (sorry Tamukha), they eat mostly fruit but also 10% leaves, AND insects and "rotting forest".... if there was a tree with cups of tea with cream and sugar I'll bet that would be on the menu as well (and their repopulation efforts might kick up a notch)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2008 09:59PM by loeve.

yeah apes eat different fruits and leaves then us also, unless you want to live in the rainforest and copy what they do exactly

they probably won't like you doing that though

I don't intend to get into any "argument" or duel..I just think that your reasoning is irrational and that you don't realize what you are typing. I like to take a good look at every side I can.. I agree that we shouldn't even be discussing this for this poor guy to read because he probably just wanted some re-assuring advice. And I don't want to leave him hanging, I just hope he can figure out what he wants to do and what will work for him. Obviously some things worked for you that I could have never recommended, but the things that worked for me I simply did recommend, and perhaps they won't work. So the decision is up to this guy who posted, and a lot of people are suggesting to get some more calories, so hopefully we can see what that does for him if he chooses to do soo..