When a member of the forum posts a new topic and doesn't opine or comment on an internet link, that's known in other forums as a "link and run". And many forums will ban you for that. I'm guilty as charged on my barefoot running thread and will make up for it with post in a day or so. But basically, sorry.

That said, I know Vitamin B-12 has been a huge issue on the forum. And I subscribe to Jack Norris, even though his perspective tends to be cooked vegan and maybe a little too close to Tom Billings/Beyondveg for my liking.

What I do like about Jack is the same thing I like about Cherrie Soria, Brenda Davis, Vesanto Melina and other science-based vegans. I feel that they have the education and ethics to help me formulate my own decisions on veganism and raw foodism.

My personal opinion of the subject matter is straight forward. All vegans need a reliable vegan supplement for Vitamin B-12 until such time as a reliable vegan whole food exists. Nutritional yeast, chlorella, and Klamath Lake blue-green algae all look promising but have yet to show the ability to improve MMA status over the long term.

Anyway, enough of the rant. No more link and runs for the forum. My promise!

Paul

Here's the link! Now I will walk away back to work!

[jacknorrisrd.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/24/2010 02:40PM by pborst.

There was a recent study ill see if i can find the forum post again that said b-12 deficiency was still a big problem in vegans with 56% being deficient or too low levels.

It also stated that these were vegans who were supplementing with b12 but i dont think it said what supplements.

I post on some many forums i cant remember which one linked to the study.

Once again, clean food causes deficiency. Foraging helps. I eat wild apples without removing worms. I know some of you don't like the idea, but I am sure that monkeys don't bother to remove them either.

Paul,

No need to apologize(though it does show tact); you don't normally link-and-run, so can be forgiven for the bf running thread

As for B12, I still like the idea that one can fast one's way back to replenished stores. That I developed a B12 deficiency after many years of few animal foods and only after developing serious digestion problem[infection caused] suggests to me that reversing the original cause of deficiency should restore my B12 levels. I do supplement, for now.

I read a lot of blood tests and 100% of my raw eating mates have low serum b12 levels, despite eating more oyster, steaks, dairy, cream, fish etc than my SAD eating friends. So if animal products prevent a b12 deficiency, which they do not, then how come my raw paleo mates have low serum b12? How come we test at the local lab many SAD eaters for b12? Ask any doctor and they will tell you. Ask your vet if they test dogs, cats, rats etc for b12 serum levels and they do 100%.

Its an interesting subject but everyone forgets we live in a sterile society, we wash food, we sleep indoors, we drink pure water, we breath in pollution everyday, eat salt/garlic/chilli and other harsh condiments etc. All these facets impact our b12 status.

Im an elite athlete and train in traffic a lot. I suck in so much pollution each year, Im probably close to a smoker. I give myself a b12 shot each month for that reason alone. Expecting my levels to be 'natural' whilst living in an unatural world..no way. Fasting does work but then we go back to our late night lifestyle and b12 levels go down again.

If b12 deficiency is a 'vegan thing' then how come they give b12 to tigers at the zoo or put it in dog/cat/fish food? Just ask call your vet and ask em or read the ingredients on the petfood bag.

Here are my b12 levels on youtube.Plus homocysteine/MCV/folate/testosterone.
[www.youtube.com]

Harley,

Thanks. I've seen the video. And you take B-12 shots. The prevalence of b-12 deficiency among non-vegans is something for non-vegans to consider. Not us. The point Jack is making is that there is a substantial risk of b-12 deficiency if you eat a vegan diet of any kind, raw or cooked and you don't supplement. And you can object all you like but his data bear him out on this. If you have some clinical data supporting your position, I'm all ears.

To any vegan, I suppose this is a personal decision. You can monitor your blood. But the risks to vegans of B-12 deficiency are real and the problem cannot be swept away with an anecdote or in my opinion a red herring. Using examples of meat eaters suffering from B-12 does nothing to enlighten or empower vegans struggling with what are very serious personal decisions about their health.
[jacknorrisrd.com]

Paul

Thanks for your post and link pborst. Love your input here! (and everybody's)

i love to link and run and do it on facebook quite a bit, but that's just the kind of guy i am

and oh,
[www.flickr.com]

and great info on b12 as well

david

Pborst, what was your quarrel with DR's post? And what was "his position" that you want clinical data for? He didn't state a position. And why or who are you talking about when you say "not relevant for us" as far as non-vegans' and their issues? You certainly don't speak for me. Please clarify. I understood your first post and Dr's post, but I feel like something is missing in between the two.

The point is durian trys to make out b12 deficiency is really common in meat eaters when it isnt common at all.

The study i was on about backs up that point also. Ive looked through every raw forum i post on and i cant find the link ahh.

Im also not sure why you'd think salt, garlic or chilli impact your b12 levels?

Utopian Life,

I don't get it either; I know Paul favors erring on the side of caution and supplementing B12 . . . but so does Harley.

I am not an expert, but I look up to experts - monkeys. They are our relatives (or so the modern scientists tell me) and they do not eat pure vegan diet. Also, they do not wash their food before eating. Their animal food intake is probably far less than 1% of what they eat, but it may be significant for B12.

We cannot get back to wild life and live like monkeys. But we can learn from them.

That is how I see things, anyway.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life,
>
> I don't get it either; I know Paul favors erring
> on the side of caution and supplementing B12 . . .
> but so does Harley.

That wasn't the point. The point is that diverting attention away from the risk to vegans by raising extraneous and, in my view, misleading perception that B-12 deficiency is prevalent among non-meat eaters does nothing to help inform vegans about the risks and choices they confront.

"is prevalent among meat eaters" correction

I'm washing all our food, and how! I know I've said it on here before but guys, my sister (vegan high raw healthy country livin' strong like horses lil' sis') got a freaking TERRIBLE parasite from veggies out of her own garden that took YEARS to recover from. NO joke, I will not eat it dirty ever again. Not if it grew in the ground. stuff off trees is less suspect to my mind but maybe I'm wrong there too.

Maybe what you consider prevalent and what DR considers prevalent is different. It's not like he put a number you're in a position to refute. And bringing up that meat eaters are also deficient in B12 doesn't deflect from the issue for me. Of course I'm not easily distracted.

.............



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 01:49AM by pborst.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was a recent study ill see if i can find the
> forum post again that said b-12 deficiency was
> still a big problem in vegans with 56% being
> deficient or too low levels.
>
> It also stated that these were vegans who were
> supplementing with b12 but i dont think it said
> what supplements.
>
> I post on some many forums i cant remember which
> one linked to the study.

The Giessen study is somewhat in line with this except finding this particular group of rawists generally not supplementing B-12 (only 12 of 201 (table 4 notes)). The raw vegans were somewhat more likely to have B-12 deficiency than the raw paleos and ovo-lacto groups (the "odds ratio" is not quite the same as saying "the odds" ), though all 201 participants had elevated tHcy --

"Plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations were low in 41%, marginal in 38%, and adequate in 21% of the participants. Plasma tHcy concentrations were elevated in 51% of the participants. Vitamin B-12 deficiency, defined as low plasma vitamin B-12 and elevated plasma tHcy, occurred in 38% and MCV > 96 fl in 12% of participants. None of the participants had low plasma folate concentrations.

"Vitamin B-12 supplements were used on a regular basis by 12 participants (data not included in Table 4). Plasma vitamin B-12 was higher and plasma tHcy was lower in subjects taking vitamin B-12 supplements than in participants not taking supplements. The plasma concentrations were 403.3 (257.9–1285.8) pmol/L for vitamin B-12, 39.4 (29.2–43.6) nmol/L for folate, and 12.9 (9.6–16.5) µmol/L for tHcy (P < 0.001).

"The odds ratio for having vitamin B-12 deficiency (low plasma vitamin B-12 with elevated plasma tHcy concentration) was 5.4 (95% CI 2.1–13.8) for vegan and 3.1 (95% CI 1.4–6.9) for ovo-lacto-vegetarian raw food diet adherents, with mixed raw food diet adherents as the reference. The frequency of vitamin B-12 deficiency was independent of the proportion of food consumed raw (data not shown).

"The main predictor of plasma tHcy was the dietary intake of vitamin B-12. No correlation was observed between plasma tHcy and folate intake. In a multiple linear regression analysis, plasma tHcy was correlated with plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations (partial r = –0.450, P < 0.001) (Fig. 1), but not with plasma folate (partial r = –0.076, P = 0.295). MCV was not related to plasma vitamin B-12, even after adjustment for plasma folate, serum ferritin, and transferrin."

[jn.nutrition.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 09:29AM by loeve.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .....though
> all 201 participants had elevated tHcy --
>

How can that be? I don't know why some are saying very recently tHcy is elevated when above 10.4 for women and 11.4 for men. The Giessen group were all at least a little above that. Who knows...

[en.wikipedia.org]

Loeve,

Thanks. I appreciate your post. You kind of have to look at mixed markers like that scratch your head and remind yourself that biomarkers are proxies, sometimes crude ones for human health outcomes. It would be helpful if we had a map about necessary and sufficient conditions to help guide similar to the idea that no human in a clinical trial has suffered a heart attack with total cholesterol below 150 notwithstanding that his hdl is low. (That's an assertion from Terri Shintani on Blackburn's work, never verified it). Anyway, thanks.

Paul

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Maybe what you consider prevalent and what DR
> considers prevalent is different.

Or maybe it doesn't matter, if the assertion is that b-12 is widespread among meaters, we don't need to quantify it to discuss it.

> It's not like
> he put a number you're in a position to refute.

Thanks Christine, I don't need a number when I am responding to an assertion.

> And bringing up that meat eaters are also
> deficient in B12 doesn't deflect from the issue
> for me. Of course I'm not easily distracted.

That's understandable given you already accept his position but not relevant to the argument overall that risks to vegans who don't supplement from B-12 deficiency are serious. Best.

Paul

Risks to everyone from developing b-12 deficiency are serious. It's all relevant to me.

I've looked and looked for a liquid B12 supplement to no avail, where are you guys finding yours? The super-extra-plus good health food store had nothing! It's for the kids, they can't swallow tablets.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Risks to everyone from developing b-12 deficiency
> are serious.

Not everyone.

"Who is at Risk of Vitamin B12 Deficiency?
According to the Office of Dietary Supplements, the main causes of vitamin B12 deficiency are dietary deficiency, inability to absorb B12 from food, pernicious anemia and postsurgical malabsorption. Many older adults may be unable to absorb enough vitamin B12 due to loss of acid in the stomach. Also, people who take medications that reduce bile or acid in the stomach are more likely to be at risk of vitamin B12 deficiency. Other people at risk of vitamin B12 deficiency include:

people with eating disorders
vegetarians (those who do not eat eggs or dairy products)
people infected with Helicobater pylori (H. pylori)
people who have tapeworm infection
people with pancreatic disease
people with HIV"

[vitamins-minerals.suite101.com]

"Risk Factors for Vitamin B12 Deficiency
“The clinical indications (for cobalamin deficiency) are of prime importance since routine screening tests, such as the blood count, are not always abnormal. The same criteria apply to both sexes and to all age groups, including preterm infants and children.” Amos, 1994

In the United States, most cases of vitamin B12 deficiency are due to malabsorption.

Patient characteristics that increase the likelihood of a vitamin B12 deficiency can be divided broadly into demographic and behavioral characteristics that increase the risk of inadequate dietary intake (malnutrition) and physiologic factors that increase the risk of malabsorption. Some factors, such as advanced age, might increase the risk of both malnutrition and malabsorption. In the United States, most cases of vitamin B12 deficiency are due to malabsorption rather than inadequate intake. We will review the more obvious demographic and behavioral “red flags” of aging and strict vegetarianism and vegan diets and then summarize the less readily apparent but more common physiologic factors that can affect absorption.

Demographic and Behavioral Risk Factors
The risk of developing a vitamin B12 deficiency increases with age.1, 6,16,21-23 The elderly, defined as individuals 65 years of age or older, are more likely to develop a vitamin B12 deficiency because they are at risk for both malabsorption and malnutrition. The frail elderly, especially, might have dietary insufficiency for a number of reasons, including cognitive dysfunction, social isolation, mobility limitations, and poverty.

In contrast to the importance of age, other demographic characteristics, including sex, race, and ethnicity, are not so important for predicting vitamin B12 deficiency. While several studies have found that mild cobalamin deficiency is most common in elderly White men and least common in Black or African-American and Asian-American women, 2,3,16,24 the differences are not sufficient to support sex- or race-specific nutrient recommendations. 10

A patient characteristic that should always raise the index of suspicion is long-term adherence to a strict vegetarian or vegan diet,10,16,25,26 because vegan diets exclude all forms of animal protein, including eggs and dairy products. Thoughtfully planned vegetarian diets that include eggs, milk, and yogurt can provide adequate amounts of vitamin B12. Short-term adherence to strict vegetarian and vegan diets might not cause a problem because of the large amount of vitamin B12 typically stored in the liver. However, it is prudent to advise all vegetarian and vegan patients, particularly if they are elderly or anticipating a pregnancy, to consume synthetic cobalamin daily, either by taking a supplement containing vitamin B12 or eating a serving of vitamin B12–fortified grain products.10 The requirement for vitamin B12 increases for pregnant and lactating women.10 To review the vitamin B12 content of a variety of vegetarian and vegan foods, see [www.nal.usda.gov].

Physiologic Factors
Malabsorption is the physiologic cause of vitamin B12 deficiency and can result from a number of conditions. Frequently mentioned are pernicious anemia; 7, 24 atrophic gastritis;3,10,27 gastric surgery (e.g., ileal resection and gastrectomy);11,16,28 presence of a cobalamin-utilizing fish tapeworm such as Diphyllobothrium latum;2,29 and other concurrent diseases such as Crohn disease, HIV infection,30,32 celiac sprue,33,34 and bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine.35 Rare cases have been attributed anesthetic nitrous oxide exposure.2,36

Among the elderly, atrophic gastritis and pernicious anemia are the main causes of malabsorption. Atrophic gastritis often develops as people age. With resulting hypochlorhydria and achlorhydria, the body does not produce enough pepsin and hydrochloric acid to release from protein the food-bound vitamin B12. In pernicious anemia, missing IF needed to attach B12 in the small intestine impairs the uptake of vitamin B12. Undiagnosed and untreated pernicious anemia affects 1%–2% of the elderly population. 24"

[www.cdc.gov]

yes, it's serious for everyone, Paul. sorry if you can't accept that or that's a problem for you.

What are the best sources of Vitamin B-12?



Anyone who clings to the historically untrue - and thoroughly immoral - doctrine 'that violence never settles anything' I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and of the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and freedom.

Robert Heinlein



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 10:01PM by Mean One.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> yes, it's serious for everyone, Paul. sorry if
> you can't accept that or that's a problem for you.

Thanks Christine. It's not a problem for me. Nor do I have to accept facts not in evidence. The risks to "everyone"... the general population of Vitamin B-12 deficiency are not known (see below) But, to the best of my knowledge, there is not a Vitamin B-12 epidemic in the general population. There is a higher risk among the groups in the prior article including vegans. But that doesn't translate into a serious risk for everyone. Once you encounter Vitamin B-12 deficiency, it's serious to be sure. But that's not the same thing as the risk of encountering it. And we don't know the prevalence of it, though it may be greater due to malabsorption in older Americans . [www.aafp.org]. That's different than the risk of malnutrition due low intake. The former is a risk for older Americans, the latter for vegans. But it's still an exaggeration to say that the risk of Vitamin B-12 deficiency is serious for everyone. Who by the way are you speaking for? You certainly don't speak for me.

Paul



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 10:15PM by pborst.

Its funny,people are debating with me but Im the longterm vegan thats an elite athlete and have my blood tests up on youtube to provide transparency.

I do a b12 shot every month or 3 and maintream bodybuilders average 1-3 per week. Just go read the forums at www.bodybuilding.com.

Giessen study? Please no studies using unfit/anorexic/breatharian/drug taking raw fooders that live on a high fat, low carb 50% raw diet.

Read the book 'could it be b12?'. Its written by meat eaters and has more scientific references on the b12 subject than any publication I know.

Pborst, what advice to you have to my raw plaeo mates that are b12 deficient? They say they are not eating enough raw animals yet they are already eating more than anyone they know. I advise them to supplement. Do you have any blood test vids up on youtube I could show them?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2010 11:35PM by durianrider.

durianrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ...
> Giessen study? Please no studies using
> unfit/anorexic/breatharian/drug taking raw fooders
> that live on a high fat, low carb 50% raw diet.
>
> ...

A bwahahaha would have made it clearer for me, tagged at the end.

"Study design and subjects. The study had a cross-sectional design. Dieters living in Germany who followed a raw food diet were recruited by advertisements in magazines, at congresses, and lectures as well as via self-help groups within the Natural Hygiene and raw food movement. Subjects were eligible if they were between 25 and 64 y of age, consumed at least 70% of total food intake as raw food, and had adhered to the raw food diet for at least 24 mo at the time of blood sampling. Smokers and subjects suffering from gastrointestinal diseases were excluded. The study was approved by the Ethics Committee of the Division of Human Medicine, University of Giessen, Germany. All participants gave written informed consent. [jn.nutrition.org]

The 201 raw fooders averaged around 30% caloric fat (raw vegan range 19-45, table 2).

Percent raw didn't affect B-12 status, the 100% rawists no better off than the 70% rawists, 70% caloric raw the cutoff point for being included in the study.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2010 11:56AM by loeve.

Sorry, Paul, if you read something that wasn't in my post or assumed what "it" meant. B-12 deficiency is serious for everyone.