First let me say that I am a fan of your videos and love your retorts to nay-sayers. In your vids you have mentioned that any carb is a good carb for the body, even for non-raw eaters. "Just eat carbs" I never worry about raw carbs but cooked grains with their gummy denatured carbs worry me a bit. What is your opinion about this video from runningraw: [www.youtube.com]

And this: [www.youtube.com]

Read the Grain Damage by Douglas Graham to get the info about the grains... damage.

Thanks for posting these links RocketShip. Very entertaining and interesting. I'm not sure of all the information in the second video, but it's interesting for sure. I like Tim VanOrden. He seems like such a nice guy. I hope he didn't freeze his toes!

Durainrider, I was wondering about something similar myself, because I'm curious about what you wrote in a recent article:

[www.30bananasaday.com]

You wrote:

"Sweet fruit is the best health & vitality food. Cooked starches are next best. I like the best so I go for sweet fruits."

But.... you've also written that you don't advise eating only fruit. So if you don't eat only fruit, and if you believe that cooked starches are the next best food to fruit, do you eat cooked starches?

According to Stu Mittleman (ultra runner) you teach your body to burn fat by running slow. I'm not sure that Tim van Orden is right on this not eating carbs before your run business. It will be interesting to see if his results are affected by this. The guy is amazing though.

> But.... you've also written that you don't advise
> eating only fruit. So if you don't eat only
> fruit, and if you believe that cooked starches are
> the next best food to fruit, do you eat cooked
> starches?

I believe he's referring to tender leafy greens, non sweet fruits, and nuts and seeds, not cooked starches.



Swayze
[www.fitonraw.com]

flipperjan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> According to Stu Mittleman (ultra runner) you
> teach your body to burn fat by running slow. I'm
> not sure that Tim van Orden is right on this not
> eating carbs before your run business. It will be
> interesting to see if his results are affected by
> this. The guy is amazing though.

Endurance athletes source of energy is fatty acids/fats not carbs as durian has states.

Short term exercise relies on carbs/glycogen as the source of energy.

Hi Swayze,

Thanks for your thoughtful suggestion.

To be more clear perhaps, my question to Durianrider is: Since you consider cooked starches to be the next best food to fruit, do you eat cooked starches?

[www.30bananasaday.com]

Hi flipperjan. Hey, if Stu Mittleman is correct, hooray! (I'm a slow runner.)
Good luck on training for the ultra!

I think what Stu Mittleman says makes sense. My understanding is that when we begin to exercise very strenuously (like during a short sprint), our bodies utilize anaerobic respiration, which enables us to access only our most quickly available energy source - stored carbs (glucose stored as glycogen). But our bodies don't store a lot of carbs, so a sprint will use up those carbs very quickly. For long-distance running, endurance athletes utilize aerobic respiration which is not only more efficient for converting glucose to ATP (metabolizing 18 times more ATP from glucose), but also converts other nutrients - mostly fatty acids - to ATP. According to Essential Physiology and Anatomy (Seeley, Stephens, Tate), "Muscles udergoing long-term exercise, such as during long-distance running, depend primarily on aerobic respiration for ATP synthesis. Although some glucose is used as an energy source, fatty acids are a more important energy source during both sustained exercise and resting conditions."

So running slowly would help us to avoid triggering anaerobic respiration and using up all our carbs. Instead, running slowly would be more likely to trigger aerobic respiration, thus relying more on fatty acid metabolism for energy and also metabolizing our glucose stores more slowly and more efficiently (converting our glucose stores to more ATP).

Van Orden's scenario of not eating carbs pre-exercise for the purpose of forcing fatty-acid metabolism seems somewhat unnecessary and perhaps even self-defeating, since aerobic metabolism doesn't appear to depend on the absence of glucose (carbs), but rather on the development/training of oxygen-utilizing (aerobic metabolizing) muscle fibers, especially the slow-twitch oxygen-and-blood-rich (type I) muscle fibers that are more resistant to fatigue, and more common to long-distance runners.

But I'm sure there's information out there that I'm not aware of. Too bad Van Orden didn't give a reference.

Powerlifer, I believe you're correct: "Endurance athletes source of energy is fatty acids/fats not carbs as durian has stated.

Short term exercise relies on carbs/glycogen as the source of energy."

Or for sure at least, fatty acids/fats are the primary source of energy for endurance athletes.

Thanks for posting all that Suncloud.

In all that you have read, do you agree with runningraw (VanOrden) that the switch from glucose burning to fatty acid burning takes place after about 30 minutes exercising?

Good post suncloud and correct, ive been trying to explain this on many of durians videos for ages but still havent got through to him that endurance athletes primary source of energy is fatty acids/fats. Which brings up the question is a low fat diet optimal for endurance athletes?

I find it interesting DR has never replied to this thread but has posted in other threads so you know he's been on.

Hi Rocketship,

I'm just starting to learn about this, but according to a chart from Textbook of Work Physiology (P.O Astrand and K. Rodahl):

In the first 10 seconds, the ratio is 10% aerobic/90% anaerobic. In 2 minutes, it's already 50%/50%. In 10 minutes, the ratio is 85% aerobic/10% anaerobic. In 30 minutes, the ratio is 95% aerobic/5% anaerobic.

We might keep in mind that although aerobic respiration burns mostly fatty acids, it also burns some glucose (and some protein) as well. And the amount of ATP supplied by both aerobic and anaerobic respiration will vary during a workout, depending on the intensity.

For example, say a person has been running along at a comfortable pace on an even terrain. Respiration is mostly aerobic. But now here comes a steep hill. Even though the person may have used much of their immediately available stores of glycogen and ATP/PCr during the first few minutes of their run, those stores have been replenished somewhat and are now available again for going up the hill. Good thing, because aerobic respiration requires oxygen. That's why the person is breathing heavier going up the hill: it's hard to get the oxygen quickly enough for the extra work. Anaerobic respiration comes to the rescue! Since it doesn't require oxygen, it temporarily kicks in with some extra energy to help out. (Life is so cool!)

A couple of pertinent quotes from Essentials of Physiology and Anatomy:

"Anaerobic metabolism is ultimately limited by depletion of glucose and a buildup of lactic acid within the muscle fiber".

(Lactic acid is an end product of anaerobic respiration and can irritate muscle fibers, causing short-term pain).

"With exercise and training, a person's ability to carry out both aerobic and anaerobic activities is enhanced."

Thanks!

My old sports coach used to say that its commonly thought to be lactic acid build up but its actually lactate that causes those effects.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My old sports coach used to say that its commonly
> thought to be lactic acid build up but its
> actually lactate that causes those effects.

Oh. Thanks powerlifer!

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for posting these links RocketShip. Very
> entertaining and interesting. I'm not sure of all
> the information in the second video, but it's
> interesting for sure. I like Tim VanOrden. He
> seems like such a nice guy. I hope he didn't
> freeze his toes!
>
> Durainrider, I was wondering about something
> similar myself, because I'm curious about what you
> wrote in a recent article:
>
> [www.30bananasaday.com]-
> end-chronic-fatigue
>
> You wrote:
>
> "Sweet fruit is the best health & vitality food.
> Cooked starches are next best. I like the best so
> I go for sweet fruits."
>
> But.... you've also written that you don't advise
> eating only fruit. So if you don't eat only
> fruit, and if you believe that cooked starches are
> the next best food to fruit, do you eat cooked
> starches?

Suncloud,

It looks to me like Harley edited that part out rather than respond after you posted, though he left a vestage of cooked starches in the post I saw.

Paul

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > It looks to me like Harley edited that part out
> rather than respond after you posted, though he
> left a vestage of cooked starches in the post I
> saw.
>

I just read it in the article:
"2. Eat over 10g of carbs per kg of bodyweight per day. Sweet fruit is the best health & vitality food. Cooked starches are next best. I like the best so I go for sweet fruits. "

For a guy like myself who weighs around 85kg of lean muscle, 850+g of carbohydrates is too much in my opinion to be healthy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2010 07:50PM by powerlifer.

Well, I like how I feel best from eating sweet, high-water content fruit. Durianrider eats a ton of bananas and dates, neither of which make me feel all that great. Though they're a lot better than eating tons of nuts or seeds, and DR runs and bikes all over the place, so he burns through it. He definitely doesn't eat cooked starches, though.
Once you start feasting on fresh, tropical fruit, nothing else really compares, IMO.

omega-3 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Once you start feasting on fresh, tropical fruit,
> nothing else really compares, IMO.>
>
>

Agreed! I used to power munch bananas but haven't done it in a long time so a couple days ago thought I would have a banana breakfast. I managed 3 before my body started screaming "No more!". They were heavy in my stomach and I did not feel good afterwards. I have become accustomed to the juicy fruits. Love the Nanas but not as a meal for me.

Would like Durianrider's opinion on these video interviews of Brian Clements and his portrayal of protein and fruits in the raw diet:

[www.youtube.com]
[www.youtube.com]

OMG... durianrider care package. LOL
[www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2010 10:12AM by RocketShip.

Another weekend arrives with no reply. *sigh*

Good video. VERY interested in the burning fat instead of carbs idea.

I was thinking COCONUT OILS/FATS. If you research it is supposed to be VERY beneficial especially before workouts hm... because it's short to medium chain fatty acids which means it assimilates quickly.

regarding the second video that Rocketship posted.

I don't get how sprouts, blue/green algae and green algae can be the mainstay of ones diet with vegetables as a 'condiment'!!

Clement says that he and his family consume a maximum of 5% of their food a day from fruit and that the maximum a very healthy person should consume is 15% a day.

I did smile when he talked about cheer leader addicts of fruit (sugar) - please respond Durianrider.

However he must eat something other than seaweed to maintain that spare tyre!!!

I haven't read Brian Clement's books but I guess that he's just saying that these are essential.

He's not even saying that all he eats is seaweed.

And I think it's more like: Sprouts (sprouted grains and easily digested legumes, sprouted seed) and greens (ie greens from the sprouts or just greens in general), and seaweeds (green and blue-green).

Following this protocol is not that bad. BABY Sprouted grains, legumes, and seeds provide enough carbs, fat and protein. Sprouted greens are basically greens in general. Algae are more greens but this time with added benefits, and a different classes of protein ie, like taurine from nori and carageenan. plus they have iodine, DHA from the natural oils in them (small amounts tho), etc.

Then other others can be condiments.

Also keep in mind, his diet is one of CLEANSING/DETOX. I always keep that in mind. It's a diet that is meant for the current conditions of humanity where the body is in a WEAKENED state. It's a protocol, maybe most wouldn't adopt it as a lifestyle.

Still his main arguments about fruit have only been that for one they are cultivated to contain more sugar than is natural, and that they are not tree ripened. There are some that don't need to be tree ripened, but some do.

There is the other, that going from an unhealthy SAD diet, and even cooked carb diets, with meat, etc. The immune system is weakened the ability to process CARBS AND SUGARS have also been compromised. The body has a lot of junk.

So taking this into account, the hippocrates PROTOCOL is ok by me.

Yeah, we have to remember that Brian Clement's protocol is tailored more to serious disorder reversal, like diabetes and cancer, than another raw foods regimen may be.

I am in the process of selling my home so I can move to warmer weather. When I do I am going to take my brother to the Hippocrates health institute and we are going to go through a program or two together. I am relatively healthy but he has diabetes, kidney disease, and has seisures associated with the diabetes. I want to see if they can help him.

What type of diabetes does he have rocketship? type 1 i take it?

sorry to hear.

Sorry about your brother, RocketShip. How awful. Hopefully, he is engaged in improving his health and will experience great benefits from the Hippocrates protocol. A very old friend of my family who is amazingly vibrant in her early seventies, due to her "squirrel diet," swears by their programs. Good luck selling the house, btw