Hey Folks,

Question...I read that if vegetables have a bitter taste, spicy or sour taste
then they are likely not to be eaten. This would mean that plants have set up a defense and even toxins in it to prevent being eaten.

Would you agree with this?

Dark Kale is hard to eat sometimes...it has tons and tons of amazing nutrients
but wouldnt it have toxins as well?

In nature, animals would steer away from anything bitter no?

would love to hear some feedback.
thanks..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 01:08AM by willows101.

You do have a point.

People often try to compare (conceptualize) humans and/or their society to animals and 'nature'. Animals in nature differ in the foods that they find appealing. Those primates that are closest to humans genetically vary in their taste. Different primates are built differently. Some prefer leafs...some grass...some fruit. Many eat insects, and some are even somewhat predatory and eat other animals.

To answer your question: the so-called bitter taste of Kale or other vegetables might indicate some toxicity...but certainly less toxic than the 'sweeter' taste of a Dr. Pepper and snickers bar. Heh..heh. This is just my opinion. So: for those whose diets are very simple and pure...they may indeed wish to avoid Kale. For the others, I'm sure Kale is fine.

If YOUR intuition is steering you away from bitter veggies (or bitter whatever) then I would follow it!

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Who says that animals in nature would stay away from anything bitter?

peter b wrote, "Who says that animals in nature would stay away from anything bitter?"



Willows wrote it and DMZ concurred or weren't you reading?

maybe to answer my question i should ask...are there any toxins in dark kale?
Because i find Kale bitter when eaten raw and alone.

thanks

Willows



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2009 02:52AM by willows101.

Thats an interesting question.
I eat some bitter foods like garlic to jazz up my fresh raw salad dressing and used in small amounts they can taste very good. However I don't like to eat garlic cloves by themselves. Maybe you have to have bitter to have sweet so the full spectrum of bitter/sweet is not necessarily just a one way or the other issue ?

Willows - when i began my raw journey I worried about eating the 'right ' things and enough of them etc. etc. Sometimes i didn't like things and i thought 'oh no this is good for me and everyone says it's full of this and that nutrient and i don't like it'.

I really thought that I could never really, truly enjoy a salad without dressing etc. So then I allowed my self the dressing, avoided the foods i didn't really like and so on. then over the months I found the dressing too oily so I tried without it and wow - the salad was so much better on it's own.

I suppose what I am trying to say is like DZM eat what appeals to you and what you enjoy. Your tastebuds will probably change over the years and months and you will settle into what suits you.

I'm not sure about this bitter/toxin thing. I do not enjoy kale raw and so i do not bother with it but that is not to say that in a year or so i might nibble a bit and discover that I really do like it.

As other will tell you, listen to your own gut feelings and try not to be swayed by other peoples vehement assertions about what you 'must' or 'must not' eat.

Willows:

To answer your question: No. I can find little or no reference to any Kale toxicity or harm. There is SOME oxalic acid in Kale...like many greens...but very little:

[www.nal.usda.gov]

And here's the basic Wiki:

[en.wikipedia.org]

-Even 'ornamental' Kales are still part of the Brassica family (like all cabbages) and Kale is very close to being simply a 'wild cabbage'. If you can dig cabbage, then Kale should be fine for you! In any event, don't take my word for it. Do the legwork yourself, and eat it for a week...and see how it appeals to you! Power & Success to you.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

If bitter is bad for a person then Dandelion greens must be a killer cause they sure are bitter.

> Who says that animals in nature would stay away
> from anything bitter?

Good question peter b. I have noticed that the rabbits and deer eat dandelion during the winter here, when food is relatively scarse (and the leaves have lost some of their bitterness).

I have a wild mustang horse and when we first got her she ate some of the bitter plants in the yard, which was very surprising to us because the domestic horses would not touch these plants One of the weeds is called dock and the leaves are real bitter but she ate it. She would not eat carrots or the grain we fed her we had to teach her to eat carrots and grain by putting the food in her mouth. Now she eats these foods but not the sour dock. So animals in the wild will eat bitter plants but not the poisoness plants like tansy or rotodinderan. They have an awareness of what is healthy for them. I think we can have that awareness as well but because of the processed foods we lost it. I think kale is good but I like spinach better.

I find I can go overboard with approaching foods like a botanist. Most everything raw, even fruits, can have some unpleasant flavor component initially. But we still must eat. If you go to the zoo and watch the chimps and such, they love bitter greens. Possibly because the phytochemical compounds in them include caretenoids and sulfurs which are deadly to many classes of pathogens that infect primates, and to cancer cells. My dog dashes for any stray leaf of chard or kale that falls to the floor so greedily, that I've just relented and started giving him greens before his evening meal. As dzm says, it's a matter of proportion--a pound of kale every week vs. a pound of candy bars. I'll take my chances with the kale!

My main worry about foods such as this is whether they're laced with perchlorates from being grown in California, Land of the Vapor Trail. But that's another kind of toxicity already discussed elsewhere at length. Happy chomping!

Remember wild animals follow their intuition on what to and not to eat. It all depends on what your body is needing at the time. So perhaps your body is needing to stay away from bitter foods right now. Or perhaps you are simply exploring ideas. Many fruits and vegetables do create defenses from being eaten. Perhaps these defenses are meant for humans, perhaps not. All the wonderful phytonutrients that we find in so many fruits and vegetables are indeed a plants' defense from biting insects. However, we have found these chemical defenses very good for our bodies.

Haida

interesting info perhaps


[www.waidiet.com]

fresh,

This IS interesting; omitting the fish and eggs, rather a fruitarian diet. I find it very odd that she includes oils and sugar, however. I mean, sugar? Huh? Thanks for posting the link.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
This IS interesting; omitting the fish and eggs, raher a fruitarian diet. I find it very odd that she includes oils and sugar, however. I mean, sugar? Huh? Thanks for posting the link.

---Tamukha, huh....? So, do you mean that Wai research and finding regarding specifically plants/vegetables and their adverse effects on human organism is false and incorrect...?
---The question/topic here is about vegetables, about their bitternes, and the meaning behind...
---In my mind, it is a fact: all plants defend themselves and their seeds, not to be eaten, and use different ways of protecting and signalling: unappealing smell/taste, bitternes, toxicity and digestion inhibitors ("anti-nurients", etc resulting in adverse effects upon the feeding organism.
---Eating vegetables/"bitter greens" by mixing and blending them with sweet/well tasting fruits is an improper and harmful practice, IME...- it is really a fooling of your body/self...

Haida Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Many fruits and vegetables do create defenses from being eaten.

---plants/vegetables defend themselves and their seeds, yes..., but they allow and promote their fruits containing seeds to be taken and to be eaten and to be spread in order to expand and grow..., it is why fruits are so appealing in taste and smell and rewarding in offering nourishment and energy..., plant in order to compete and survive put its effort to maintain its fruit being attractive to consume...
---So, I do not understand your logic on fruits being defended...?

(OBS! Fruit is protected by skin which contain toxins/anti-nutrients to keep safe the content against insects/parasites (pesticides..., but fruit eating animals-humans usually learn to peel the skin off before consuming the fruit, it is what I do..





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2009 10:18AM by justin1.

justin1 Wrote:

>
> ---Tamukha, huh....? So, do you mean that Wai
> research and finding regarding specifically
> plants/vegetables and their adverse effects on
> human organism is false and incorrect...?

what about their affect on other primates?
and why do other primates eat them?


> ---Eating vegetables/"bitter greens" by mixing and
> blending them with sweet/well tasting fruits is an
> improper and harmful practice, IME...- it is
> really a fooling of your body/self...

agreed

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
what about their affect on other primates? and why do other primates eat them?

---plant eating primates have for that purpose specifically developed organism digestion system and adapted eating behavior...
---for example, elephants "eat" mud to "neutralize" the adverse toxic effects of plants..., etc...
---...you cannot just copy the dieting/eating behaviour of primates and make it of human..., in that case you should include insects, animal meat (incl. of own species), bird eggs, etc..., even your own feaces..., IF you think and believe that diet of apes/monkeys is closest to a human diet...
---make sense..?

justin1 Wrote:

> ---plant eating primates have for that purpose
> specifically developed organism digestion system
> and adapted eating behavior...

not talking about elephants or gorillas.

i would think that bonobos have virtually the same physiology and biology and taste senses that we do.

> ---for example, elephants "eat" mud to
> "neutralize" the adverse toxic effects of
> plants..., etc...
> ---...you cannot just copy the dieting/eating
> behaviour of primates and make it of human...

i have no interest in doing so.
point is that ostensibly bonobos for example are more instinctive than we are, yet they eat all those things you mention. why?
lack of shopping centers?
hunger?


> IF you think and believe that
> diet of apes/monkeys is closest to a human
> diet...

i think they are. what other animal would be closer?
its instructive to observe and analyze related animals eating behavior, just like lions and tigers are similar.

justin,

I mostly agree with fresh's responses to your posts. As for Wai, it's not really a fruitarian regimen because of the processed oil and sugar.

And as for whether things taste slightly noxious as a way of warding off predators--you can use this as a justification for not consuming anything from the plant kingdom. Plants are supposed to carry on genetic offspring, but that doesn't mean they're inedible to humans[or primates, say]. Those nasty flavors are believed by botanists to be natural isecticides and fungicides, not primatocides(not a real word ) If they were, kale would be literally poisonous to humans, but many raw foodists with the same physiology as you or I thrive on them, rather than experiencing anaphylaxis, right?

As for fruit with bitter peels, for the sake of the argument, I can pretend that that's analogous to the bitter taste of arugula and say we're not supposed to eat that orange because its peel is bitter. And you may be fine with that, but most of the Vitamin C of that orange is just under the peel, so I suppose we should consume some part of the peel, bitter or not. And that's my point: I prefer to think the acridness of so many mineral and vitamin rich foods indicates that they have chemical properties that are more deadly to pathogens that are deadly to us, rather than deadly to us directly.

I think everyone who has said this is right--just eat what makes you feel good, and avoid the stuff your body seems to reject.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2009 01:28PM by Tamukha.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>Those nasty flavors are believed by botanists to be natural isecticides and fungicides, not primatocides(not a real word )

interesting point, although i would agree with justin for the most part.
it's just that using his criteria we would eat only fruit, and while that's virtually what i do, almost no animals do that. we can't ignore that fact, although it may simply be a matter of them eating what is available.

Tamukha - good article here - you might like this

[en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2009 01:54PM by fresh.

fresh,

Very good article, thanks for posting! I especially like the part where it describes orangutans' favorite fruits:

"One of their preferred foods is the fruit of the durian tree, which tastes somewhat like sweet, cheesy, garlic custard."

Mmmm, sounds irresistible!