[So if they can't come to a collective gathering then maybe they are off on the whole B12 issue? ]

No. Vegans can have high folate levels which can mask a B12 deficiency if only B12 plasma levels are used.

They look at related enzyme activity because these are the more sensitive markers of problems.

Why only vegans where do the meat eaters get it from?

Global, the masked-due-to-folate thing probably is more frequent in vegans since they tend to eat more fruits and vegetables, but the B12 problem strikes all who have problems either assimilating what they eat (over 50 ominivores usually) as well as those who don't eat it or enough of it (vegans).

This is a good summary:
[www.veganoutreach.org]

I thought B12 is found in soil in fruits and veggies so the vegan should be increasing the odds right?

Yes, there is going to be some in the soil if it is organically grown (might be near zero for conventionally grown). But you don't know if there is going to be nearly enough in the soil so as to make your body level acceptable. Because you don't know how much is there it's better to play it safe.

The only documented case of enough from the soil that I recall is an Iranian vegan community that used their own manure as fertilizer--we have lots of it in our lower intestines but it is too far down in the gastrointestinal tract for us to absorb, but if we use what comes out that is a different story.

Even this is risky unless you get yourself tested every six months or so.

Also fertilizing plants with human waste is illegal in the USA. If you do it don't tell anybody.

I just got off the phone with my old vegan hippie friend and was talking about this b12 thing .. she said well ya know .. 1 in 3 kitchen workers dont wash their hands after going to the toilet so if ya go out to eat once in awhile your probably covered

GAG .. i am so grossed out now lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Thanks,

The how are meat eaters getting there B12 then from?

Hi
Animal products contain B12, and it'a actually a bacteria, or produced by a bacteria. Can't remember which.

Arugula is right, there's plenty in our bowel, and I would suggest the bowel of all animals. Many animals eat portions of there own 'business' at times, like gorillas for instance, which means their B12 needs are taken care of.

Now I'm not suggesting we do the same, lol, but humans have become overly sterile. Though I'm sure that if we have pets, we'd be getting B12 from them.

One source I came across postulated that it was not that people with a deficiency don't get enough in their diet, but that the problem was absorbtion through intestinal inefficiency or other causes. Since raw vegans have superior quality food and a more efficient digestive system, then I have trouble believing we could become deficient. Being raw foodists, we'd no doubt pick up B12 that 'cooking' would destroy. I'm sure I eat my share of 'dirt', and the amount of B12 we actually need is quite small.

Cheers geo

BTW, I asked for 'academic' research sources, which means peer reviewed, scholarly articles, or articles/books with said academic citations which can be verified, and not random 'googling or 'wikipedia'. There maybe great articles and accuracy to be found...or not. 'Google Scholar' on the other hand isn't bad, and can be accessed by all. Just 'google' google scholar, it's listed in our library database as well.

At my Uni, if students cite 'wikipedia' as a reference in any of their assignments, they're automatically failed.

I read papers all the time, and I think Wiki keeps getting better and better. A good Wiki article will have top notch refs and links for nearly every statement.

B12 is produced by bacteria. All animals need B12.

No, being raw does not help with uptake. It's been studied in the Hallelujah Acres people. They supplement now:

Ann Nutr Metab. 2000;44(5-6):229-34. Links
Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements.

Donaldson MS.
Hallelujah Acres Foundation, Shelby, N.C., USA. michael@hacres.com
BACKGROUND: Pure vegetarian diets might cause cobalamin deficiency due to lack of dietary intake. It was hypothesized that a population following a vegan diet consuming mostly raw fruits and vegetables, carrot juice, and dehydrated barley grass juice would be able to avoid vitamin B12 deficiency naturally. METHODS: Subjects were recruited at a health ministers' reunion based on adherence to the Hallelujah diet for at least 2 years. Serum cobalamin and urinary methylmalonic acid (MMA) assays were performed. Follow-up with sublingual tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements was carried out on subjects with abnormal MMA results. RESULTS: 49 subjects were tested. Most subjects (10th to 90th percentile) had followed this diet 23-49 months. 6 subjects had serum B12 concentrations <147 pmol/l (200 pg/ml). 37 subjects (76%) had serum B12 concentrations <221 pmol/l (300 pg/ml). 23 subjects (47%) had abnormal urinary MMA concentrations above or equal to 4.0 microg/mg creatinine. Sublingual cyanocobalamin and nutritional yeast, but not probiotic supplements, significantly reduced group mean MMA concentrations (tablet p < 0.01; yeast p < 0.05, probiotic > 0.20). CONCLUSIONS: The urinary MMA assay is effective for identifying early metabolic cobalamin deficiency. People following the Hallelujah diet and other raw-food vegetarian diets should regularly monitor their urinary MMA levels, consume a sublingual cobalamin supplement, or consume cobalamin in their food.
PMID: 11146329

Re Dr Virginia Vetrano, I've been trying to get hold of her book 'Errors in Hygiene?', but sites selling it won't ship to UK. Anyone know anywhere that does? (Or have an old copy that they wouldn't mind parting with?)

Anyone who wonders about this:

[www.webmd.com]
[www.the-vitamin-and-supplement-guide.com]

I learned this stuff in high school. Deficiencies are classified according to cataloguing of demonstrable and consistent symptoms in a given population over time and given certain conditions. Diagnosis parameters may be modified as new data come in, but it's not like scientists are sitting around making this stuff up. And this isn't some medical conspiracy against vegans.

Hey, there's plenty of great info out there as I have stated, also heaps of misinformation, people with vested interests, bias, exagerations and downright lies.

Just because an article is written by a person with letters after their name, or Sady the cleaning lady, doesn't make it true. Peer reviewed literature is just that, an article submitted for publication in a journal, is reviewed by other 'experts' in the same field as the articles author before approval.

I've found that what most general .com (commercial) articles say is 'definite', is actually only 'suggestive' in the original data. It depends how deep you want to dig.

I regularly check the citations by non-academic sources, and have found inaccuracies due to contexual mismatch, misquotatons and non-disclosure of all significant/relevent data.

Thx for the 'Hallelujah Acres' reference Arugula, but my thoughts on that study are this. Firstly, did those who took part in the study have definate symptoms of B12 deficiency? (or is this in the full text?) Secondly, the criteria for a optimum serum level is based on a sample group taken from the general population, considered to be healthy, and whose diet would be a SAD.

Really, nothing is 'dyed in the wool' true. There's always that new bit of research that can turn the tables on accepted data, such as the earth isn't flat and not the centre of the universe.

Just because an individual or group is so called 'deficient' in some food element, that doesn't automatically make them unhealthy, or in need of supplementation, though it's always implied.


Well, I'm just about exhausted re this subject, and I stand by one of my earlier statements that nutritional science is a house of cards built on a shaky foundation, with psychology playing a major role.

[Firstly, did those who took part in the study have definate symptoms of B12 deficiency? (or is this in the full text?) Secondly, the criteria for a optimum serum level is based on a sample group taken from the general population, considered to be healthy, and whose diet would be a SAD. ]

Here is what Michael Donaldson said about it, he is their nutritionist. I suggest that if you are still skeptical you should write to him. You can contact the Hallelujah Acres people here:

[www.hacres.com]


The full paper is here:
[www.hacres.com]


And here are excerpts:

What happens if I don’t consume vitamin B12?

Though the requirements are very low, deficiencies among vegetarians have been
noted. There are at least 10 case reports in the medical literature of infants suffering severe neurological damage when solely breast-fed by their totally vegetarian mothers (4-15). Most of the damage is reversible by vitamin B12 supplementation. Also, every study of vegan communities or populations has demonstrated low vitamin B12 concentrations in 40-90 percent of the group. Since many of these studies only measured serum cobalamin concentrations, they underestimated the number of people with metabolic deficiencies.
This includes macrobiotic communities (16-20), natural hygienists (21), "living food" vegans (22), vegan Seventh Day Adventists (23-26), and followers of The Hallelujah Diet®.

Our study revealed early signs of vitamin B12 deficiency in 26 of the 54 people
tested, after following The Hallelujah Diet® for as little as 2 to 4 years.
Two important facts need to be noted. First, many, if not most, vegans have
impaired vitamin B12 metabolism. This has been verified time and again in vegan groups. Second, metabolic deficiency of vitamin B12 can be detected after as little as 22 months on The Hallelujah Diet®. While serum vitamin B12 levels may still be normal for several more years, the body, especially the central nervous system, may be deficient at the cellular level. 83% of the people in our study with metabolic vitamin B12 deficiency had normal levels of serum vitamin B12. These facts have not been widely appreciated by the vegetarian community.

Based on the published studies and our results, adequate vitamin B12 status of
vegans cannot be taken for granted. Pregnant women, nursing mothers, infants, and
small children are particularly vulnerable to B12 shortages. Ensuring adequate B12 is critical for normal neurological development and maintenance, with shortages resulting in permanent damage.

Deficiency of vitamin B12 leads to anemia and neurological abnormalities.
Vegetarians' abundant dietary intake of folate masks much of the anemia due to vitamin B12 deficiency. So the first signs of vitamin B12 deficiency are neurological symptoms. These symptoms can include parathesia, especially numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, diminution of vibration sense and/or position sense (usually but not always occurring first in the ankles and feet), unsteadiness, poor muscular coordination with ataxia, moodiness, mental slowness, poor memory, confusion, agitation, and depression. Delusions, hallucinations, and even overt psychosis (usually with paranoid ideas) may occur (27). By the time vitamin B12 deficiency can be detected clinically significant neurological damage has already occurred and an aggressive supplementation program should be begun with methylcobalamin. Symptoms caused by a deficiency can usually be alleviated by vitamin B12 supplementation.

Healthy vegans with a healthy bowel flora should produce B12 in their small
intestine. This may be the natural way God intended for us to receive our vitamin B12, but our study showed that this was not a reliable and sufficient source of B12. All people produce B12 in their colon, but this is not available for the body since B12 is absorbed in the small intestine. Improving the bowel flora by using probiotic supplements (L. acidophilus, B. bifidus, etc.) may be helpful for supplying vitamin B12. However, our study revealed that daily use for 3 months of either of two different brands of probiotics was not sufficient to restore people’s vitamin B12 status to normal.

---

I am truly baffled as to why people are still so reluctant to accept this information. It won't cost more than a few dollars a year to prevent these problems, it isn't going to make Big Pharma or anyone else rich, and it makes the denial vegans look like whack jobs.

We don't always agree on how much fruit how much fat etc. those are trivial quibbles compared to this. B12: you need it. Make sure you get enough. That is all.

So you ate Vegan but what kind of Vegan a Veganjunkaterian how was your lifestyle?

I think shedding some light on this might reveal to you and others what happened.

Of course only you can be honest about what you type.

Arugula

I read Donanldson's entry, and he has referenced. So thx for the link, I'll check the sources.

Listen, I'm not being skeptical for the sake of it. There is so much corruption out there, and masses of info for and against, not just B12, but most everything. I want to sweep aside the dross, and at least find the gold, or at least sparkle of truth. I don't believe anything that people say these days, I want to see the evidence for myself.

What strikes me with all the studies is that not all people exhibit symptoms or are deficienct, which is explained by various absorbtion rates, but then it's said they have a defiecency on a 'cellular' level. Now I'll have to check that one out too.

I would think that in the beginning, as you suggested Arugula, that we were created with the ability to gain all we need through fruit/vegetation, and our own body's synthesising. If that be the case, then humanity has regressed far from that perfection.

So while I do not believe we were 'meant' to eat animal products, physiologically speaking, it's a possibility that we need it now in some form, at least occasionally.

I'll keep researching this, thx for everone for your imput.

I take complex B. Is it better ?

Tamukha

He is trying to promote his products Xtend-Life Natural Products has the disciplined quality control systems and processes in place!

Don't trust this source.

Just because something is repeated in the medical community does not make it true or right this is true of Aids and other goof ups.

I still would like to know how Meat eaters obtain there B12 over Raw or Vegans?

globalresult,

Just because a supplement may be attached to a website or to the clinician citing the data(they have to make a living, duh) does not mean that the data referenced are inherently faulty. I didn't notice anything dodgey about the core information in the links I posted above. Again, scientists aren't sitting around making this stuff up. Here is a non pedagogical source, which may or may not be selling something--I don't care, as the import of the article is vetted nutrition information that reiterates what I learned in high school biology, college biology, and cooking school. That is, accepted theory. In any case, it easily answers your question about B12 from meat-based diets; see paragraphs 1-4:

[bobbyrock.wordpress.com]

Sorry if anyone's posted this link already!

Thanks,

The scientist are paid by someone they would not be able to function as scientist if they where not funded.

I am still yet to understand how in the world a meat eater gets his B12 and a vegan does not?

It makes no sense to me.

Meat eaters for the most eat very little greens so this is why I find this to be very bizarre.

Just because it is accepted theroy does not mean it is right.

Look at the Aids virus for example many believe this nonsense because the nonsense is passed on without questioning the source.

This was another good point why is it while fasting peoples B12 increases afterwards?

Raw diet works everytime.

www.rawenergyonline.com