If anyone here water fasts for prolonged periods of time whilst also remaining active, please make sure you do the necessary blood tests and check your potassium levels to prevent any heart seizure.

Please read the below post; It's so shocking to know about those mishaps which could have been avoided if proper health precautions and necessary procedures were implemented.

[30bananasadaysucks.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 10:05AM by Duke.

Duke, I think a cursory examination of these threads will tell you we all know to rest while water fasting.

[Who doesn't know this? Seriously.]

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duke, I think a cursory examination of these
> threads will tell you we all know to rest while
> water fasting.
>
> doesn't know this? Seriously.]

I dont know about your protocols but i read this alarming news and i thought i would share it with everyone else.

Also from the threads i ve been reading, some people are still asking what to eat and what not to eat and how much to exercise and such, so i am pretty sure they will find this piece of information i posted interesting and they might want to consider it when they do water fasting in the future.

I prefer intermittent fasting myself, and if i were to go on a prologued fast, i d rather juice fast than water fast.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 01:36PM by Duke.

I heard about this a while back from a friend and don't know what to think. Surely Doug's fasting retreats have pre and post physicals?.

The fact that the majority at his fasting retreats are there to probably overcome health problems, you would think that Doug would make it requirement that every individual undergoes a Pre and Post physical examination incase hidden blood sugar issues such as diabetes are found etc.

11 thousand pounds to water fast with no PRE or POST medicals let alone care on hand during and regular blood sugar testing etc ?. This is serious topic we are talking about here.

I am not a fan of water fasting at all and think in many cases it can be dangerous, it is also pretty much fully anecdotal from the research i have done whether fasting is of benefit or not, but that is another topic.



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 02:07PM by powerlifer.

from the link above:

"Doug was often sarcastic and brusque with certain fasters. Lenny acknowledged this behavior in him and shared that one of her roles was to buffer the intensity of his moods."

Sorry for the following negative opinion. Hopefully I am wrong. I've noticed on videos that long time 80/10/10 "users" end with a superficial and "insect" like mentality (no insult intended), as if they lacked the capability of doubting. They respond instantly and show something like a lack of inner thoughts, as if a lobotomy of some type had been performed. Could this be related to low fats in their diets? Don't know. But I believe that an unconscious transformation of the brain took place because of their diet. Yes they may be in good physical health, but how about mental health? Nobody has worried about measuring that. All focus has been place in the physical responses.

I totally agree with this!

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> from the link above:
>
> "Doug was often sarcastic and brusque with certain
> fasters. Lenny acknowledged this behavior in him
> and shared that one of her roles was to buffer the
> intensity of his moods."
>
> Sorry for the following negative opinion.
> Hopefully I am wrong. I've noticed on videos that
> long time 80/10/10 "users" end with a superficial
> and "insect" like mentality (no insult intended),
> as if they lacked the capability of doubting. They
> respond instantly and show something like a lack
> of inner thoughts, as if a lobotomy of some type
> had been performed. Could this be related to low
> fats in their diets? Don't know. But I believe
> that an unconscious transformation of the brain
> took place because of their diet. Yes they may be
> in good physical health, but how about mental
> health? Nobody has worried about measuring that.
> All focus has been place in the physical
> responses.

To anyone who has read chapter 9 and 10 of Joel Fuhrman's book on fasting, checking potassium levels is critical. Problem is how do you get a doctor who is inexperienced to give you a test for a procedure (fasting) he doesn't want to you to do? You don't. You order own without a doctors order assuming you are willing to assume the risk of water fasting (knowing there are risks without water fasting, risks can be managed but not eliminated) [www.directlabs.com] So, a serum potassium test is $29 and you are looking to see if you value is greater than 3.2. According to Joel if it is, you are good to go. If it is less, time to break your fast.

Joel's book is one great resource for those interested in water fasting. Dr. Klaper's is another For doing a water fast under a physician's care True North in Santa Rosa is your best choice. Klaper is there as are Goldhamer and Lisle (authors of the Pleasure Trap).

Duke, "30bananasadaysucks"? mixed messages. If you want to stop trolling, get off 80-10-10. or have a ratio of 20 non- 8-1-1 posts to a 8-1-1 post. You can contribute without Harley-bashing or Doug-bashing. But your latest post doesn't help your cause, nor does pointing out to me that I have been an 80-10-10 critic in the past. btw, you can proceed as you see fit. Don't be a paleo-troll. We are on a vegan forum, let's respect the many people here that follow 8-1-1 without trying to trash it. I appreciated your candor that you post CK's paleoforum. Now, try to post without trashing either 80-10-10 or a low fat raw vegan diet that is fruit based. Don't like it, don't eat it. That's my view. I eat fruit but not 80-10-10. That said, many here do. I have learned to each their own, perhaps you can too.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 03:35PM by pborst.

Does someone pointing out that Graham and his Aussie acolytes are low IQ, arrogant shysters automatically make them a "paleo troll?" They're creeps. I don't care what they eat.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To anyone who has read chapter 9 and 10 of Joel
> Fuhrman's book on fasting, checking potassium
> levels is critical. Problem is how do you get a
> doctor who is inexperienced to give you a test for
> a procedure (fasting) he doesn't want to you to
> do? You don't. You order own without a doctors
> order assuming you are willing to assume the risk
> of water fasting (knowing there are risks without
> water fasting, risks can be managed but not
> eliminated)
> [www.directlabs.com]
> guage/en-US/Default.aspx So, a serum potassium
> test is $29 and you are looking to see if you
> value is greater than 3.2. According to Joel if
> it is, you are good to go. If it is less, time to
> break your fast.
>
> Joel's book is one great resource for those
> interested in water fasting. Dr. Klaper's is
> another For doing a water fast under a
> physician's care True North in Santa Rosa is your
> best choice. Klaper is there as are Goldhamer and
> Lisle (authors of the Pleasure Trap).
>
> Duke, "30bananasadaysucks"? mixed messages. If
> you want to stop trolling, get off 80-10-10. or
> have a ratio of 20 non- 8-1-1 posts to a 8-1-1
> post. You can contribute without Harley-bashing
> or Doug-bashing. But your latest post doesn't
> help your cause, nor does pointing out to me that
> I have been an 80-10-10 critic in the past. btw,
> you can proceed as you see fit. Don't be a
> paleo-troll. We are on a vegan forum, let's
> respect the many people here that follow 8-1-1
> without trying to trash it. I appreciated your
> candor that you post CK's paleoforum. Now, try to
> post without trashing either 80-10-10 or a low fat
> raw vegan diet that is fruit based. Don't like
> it, don't eat it. That's my view. I eat fruit
> but not 80-10-10. That said, many here do. I
> have learned to each their own, perhaps you can
> too.
>
> Paul

Incidentally, the risks of water fasting are fairly low in general if the duration is 3 to 5 days or less. Longer fasts are recommended by Joel Fuhrman under a doctor's care. Problem is where are the doctors??? There are almost no MDs outside of True North. If you want to go with an DO or a DC, IAHP has some experienced professionals. I wouldn't trust a DC or a ND personally for this. I just don't think the training is rigorous enough to understand the kind of complications Joel mentions in Chapters 9 and 10. A DO, I would. I have tremendous respect for Osteopathy. Joel has a DO, Jeff Benson working for him. Working through Dr. Fuhrman is an alternative through phone consultations. But I'm personally comfortable going it alone having read it, ordered my own test. I water fasted for 12 days working up to it one day at a time (each fast I added a day). I cured my hypertension with water fasting. I truly believe it as a modality. But as with anything, you do need to know what you are doing. And do it safely.

Paul

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does someone pointing out that Graham and his
> Aussie acolytes are low IQ, arrogant shysters
> automatically make them a "paleo troll?" They're
> creeps. I don't care what they eat.

HH,

You are someone I have tremendous respect for. I like your independent voice and value your perspective. I'm not sure what prompted your last post. But in contrast to most of your posts, I don't like it.

btw, even if I agreed with your characterization, it does not validate one way or the other the merits or risks of a low fat fruit based raw food diet.

When Harley was Wolfe-bashing here, I didn't like it. I don't like Doug/Harley-bashing anymore. It just diverts our energy from our common goal of getting healthier, experiencing more energy, building community.


Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 03:56PM by pborst.

HeavenHands,

THere is a pattern to Duke's posts that is very troll like. First of all, he offers the non-vegan perspective on things, like his views on the recent honey posts. The purpose of this seems to be to spark up debate, where he is taking the anti-vegan position.

This is not a debate forum, and the issue of veganism is definitely not up for debate. If this is not acceptable for some members, I suggest they find another forum to play at.

The focus of this forum is to support people on their raw and vegan journey. We don't require people here to be vegan, nor are we interested in preaching to them, to convert them away from their non-veganism. That being said, we don't like to receive the preachy non-vegan viewpoint either, and this is not encouraged, and if it continues, we ask these folks to leave. This happened with cherimoya_kid recently, he was asked to desist, he refused, and we let him go.

If Duke continues with his pattern, I will also let him go.

Duke, consider this your first and only warning. Veganism is not up for debate.

Paul,

The name of the website is 30bananasadaysucks, i didnt make this up, i copied the link and when i posted it, the title came out like this on your forums. I didnt make this up, all i did was read what i read, copy and paste the link here. Period. I can see how you thought that i was bashing 30 bananas, but i am not, nor i am bashing 80/10/10. Why would i? That's not my style, who said i am better?

Duke Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Paul,
>
> The name of the website is 30bananasadaysucks, i
> didnt make this up, i copied the link and when i
> posted it, the title came out like this on your
> forums. I didnt make this up, all i did was read
> what i read, copy and paste the link here. Period.
> I can see how you thought that i was bashing 30
> bananas, but i am not, nor i am bashing 80/10/10.
> Why would i? That's not my style, who said i am
> better?

I do not believe you. Don't insult my intelligence.

Paul

I don't trash 811, if it works for you, great. However, I will never shut my gob about what complete losers people like Graham and the 811 Manson family have turned out to be. They get what they give and it's only going to get worse as more and more people wake up to their completely unhealthy, dishonest, greedy, angry, bullying mentality. If it's okay with you that they habitually lie about people and nutrition in order to build their pathetic little business, that's your choice. Why you feel the need to try and force me to make it my choice I have no clue. I've worked hard to attain a certain level of intelligence and wisdom. Don't get pissed at me just because I was smart enough to see through their BS early in the game. If they and their people want respect, they need to learn how to give it. Until then, it's Jets vs. Sharks as far as I'm concerned.


pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does someone pointing out that Graham and his
> > Aussie acolytes are low IQ, arrogant shysters
> > automatically make them a "paleo troll?"
> They're
> > creeps. I don't care what they eat.
>
> HH,
>
> You are someone I have tremendous respect for. I
> like your independent voice and value your
> perspective. I'm not sure what prompted your last
> post. But in contrast to most of your posts, I
> don't like it.
>
> Paul

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duke Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Paul,
> >
> > The name of the website is 30bananasadaysucks,
> i
> > didnt make this up, i copied the link and when
> i
> > posted it, the title came out like this on your
> > forums. I didnt make this up, all i did was
> read
> > what i read, copy and paste the link here.
> Period.
> > I can see how you thought that i was bashing 30
> > bananas, but i am not, nor i am bashing
> 80/10/10.
> > Why would i? That's not my style, who said i am
> > better?
>
> I do not believe you. Don't insult my
> intelligence.
>
> Paul


Try it yourself if you dont believe me. I promise you that. Open the link, read what name of the page is, and copy paste the addess and see for yourself.

I didnt even pay attention to this detail but apparently you and Prana are on my throat. I told you i am not trying to troll anyone, didnt i tell you that i want to be part of your community?

I wasnt even insulting your intelligence yet you have been harshly unfair to me.
I dont even want you to appologize to me, just get off my back and let me post like nomral people do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 04:24PM by Duke.

Duke, if you want to be part of this community, you will revisit the forum rules and abide by them. If you are unable to abide by them, we will be happy to accept your position on the issue and we will act accordingly.

Understood.

I didn't know that anti-honey is the "vegan position." Last I checked, the debate is on-going. Why else would a non-vegan come onto a vegan site and state her anti-honey views? Let's face it Prana, this world is upside down. Maybe it's time for you to re-establish what this board is supposed to be about and enforce it with zero exceptions. Personally, I would switch the focus from raw veganism to whole foods/alt health with a raw vegan sub-forum. That's pretty much where your audience is at right now. The effort they expend to tip-toe around their non-veganness is causing a lot of unnecessary tension.

Just my dos pesos.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands,
>
> THere is a pattern to Duke's posts that is very
> troll like. First of all, he offers the non-vegan
> perspective on things, like his views on the
> recent honey posts. The purpose of this seems to
> be to spark up debate, where he is taking the
> anti-vegan position.
>
> This is not a debate forum, and the issue of
> veganism is definitely not up for debate. If this
> is not acceptable for some members, I suggest they
> find another forum to play at.
>
> The focus of this forum is to support people on
> their raw and vegan journey. We don't require
> people here to be vegan, nor are we interested in
> preaching to them, to convert them away from their
> non-veganism. That being said, we don't like to
> receive the preachy non-vegan viewpoint either,
> and this is not encouraged, and if it continues,
> we ask these folks to leave. This happened with
> cherimoya_kid recently, he was asked to desist, he
> refused, and we let him go.
>
> If Duke continues with his pattern, I will also
> let him go.
>
> Duke, consider this your first and only warning.
> Veganism is not up for debate.

what about anti-milk, anti-beef, anti-egg...etc.??? Honey is an animal product and vegans don't eat animal products the last time I checked.

Yeah you've heard the Abraham Lincoln story before but just one more time for the records. Lincoln once asked someone if you called a dog's tail a leg how many legs would a dog have? And the man answered 5. And Lincoln replied, nope, calling a dog's tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

And so it goes. Watered down definitions are exactly that... watered down. Lots of forums to visit. I come here because I know it is raw food and vegan supporting.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2012 07:09PM by pborst.

Ha! Good one Paul! I'm going to have to tell that one to my kid, he'll get a big laugh out of it.

I hope you guys feel better. You really got me with that one (NOT). What I disrespect about this board is the inconsistency and playing of favorites. As long as your part of the inner circle, it's a-ok to admit to eating eggs and even meat. If you're not a part of the inner circle, wham! Nice compassion, folks. I wouldn't mind you coming at me like that if you were only consistent and fair, "friend." Pardon me for trying to give an insider's spin on beekeeping. What a great place this is. maybe you bullies will someday succeed in finally sending some poor son of a bitch over the edge, if you haven't already.

You don't abide by your own rules. You make endless exceptions for your friends.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Duke, if you want to be part of this community,
> you will revisit the forum rules and abide by
> them. If you are unable to abide by them, we will
> be happy to accept your position on the issue and
> we will act accordingly.

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope you guys feel better. You really got me
> with that one (NOT).

Yeah, I feel better. Guy comes on here in November blaming every regular on here for somebody trolling on his site. Guy continues to troll attacking anyone who follows that diet. Guy gets the boot. Son of guy come in pretends to be accomodating uses mislabeling to launch continued attack on lfrv diets. When you come into someone else's community and troll, it's not about favorites. It's about respecting terms of service, the same ones you and I agreed to when we came here.

What I disrespect about this
> board is the inconsistency and playing of
> favorites. As long as your part of the inner
> circle, it's a-ok to admit to eating eggs and even
> meat. If you're not a part of the inner circle,
> wham! Nice compassion, folks. I wouldn't mind you
> coming at me like that if you were only consistent
> and fair, "friend."

Nobody said you had to be vegan to come here, just not attack vegans, veganism or vegan diets. There are plenty of paleo boards. And I wouldn't condone a vegan trolling there either.


Pardon me for trying to give
> an insider's spin on beekeeping. What a great
> place this is. maybe you bullies will someday
> succeed in finally sending some poor son of a
> bitch over the edge, if you haven't already.

Defending TOS and keeping order is just that, not bullying. But then you know that.

Why don't you ask Prana to compare IPs? I've never gone multi-faced on screen-names, and as far as I can see, I'm far more raw than anyone here outside of Rab and Prana. You know where I live. My IP will confirm that, and if it doesn't, it will come up as the mid-sized and well known city that's an hour and a half north of me. But seriously, I have much better things to do than play those games.

If you question where I'm at with my diet, feel free to send me a request for my pic at my e-mail address. I'll gladly show you my 6'1" 157 lb. 44 year old bod that's clearly built by one hell of a healthy diet...whatever it may be (ooooh, the mystery). However, you have to show me yours too. As long as we're throwing these accusations around, let's let the truth speak the truth. Fair enough?

That's fine except that my reference above was to CK and Duke, not you. Chill.

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why don't you ask Prana to compare IPs? I've never
> gone multi-faced on screen-names, and as far as I
> can see, I'm far more raw than anyone here outside
> of Rab and Prana. You know where I live. My IP
> will confirm that, and if it doesn't, it will come
> up as the mid-sized and well known city that's an
> hour and a half north of me. But seriously, I have
> much better things to do than play those games.
>
> If you question where I'm at with my diet, feel
> free to send me a request for my pic at my e-mail
> address. I'll gladly show you my 6'1" 157 lb. 44
> year old bod that's clearly built by one hell of a
> healthy diet...whatever it may be (ooooh, the
> mystery). However, you have to show me yours too.
> As long as we're throwing these accusations
> around, let's let the truth speak the truth. Fair
> enough?

I really don't like all this contention. This site was never like this, as everyone was respectful and willing to see another's perspective. And if they didn't agree, then it was a case of agreeing to disagree. This forum was informative and friendly, but now there's a different tone to it and I for one don't like it.

Agree, geo. I'd like to get back to having a discussion without people taking personal umbrage at stuff posted generally for all, and without people feeling the need to mock or slander anyone, guru or board member, to make a point. We all have different perspectives and journeys to take, and these Forums should be a haven for us.

Please, people!

It goes back and forth, there are nice stretches of reasonable discussion and occasionally one or more new or old members gets a bee in the bonnet and sets off an avalanche of disagreement. This is EXACTLY why we don't talk politics here, lol, can you imagine?

Well thank God we don't Coco lol

we can learn to disagree without being disagreeable. But I think expectations have to be realistic. Coco, you and I are friends and we recently had a disagreement about canola oil. And, we resolved our difference amicably without namecalling personal comments and frankly some nice pms.

I make a distinction between an honest disagreement among friends (which can get heated but also can get soothed) and personal attack or an attack on veganism which is unwarranted and unjustified.

Example, BW recently shared with me that she thought I thought she was being disrespectful to me. I heard her, told her how I felt , promised to be more tactful, mindful in our future discourse and learned from her feelings about our disagreements (actually she and I agree more often than we disagree, honey is the exception rather than the rule).

But neither BW or Coco has attacked veganism perse, made pointless personal accusations, etc. They and I feel passionately and strongly about our points of view. For me, it's the way I'm wired. I wish I had Tamara or Bryan's equanimity. But I am who I am. And I accept that. If I feel I've made a mistake, I will apologize for it. I'm still learning to disagree without being disagreeable.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2012 05:02PM by pborst.