I was reading this interview by Doug Graham and I came across this interesting quote:
[www.naturalnews.com]

"It's rather simple but as everyone knows, oil is a lubricant, oil coats things and if there's more fat in our bloodstream than we're designed to handle, it not only coats the blood sugar molecule, it also coats the insulin."

Is there another reference to this "coating" activity by other authors or is this a concept unique to Doug Graham? I've found references to insulin coating the surface of cells but not of oil coating insulin. Perhaps I'm not using the right search terms. Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2009 11:34PM by tropical.

Oil or excess fat in general will coat everything circulating in the blood,causing a negative effect on everything,including immune function. This "coating" is well known in the scientific community.

I wonder if excess oil/fat in the blood can can coat or even clog the insulin receptors and hinder sugar absorption ?

..I've looked for an explanation before too, tropical, and have not been able to find a reference to this "coating" idea either. Doug Graham might be talking about "free fatty acids", but I can't see how they could "coat" blood sugar or insulin, free fatty acids being tightly regulated hormonally, having very low solubility in the aqueous blood serum, and ushered around the body in chylomicrons [en.wikipedia.org] and by lipoproteins.

"In summary, Chylomicrons carry diet-derived lipids to body cells; VLDL carry lipids synthesized by the liver to body cells; LDL carry cholesterol round the body; and HDL carry cholesterol from the body back to the liver for breakdown and excretion.

"When blood sugar is low, glucagon signals the adipocytes to activate hormone sensitive lipase, and to convert triglycerides into free fatty acids. These have very low solubility in the blood, typically about 1 ìM. However, the most abundant protein in blood, serum albumin, binds free fatty acids, increasing their effective solubility to ~ 1 mM. Thus, serum albumin transports fatty acids to organs such as muscle and liver for oxidation when blood sugar is low."

[en.wikipedia.org]

..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2009 02:37PM by loeve.

.. "The levels of "free fatty acid" in the blood are limited by the number of albumin binding sites available."

[en.wikipedia.org]

Yes,this happens as well. Dr. Neal Barnard explains this in his book on reversing diabetes. He also says excess fat is in the muscle cells as well, preventing insulin function.

> Yes,this happens as well. Dr. Neal Barnard
> explains this in his book on reversing diabetes.
> He also says excess fat is in the muscle cells as
> well, preventing insulin function.

..I see in Barnard's 2006 study where fat in the muscle cell can affect insulin resistence:

"A Low-Fat Vegan Diet Improves Glycemic Control and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in a Randomized Clinical Trial in Individuals With Type 2 Diabetes"

"Conclusions...
"Insulin resistance is related to lipid accumulation within muscle cells (intramyocellular lipid), apparently due to a genetically based reduction in mitochondrial activity identifiable many years before diabetes manifests (20). This lipid accumulation may be responsive to diet."

[care.diabetesjournals.org]

How much fat is too much? 15%? 10%?

rufio

Quote

How much fat is too much? 15%? 10%?

I wonder if its the amount of fat in the diet or if its the type of fat in the diet ? Is there a difference in the way that natural un-altered fat from raw foods is used by the body or is the body well able to use altered fats ?

Or maybe its both the amount of fat and the type of fat ?

[How much fat is too much? 15%? 10%?]

They don't know. It's debatable, and it depends on what exactly you replace the fat with.

But the "experts" promote Mediterranean diets because they have good benefits and are easy to adhere to. The take home message is if you have extra fat make it monounsaturated (avocado, almond, olive) and eat your veggies.

But it seems to me the most profoundly therapeutic diets are also reduced in fat.These are the only ones that can show improvement on the gold standards: the cardiac cath test, much more revealing than plasma lipid levels.

Epidemiologically, too, the people with the lowest rates of hormonal cancers are in the lower fat category (historically, Asians in the 10-15% range, although recently this has changed due to their increased intake of saturated fats).

Plasma lipid levels are useful only as broadly predictive tools. Most of the widely given tests don't examine the subtypes of HDL and LDL, they are not all equally pathogenic.

Also: show me a person who developed type II diabetes on a high carbohydrate low fat diet which is solely composed of unprocessed or minimally processed fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds, high to very high in natural fibers, with modest use of supplements for B12 and D. I'll eat my entire straw hat collection if such a person can be produced.

Here's some interesting reading about "sticky fats".

[www.healthrecipes.com]

This has been an informative thread for me, thanks for starting it. I knew that the raw food lifestyle has positive effects for diabetics but I wasn't sure why. I now understand the mechanics much better. Participating in a discussion like this one and expanding my knowledge is why this forum is so valuable to me. I feel confident that as long as I live true to my own best health interests I will not experience many of the SAD pitfalls that are out there.

> ...I've found references to
> insulin coating the surface of cells but not of
> oil coating insulin. Perhaps I'm not using the
> right search terms. Thanks!

I'm still unable to find a searchable reference to the idea of "oil coating of insulin" in the blood. "Protein capsules" carrying lipids may occur in raised levels. Here is some standard terminology for levels of lipids in the blood:

"Hyperlipidemia, hyperlipoproteinemia or dyslipidemia is the presence of raised or abnormal levels of lipids and/or lipoproteins in the blood. Lipids (fatty molecules) are transported in a protein capsule, and the density of the lipids and type of protein determines the fate of the particle and its influence on metabolism."

[en.wikipedia.org]

..what causes "insulin coating the surface of cells"?

All the pioneers responsible for reversing serious chronic diseases,Barnard,McDougall,Pritikin,Ornish,etc. recommend 10% or less caloric fat.

Well, we can see this indirectly through blood sugar effects, and I believe some have seen it in their blood.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ..what causes "insulin coating the surface of
> cells"?

There are "insulin receptors" or places for insulin to dock, on the suface of the cells! Here is a drawing of that on a muscle cell:

[books.google.com]

Now what happens with the "bad oil/fat" in the blood is that it clogs up these receptor sites so the cells can't get insulin or glucose, and the cells starve.
[ezinearticles.com]
"Imagine each cell having, what is called, insulin receptor sites. The insulin molecule has two hands. One hand is used to grab a molecule of glucose, the other holds on to the receptor site on a cell.
When the receptor cites are clogged with fat molecules, insulin action is "restricted" or resisted, hence the term insulin resistance."

BUT not every type of oil (lipid) clogs the receptor sites, but that's another thread, that's probably a lot of other threads. I think what Doug Graham was trying to say was that; the lipids coat the receptor sites, not that they coat the insulin and glucose directly. He had a brain fart because it was a live interview, because I've never seen anything about lipids wrapping themselves around glucose and insulin. In fact, it's more like you are saying, "the lipids are transported in capsules", so how can they be coating anything when they are in a "container".

Thanks for all the great info everyone!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2009 05:26PM by tropical.

> All the pioneers responsible for reversing serious
> chronic
> diseases,Barnard,McDougall,Pritikin,Ornish,etc.
> recommend 10% or less caloric fat.

..I think the World Health Organization recommends 15% caloric fat. For the general adult population I have no argument even down to 5%, i.e. the '955 diet' discussed over at 30BaD, or up to 55% as in breast milk as long as it's from raw whole foods.... insulin resistence and blood lipid levels, I believe are part of the OP's question.

"...possible harmful effects can be predicted from adherence to very low fat diets in certain subgroups. In addition to young children, the elderly, pregnant women, and persons with eating disorders should not attempt a very low fat diet. Persons with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, elevated TG levels, and carbohydrate malabsorption illnesses should also avoid such a diet."

[circ.ahajournals.org]

..doctor's supervision might be in order for some subgroups, imo. For instance, a very low fat diet might for some be a reducing diet which might temporarily raise triglyceride levels, if I understand that mechanism correctly.

Edit:
Just saw your post, tropical. That makes sense about the receptor sites. What Dove said about the muscle cells internal issues, i.e. excess intracellular lipids or varied gene expression affecting signals sort of stuff might also come into play maybe? Will take a while to digest the articles. Thanks!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2009 05:37PM by loeve.

Yes, it's starting to make sense now and I think Dove was right. (BTW I don't post links because I expect anyone to read them,LOL it's just because if you don't someone will question where the info comes from so you HAVE to always post the source link.)

This pic was on one of your links it's awesome, it shows a chylomicron: "Chylomicrons are large lipoprotein particles that transport dietary lipids from the intestines to other locations in the body."

So the lipids are transported in these "containers". What I found interesting was the ApoA, B, C and E. Which I've encountered before in reading about lauric acid but I've never seen them displayed like this.

Chylomicron structure
ApoA, ApoB, ApoC, ApoE (apolipoproteins); T (triacylglycerol); C (cholesterol); green (phospholipids)





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2009 05:58PM by tropical.

In Doug's '80/10/10' book he is talking about insulin-receptor SITES, if that helps, BUT he also says 'the insulin itself'(!).

He says:

'When we eat too much fatty food, a thin coating of fat lines the blood-vessel walls, the cells' insulin-receptor sites, the sugar molecules, as well as the insulin itself.'

I lack the knowledge to evaluate this myself, but see that some here are disputing it, so will watch the thread with interest.

tropical Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, it's starting to make sense now and I think
> Dove was right. (BTW I don't post links because I
> expect anyone to read them,LOL it's just because
> if you don't someone will question where the info
> comes from so you HAVE to always post the source
> link.)

..I agree, the links and diagrams are helpful. Thanks, sincerely And it's so nice to see the Chylomicron (above).. I still haven't figured out how to post pics .... so, in the case where insulin "coats" a cell without affecting a desired uptake of glucose, in that case, like C. Dove's example where excess lipids are INSIDE the muscle cell, there may be other causes such as a chemical hindrance to signaling; the idea being that what's going on inside the cell can also explain lack of function, besides excess free fatty acid reactions; and that a high fat meal, imo, may not have such dramatic coating affects, particularly if using 10% of calories on average as a base point.

[en.wikipedia.org]

..this link has a cut-away diagram of a cell showing an example of a receptor site, the insulin "keyed in", the intracellular signaling pathways, a glucose transporter and the extracellular glucose.

quick notes:

fat is processed in blood and lymph, glucose is a simple molecule, fats are not.

Doug Graham interview quote:

"It's rather simple but as everyone knows, oil is a lubricant, oil coats things and if there's more fat in our bloodstream than we're designed to handle, it not only coats the blood sugar molecule, it also coats the insulin."

80/10/10 book quote (Graham):

"When we eat too much fatty food, a thin coating of fat lines the blood-vessel walls, the cells' insulin-receptor sites, the sugar molecules, as well as the insulin itself."

..Graham seems to be saying that eating a meal of "too much"/"more than we're designed to handle" oil/fat will result in oil/fat coating blood-vessel walls, molecules and cells. But we know dietary oil/fat is processed at the intestinal walls and in the lymph and then taxied around the body by chylomicrons, so this direct coating after meals cannot occur.

Free fatty acids released from adipose tissue is one way lipids can directly impact cells without a lipoprotein mediator. Excess free fatty acids have been studied as lipotoxicity [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] and associated with certain types of diabetes. Such excess free fatty acids can have negative affects including certain chemical byproducts of oxidation, but wholesale "coating" of cells and molecules does not seem to have much scientific basis.

Eating "more than we're designed to handle" or "too much fat" is unhealthy by definition. Graham seems to believe we are designed to handle no more than 10% in the long term, and is particularly worried in the 60, 70, 80% range.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 01:25PM by loeve.

..from foodnsport

"Are refined oils, like olive, canola, sunflower, safflower, coconut, etc., OK to use in dressing?
"Because they are refined from their original state, oils are no longer safe to ingest into the body. In their concentrated forms, they are pure fat and large amounts of that fat will be directly absorbed into the bloodstream, adversely affecting the blood viscosity (thickness) and the blood chemistry. However, eating some fresh olives, coconut flesh, or sunflower seeds, in moderation, is not bad for you. These whole foods assuredly contain plenty of fat but it is in a form that is combined with all the essential nutrients designed by nature to accompany that fat."

[foodnsport.com] (page 6)

Doug Graham's point about refined oils "adversely affecting the blood viscosity (thickness) and the blood chemistry", is well taken.

..from a "single high-fat meal" study:

"These results demonstrate that a single high-fat meal transiently impairs endothelial (i.e. blood vessels) function. These findings identify a potential process by which a high-fat diet may be atherogenic independent of induced changes in cholesterol."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 08:05PM by loeve.

What does Doug Graham mean by "fresh olives?" Fresh olives are toxic--that's why they're cured. Also, must we abstain from mechanically cold-pressed extra virgin oo and extra virgin coconut butter, or does he just refer to the processed versions? Sometimes all this iffing-and-butting really twists my melon . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 10:19PM by Tamukha.

loeve

Quote

"Are refined oils, like olive, canola, sunflower, safflower, coconut, etc., OK to use in dressing?

It depends on the results you want to get from eating raw foods.
There are "good" for you fats" and "bad" for you fats. [www.healthrecipes.com]

In my experience I find that by listening to my body I can eat just the right amount of fat to keep me satisfied and not be a "stick" person. All of my fats come packaged inside the fresh raw whole foods that I eat.

Tamukha,

An unripe olive is very bitter and toxic. If you let the olives ripen after they fall to the ground, they lose their bitterness and become edible. There are some peruvian olives that are sundried and unsalted that are ripe and raw and not cured.

If you need these oils to remain raw, then by all mean use them. But if you can substitute fats from whole foods (say like nuts or seeds), all the better.

Coconut oil ought to be avoided, as it has a high percentage of saturated fats, that will lead to arterial disease, in spite of the propaganda from the coconut industry that says otherwise. Again, if this helps you stay raw, then by all means indulge. But if you can use avocados or whole coconuts or nuts and seeds instead, that would be a healthier choice.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also, must we abstain from mechanically
> cold-pressed extra virgin oo and extra virgin
> coconut butter, or does he just refer to the
> processed versions? Sometimes all this
> iffing-and-butting really twists my melon . . .

..Doug Graham seems to be associating the eating of oils with the "coating" of blood vessels. He is trying to put things in words people will understand.

If one looks at the progression of atherosclerosis there is a lipid component, the intracellular accumulation of excess lipids that accumulates over the decades [en.wikipedia.org] , presumably from over-eating. By the way, IMO raw fooders trend more towards under to moderate eating, and with good lipid levels over time, with % caloric fat in the 30-40% range from the few studies I've seen.

The question to me is how much dietary oil is 'too much'. The Meditarranian diet (up to 40% fat) works well with olive oil as long as people get exercise. A Kerala, India study (with coconut products) suggests 'visible oil' should be limited to <20grams/day.

So it seems to me Graham was responding partly to the SAD habit of drowning veggie salads in oils, and to help people keep within the 80/10/10 guidelines which means eating very little if any visible oil or fat.

Thanks, loeve!

.. so if Doug Graham is also talking about a possibe long term accumulation of lipids in the blood vessel walls, which might hinder insulin and blood sugar from reaching targeted tissue cells, as for instance might be the case with those with atherosclerosis, then a reduction in such arterial wall deposits would seem to me to be of help.

"Although it is currently not known if long-term calorie restriction with adequate nutrition extends maximal lifespan in humans, we do know that ... calorie restriction with adequate nutrition protects against obesity, type 2 diabetes, hypertension and atherosclerosis..."

[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Re olives, I've been sampling lately some raw, uncured olives from Greece.

They are amazing! They're vaguely similar to the Peruvian uncured, but sweeter and IMO much better.

They're not on sale though (yet).