thanks for that article Ariel it echos a few things that were rolling around in my mind about the original article

I agree with Jan too , i have alot of admiration for all you parents out there that are just trying to do the right thing by your families its quite a job im sure, i find it hard enough figuring out whats right for me nevermind having little ones to worry about !

and thanks Tropical for pointing excessive vitamin use out too ! this was brought up by a teacher of mine in college about over-supplementing. the subject (holly) also admitted in her blog [web.archive.org] about taking daily doses of Ayahuasca and i cant help but wonder if somehow its chemical makeup somehow inhibited her abilities to thrive on a raw vegan food diet. here she writes a sample of what she and her family eat daily [web.archive.org] .. please note that she says this is a "what WE eat .. not a what "I" eat blog entry so i am assuming her family eats as she does.

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2009 06:32PM by Jgunn.

flipperjan

Quote

From all that i have read during my short relationship with the raw vegan diet (18months) it is quite easy to not succeed.

I agree and of that small percentage who successfully become and stay raw vegan food eaters their results are a reflection of genetics, condition of the body pre-raw, and how they practice raw. There are a lot of ways to do raw. I have found the best results come from eating plenty of fresh raw fruits and veggies with a lot of greens in the diet. Also drinking plenty of clean water helps. The greens provide plenty of minerals that mineralize the teeth and the entire body. IMO, this thread is about cause and effect.

I know when I started raw and I was adding my food to Fitday, while I ate a lot of fruits and vegetables, the sprouts really upped my nutritional intake, esp. for zinc (which is also nice because it's a lower-fat way to get zinc, as opposed to seeds, etc.); I can't see doing raw without sprouts. I love them!

I see some raw foodists doing juices and green smoothies, awesome salads, but also eating what I would call "junk" every day, and not including sprouts.....I do my best to get my nutrition (and hydration) before I think about the treats.....and I also think that someone can look well on a medium-to-high-fat diet, but their organs might be covered in too much fat.

I am always seeing people here attacking and argueing over opinions, ideas, beliefs, in defense or hopes to change or possibly hopefully manipulate or sway another person into there way of thinking.

Its not going to happen believe me..

Everyone has a right to voice their own opinion or belief, if he calls yours stupid or not, there is no reason to get upset over it..

Were all friends here, we should be positive and take this for what it is. There will never be any proof or closure from conflict..

Just saying, lets leave our different opinions behind, and if we can learn from each other then learn, if not just say thank you, keep an open mind and continue living with EACH other on this forum.. that way this forum wont fall like rome or greece.


I dont think there is any Right or Wrong in health. As we all know, everyone is different, our bodies, our "dna" or biological makeup, our needs, nutrional requirments etc. etc.

I believe in eating for health, what feels right to You, what shows improvement on your body, when there is a consistancy of health, vibrance, energy, mental clarity, emotional stability. etc. etc. regardless of vegan, raw, veggie, etc. etc. some days one may need fish in the winter, or maybe one day requires some cooked millet. What is wrong with them filling those needs? I understand murder of an animal is wrong, but its not your place to condemn that person for it. Just as you may say its not his place to condemn the fish to death.. ya know?

We all experience differently, lets just accept that, no?

Don't know who you're talking to and didn't see anyone condemned.

Im speaking to everyone. On the first page of this thread seemed to me some tense disagreement.

Forget about that one word, If you dont understand the point of what I posted, then I guess doesnt apply to you.


Anyways have a beautiful day!

You, too!! I usually think our convos here are civil, and I haven't seen anyone be mean or try to change anyone.....we encourage people to do what *they* want.

pakd4fun Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Women can be intelligent and make good choices for
> their children even if, sometimes even because,
> they haven't spent the time or money to get a
> formal education.

Certainly. But to be politically correct you can't say IQ specifically, you have to couch it in other ways.

In regards to the post about kids and education level: Career-minded women are more likely to view children as a nuisance. Why shouldn't they since careers and children are not very compatible. Women who want children and want to be the primary influence in that child's life (instead of delegating it to television, babysitters, day care, etc), would be less likely to invest a lot of time away from them.

If you don't have lots of kids, there are plenty of people having kids and passing their values on to them, who believe very differently from you and they will quickly outnumber the "educated" folk (I am saying "you" collectively, and not in a personal way).


Also, raw foodists should know better than others how good an "education" really is...its all biased anyway, and universities are mostly beholden to special interest groups and funding by people and groups who want a say in what is being taught (not to mention the personal biases of the professors themselves!). Doctors tell you you need meat, dairy, etc to be healthy and no vegan can be truly healthy, and how long did they go to school for??

For those who think their education has taught them the truth about "overpopulation" and so they think they are doing a responsible thing by limiting the number of children they bring into the world --you've been duped again! I was!
[www.geocities.com]
Google "overpopulation myth" and see what I mean.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 12:10PM by musicbebe.

I should add that I should not have characterized mothers with a few kids and careers as thinking of kids as a nuisance. Actually, its more that they made a conscious decision to limit the number of kids they have because either their career was more important to them, or they realized they couldn't have both. I'm sure those moms love their kids too. But my point was it's a matter of priorities, not IQ.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 12:20PM by musicbebe.

Thank you musicbebe. You said all the things I don't have time to right now because I have to go rear children. LOL.

Thanks for the link. I am going to check it out later.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Being politically correct sometimes changes the point and often (as in this case) makes it irrelevant.

If you choose not to have kids, I guess it might feel good to think it is because you're more intelligent or care more for the planet than those who have chosen to have them. Maybe that is an indication of a void that needs filling. Maybe being a big brother or sister is in order, or more auntie time.

I think a lot of women with careers would love to have kids and be stay at home moms, but in our culture it's almost impossible. Used to dad could work and mom could stay home, and the family could still buy a house and have 2 cars and a comfortable lifestyle. Now it's often 2 people working a 40 hour week, living in an apartment and having to watch every dollar.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Staying home with kids is hard financially, but I know a LOT of people who do it and most on a very tight budget. It really isn't near "almost impossible." I think woman's lib is going backwards when we start putting limitations on our ability to rear children. We can do anything we put our minds to. Working OR staying home. I even had a single friend who was dirt poor and homeschooled her two kids.

We buy everything second hand. I mean everything including our kitchen cabinets and even the kitchen sink. We drive our cars till they have at least 300,000 miles on them. We save money in so many ways so we can afford what we think is most important.

If it hadn't been my plan to stay home with my kids, I wouldn't have had them. My parents both worked and I know how screwed up that is, even in the best of circumstances.

>We buy everything second hand. I mean everything including our kitchen cabinets and even the kitchen sink. We drive our cars till they have at least 300,000 miles on them. We save money in so many ways so we can afford what we think is most important.<

Hi Kise!
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I buy everything I can get my hands on secondhand too. I know a lot of wives in my area who live very frugally and buy secondhand clothes and drive old cars, but they still have to work. Cambridge is the most expensive city in America, real estate-wise; so maybe it's not so bad other places. I know a lot of single moms and divorced mothers who have no choice but to work here too, if they don't want to move into a shelter.

I understand what you mean though, and I have enormous respect for women who sacrifice in order to be at home with their kids. Even though I've never had kids, (except for my adult stepkids, whom I didn't have a hand in raising) I am in a situation similar in many ways to moms: I've chosen to live an extremely simple life so I can work a lot less hours in order to be able to spend a good part of my life and a lot of quality time with Jonathan, my partner who is blind and deaf. We met when he was going blind-- he was about 90% there when I came into his life, and now he's 100%-- so as he lost the last of his vision, I was at his side, taking him everywhere. He uses a cane, but he relies heavily on me, in part because he doesn't get many audio cues to help him. I suspect it's even hard for him to hear the audio signals for the blind in our neighborhood. We are 'joined at the hip,' and friends who don't understand the situation think he's co-dependent and I am crazy for living like this. I, on the other hand, see myself as his divinely appointed seeing eye person. ;-) Back when I was a (bleached) blonde, a friend of mine used to refer to us as 'the blonde leading the blind.'

So I'm a stay-at-home wife who chooses her part-time work very carefully. I make sure my employers respect my need to work certain specified hours; I can't be expected to work 3-4 hours overtime, which would make me unavailable to Jonathan. (I try to leave my afternoons open so I can take him to the gym and other things he needs to do, and also to leave time for me to do all the things I have to get done. When your partner can't help with shopping and errands, it takes a lot of extra time.) My Arts Council job is great, because Jonathan can sit in the Square while I work and join me on breaks. And I love playing music in the subway, because he comes along with me as my roadie and electronics technician. Our income is below the poverty line, but we have a lot of fun and somehow we manage to live richly and abundantly, though we don't go to restaurants, and we don't go to movies, bars or clubs. (Except my Sunday jam session, which is free anyway.) We don't have a car; don't want one! ;-) We like to walk and take the subway... mostly we walk everywhere we can.

Long story short: I'm on your wavelength, just in a little different frequency.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Hi Kwan,

I didn't mean to give the impression I was offended even a little bit. Sorry.

I was thinking about how we (women) used to put limitations on ourselves about joining the "men's" workforce not that long ago. I guess, for some, the pendulum is swinging too far the other way now. I think we need to remember that we should not put limitations on women in either direction.

It is true we live in an area where things are cheaper. A few years ago I read 30% of the children in Louisiana live in poverty. Our land was so cheap, $15,000 for 7 acres 11 years ago (we moved here from Houston). Most of the people I associate with are homeschoolers who all tend to be pinching pennies. They all seem as if they feel lucky to be able to live the way they do and the kids are so mature and down to Earth. The kids seem to have more respect for money and material things than any other kids I have ever known.

Your life sounds wonderful, albeit totally different from mine. I would absolutely love to visit and see all the things you describe so well, not in the winter though.

>Your life sounds wonderful, albeit totally different from mine. I would absolutely love to visit and see all the things you describe so well, not in the winter though. <

Ditto! I'd LOVE to visit you, too, and experience firsthand how you and your family live, only I'd definitely want to visit in the wintertime and get away from our insufferable cold!

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

You are welcome to one of our futons anytime. Or, if you like, you can pitch a tent, like a lot of people do.

pakd4fun--
What a wonderful invitation!-- we might just take you up on it next winter. Are you close to New Orleans? (I ask because there are lots of street performance opportunities there, though I don't know what the permitting procedures are like these days.)

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

We are about 3 1/2 hours from New Orleans.

You have to go to New Orleans.

There are so many street performers.


Let's go for a couple days when you come!! Maybe we can get Khale to go with us. Remember her?

I also am trying to raise my children 50% raw and about 90% vegan but I have to admit it's and endless cause of anxiety for me. I am always in the lookout for signs that they are not thriving and we take vit D supplements and eat organic eggs but i worry about our protein and iron intake. We both drink rice milk which is calcium-fortified so that's not a concern. But it is very difficult to convince a 2-year old to eat green veggies in sufficient amount to cover his iron-intake and I am breast-feeding (a second children who is 4-months old) and I am worried about anemia myself (I don't always have the time or the inclination to eat a sufficiently high amount of green veg to cover iron needs and would not like to supplement iron). We do eat *some* fish (sorry, I know this is a vegan forum so I apologize) which should cover some of our protein needs, I hope.

I have been told before in this forum that I am "thinking too much about it" and to "listen to my body" but it so happens that I can not "listen to my child's body" so well although I can certainly see the signs before Holly did I think. Well I am on the lookout for them anyway. I am also worried that I might do some permanent damage to their little bodies and realize about it too late. So we're trying to strike a sensible balance to cover most of our basis, but it is difficult sometimes to find the right balance, and as I said before, it is definitely a cause of anxiety for me!

Incidentally, I was going to post somewhere else that I am really exhausted these days, I am working very hard alright but i am also wondering if there is any defficiency in my diet as well, that's why it occured to me that I might be anaemic.

I have great luck with my kids and green smoothies. Their fav is spinach and bananas. They are really delish. Try naming them something cool like, emerald princess smoothie.

More fruit consumption helps me to have more energy.

i think it is important to note every aspect of your children's health all the time. Little things in their environment, not just diet, can affect them more than you might realize. I think it is important to stay tuned in to them holistically. At the same time, I think it is also important to keep a relaxed attitude about their diet. Sometimes it can become a source of stress and you want to keep them relaxed and secure about their food. If they don't want to try something you could say "ok, but you are missing out. MMMM it is sooo yummy." Eventually they will be begging for healthy food. I can put out a bowl of raw spinach and my kids will just start grabbing leaves and eating them without even thinking about it. It really is our nature to eat that way, so it is hard for them to resist.

karmele,

Can you afford to have yourself and your children tested periodically? If you could, you might feel more confident.

Also, you might consider visiting a licensed nutritionist who could give you some tips on whatever might be lacking, and what vegan/vegetarian foods might help you correct any possible deficiencies.

And if you haven't done so already, you could visit a nutrition site online. My favorite is [www.nutritiondata.com]. Click "track" to enter daily food intake, click "save and analyze" and you can see how close you are to 100% of the Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA) for each nutrient.

The RDAs will be different for each member of your family, depending on gender, age, and level of exercise. The website will calculate that for you. Just click BMI (Body Mass Index) to enter info for each family member and learn their individual RDA for important nutrients like protein, iron, and calcium.

If you or your children are lacking anything, you can also search to find foods that are high in the nutrients you lack. (Go to "tools", click "nutrient search tool"

It's not usually necessary to get 100% of each nutrient, since the values are maximized for "safety". A good nutritionist can help you determine if you and your children are getting enough.

If you take any of the above steps, you're doing more than most, and this should help you feel more confident.

Pakd4fun, just read your tips. Those are great!

I would definitely look into healthier protein sources, even if they are cooked, like legumes or sprouted legumes; omega-rich seeds; nuts; fruits; and vegetables.

But it's up to you to decide what your children are going to eat since you're responsible for their care. If it's 90% plant-based, that's a great start!

Hi everyone

We can't do sprouts, we lack the time and my ds doesn't like them. We do eat cooked legumes. We eat seeds alright but the fish is a source of protein as well as omega-3, can't really take the risk w the omega-3. He's too young for nuts and fruits and veggies are very much the staple of our diets... although as all 2-year all children he can be very much a faddy eater.

Nutrition sites don't quite work for him, they do so for me alright, well when I'm not breastfeeding anyway. But for him, he wants to eat something today but tomorrow he's gone off it. And I simply don't have the time to enter into a site what he eats every single day. A sample day... there's no sample really with a 2-year old.

We know and use superfoods: goji berries, other berries, seeds, hemp, flax, etc, in so much as he will b in the mood for it that day, but I try to disguise them in his food. I have tried to go to a couple of certified nutritionists... they tell me more or less what I already know, use of superfoods etc, try to maximize intake of fruit and veg but again we go back to the same thing, a 2 year old gulps something down today and can't stand the sight of it tomorrow. But in any case all these nutritionists agreed that I will never b able to put enough greens and fruits into a 2-year old that eats them "under coercion" and not by choice to cover his needs of protein/calcium/iron/omega 3s

As for testing them periodically... I try... but it is hard from the money point of view... I'm in Ireland and I pay 3.50 euros for a pound of spinach... and 2.70 for a litre of rice milk... as it is this diet thing is INCREDIBLY expensive for us already! But I know we are investing in our health.

Packdforfun and everyone, thanks for those tips. I agree that you would not want to get too obssesed!

>We are about 3 1/2 hours from New Orleans.
You have to go to New Orleans.
There are so many street performers.
Let's go for a couple days when you come!! Maybe we can get Khale to go with us. Remember her?<

Oh, that would be THE BEST vacation! In fact, that's how a lot of my street performer friends do vacations: they go to New Orleans, L.A., San Fran or Seattle to busk during the winter.
Yes, I remember Khale by name. Is she a musician too?

Hi karmele,

Guess I'd forgotten about how it is with 2-yr.olds.

Still, the advice from Pakd4fun is good.

Maybe you could put a whole lot of good stuff in smoothies that your 2 yr. old likes. Plus, you could have nutritious finger foods available.

You wouldn't have to spend a whole lot of time on a nutrition website. Just enough time to find out which foods are highest in iron, calcium, or other nutrients that you're especially concerned about. Pick the foods that your yunguns might like the best, and have them available - all the time if need be.

And try having finger foods that maybe you wouldn't imagine your kids might like (raw or cooked) - string beans, cauliflower, etc.

This is doable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2009 01:18AM by suncloud.

Hi Karmele

I am in England and i totally sympathise with the cost thing. when i hear about people buying a box of mangos I sigh with envy. We do not even have a good greengrocer within driving distance let alone something as amazing as an Asian market etc.

Are there other Mum's you could talk to - support is so important with stuff like this?

also keep doing your research - never take one person's word for it.

Best of luck - keep in touch
Philippa

[but the fish is a source of protein as well as omega-3, can't really take the risk w the omega-3. ]

You can risk methylmercury poisoining, though?

You can get this in supplement from algae.

You can give the kid flax, also.

Omega-3 is contained in many plant foods, such as dark green vegetables (like spinach and broccoli), walnuts, hemp seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, sesame seeds and wheat. As arigula pointed out, flax is a particularly good source.