This seems really odd to me.

My friend was on an Atkins type diet for a long time, and along with a lot of weight resistance exercise and cardio every day (an hour or two daily), she lost a ton of weight. But she was inspired by my raw-ness, and wanted to try it.

Well, it has been two months, and she phoned me this morning absolutely miserable. She has gained 17 lb, and has lost a lot of her strength in the weight room. Her cardio is great, even seems to have improved (she runs on the treadmill), but she is really angry about the weight gain, and is thinking that maybe raw is totally not working for her.

She was really afraid of bananas at first, and I assured her they would be fine to eat, and she has been eating 3-4 per day lately. She does eat a couple of handfuls of raw nuts each day. She eats from half an avocado to a couple of avocadoes per day, and a lot of food. She swears her caloric intake is high enough, and she isn't really having any problems with hunger. She still seems fearful of foods that she perceives as "high-carb", like certain fruits. She does soak and eat dried prunes and other dried stuff as well.

I wish I could assure her this is temporary, but I just cannot explain it. I am going to loan her my dehydrator, since I rarely use it, and maybe she can come up with something to help her along, but can anyone explain this? Is there anything she could try different? I think she is just going to give up and go back to Atkins.

My experience has been that as long as I eat simple all fresh truly raw vegan foods and avoid dried, gourmet, and nuts I can eat as much as I want and not gain any weight.

She is damn lucky.. as far as weight gain goes..

Ive been kind of bumming on my self image becuase of weight loss..

133 - 136lbs for me, Im still all lean muscle, but still! I want to be my 150lb self again, *sigh*

Oh well atleast I got health!

Maybe she should cut back on the avocados, try food combining, Ive done a lot of reading that improper food combining can manifest weight gain from water retention, and putrified bowels... maybe?

If she's gained 17 lbs in two months and it isn't water, that means she's been overeating by about 1000 calories a day for 60 days.

Can't blame that on raw, it's simply too much food and poor choices.

And she wants to blame that on bananas. Well, she'd have to eat 27 bananas to equal the calories in 2 cups of nuts and 4 avocados. Plus she's eating a lot of dried fruit. She's chosen the most calorie-dense, least nutritious, least healthy way.

If I were her I'd make it 1/4 cup nuts, 1/2 avocado, zero dried fruit, a head of romaine, and unlimited whole fresh fruit and nonsweet vegetables per day. Then she'll lose weight.

Not everybody loses weight on raw. Even when I'm 100% and really careful, I don't lose weight; I find I have to juice fast or water fast in order to get to my proper weight.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Thanks everyone.

The funny thing about this is that since she has gone raw, she looks so much better in so many ways. Her skin just glows, and on the other diet, she lost a lot, very skinny, but her face looked gaunt and very stressed. She seemed aged, older than her true age. Today, she may be a little bigger, but she looks wonderful and relaxed, and years younger!

I don't think she goes crazy on the dried fruits, she says that raw isn't enough to keep her "regular", so she soaks some prunes to assist with that, and I think she does eat some dates as well. Other than that, I don't think she eats dried fruits excessively. It's unbelievable to me that a raw diet wouldn't keep anyone "regular"!

There is something really weird about that whole low carb diet, because she has told me in the past that she can gain 5 lb or more overnight just by eating something high-carb, even if there are very few calories. I gave her some flax crackers once, and she said she gained 7 lb overnight (long time ago, before she went raw). This doesn't even seem logical to me, and I think that regardless of the results, her body was under an enormous stress. She reminded me of someone who is undergoing a very serious illness and the toll shows on their face. (Despite her amazingly toned muscular body)

I think she eats much higher proportion of veggies than I do (I'm more fruit-centred), but that should bring her overall calories lower if anything. She has had some good results with raw (for instance, her chocolate cravings have disappeared), but this weight gain is driving her crazy. It doesn't help that her partner made a negative comment about her larger size over the weekend, I am sure that made her feel terrible. I am even a little suspicious that the lowest weight she attained might not have been a healthy weight for someone as muscular as her, but I wouldn't want to divulge any numbers without her permission.

It seems to me that for someone who works out very hard for two hours a day very often, it would be quite a struggle to keep your diet high enough in calories if you were limiting bananas, avocados and nuts. If anything, she should be asking me how to get more calories, not less! So I just don't understand the weight thing!

hmmm somthing smells fishy in her fruit basket i cant see someone gaining 7lbs on a few flax crackers ..and not overnight ..and not even if she ate 7lbs of them lol. i suspect your friend is not giving you the full picture

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Yes - i smell a rat too

I would assume that one wouldn't/couldn't be regular on Atkins not raw!

I used to do an Atkins-type diet as well and could sustain an hour run + weights everyday with very little carbs, in fact I had more energy (more energy than with carbs, but less energy than on raw). I think some people's bodies just don't function well on carbs. I would suggest cutting out the bananas, for starters, and eating salads, cucumbers, peppers, and zucchini. E3 Live to replace protein & micronutrients. Never combine carbs & fat. Start with vegetables and eat fruit only if she gets a craving for it.

On raw I can work out 4 hours a day in the summer and still not get below 116 pounds - I am 5'2". But that's 10 pounds less than my previous "lowest possible weight" on the Atkins-type diet (which for me always included vegetables and some fruit). In high school, however, I managed to be a skinny 98 pounds on a low-fat diet of grains, beans, tuna, vegetables, and fruit. I very strictly limited my fat intake to only 10 percent of calories. So I don't have the exact answer for her but maybe she could take some of these ideas & play around, see if she can find a healthier yet still weight-friendly alternative to a high intake of meat, which will give women a more masculine look, at least that's my unscientific observation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 09:02PM by sunshine79.

Oh well, it's not my job to convert her. I will just tell her this is working for me, and if she feels the need to add all that "protein" back into her diet, and if that works for her, then I support her fully.

I think her biggest mistake is jumping on the scale every single day. What a bad habit. She doesn't seem to notice when the numbers go down, but she suffers such angst when they go up. I have to admit, about the only time I jump on the scale is when I want to weigh the dog. He is so big, I have to weigh myself, then us together, and subtract myself. If all my clothes get too tight, I go "Oh my gosh, I am fat!!". If everything gets loose, I go "oh my gosh, I lost weight".

I don't think any of my kids know their weight either, so it seems to be working! There are much better things in this life to obsess about.

Like, when in the heck is watermelon season going to begin again, haha!!

More importantly, skinny is only one body type, it is more a body type than an attainable goal for everyone. That TV show The Biggest Loser makes me so mad, because I notice that EVERY contestant has ONE particular body type, and it's the type characterized by short limbs & tendency to gain weight in the midsection (endomorph? mesomorph? I can never remember which is which). And it is SO hard for people of that body type to lose weight but yet everyone in society makes fun of them and blames their lack of willpower when it's really a matter of genes.

I have the gymnast body type that loves exercise but if you see gymnasts after the Olympics you notice alot of them look chubbier, and it's not because they lost all their willpower, but because they stopped working out 40 hours a week which is the only way they got Olympic skinny.

Fortunately, most thick beefy men I've ever encountered (the kind I like) aren't into skinny girls anyway, so hooray for me. I love my body and never try to lose weight.

Perhaps your friend could accept & celebrate her natural, god-given shape? I suspect her previous diet was making her unhealthy-skinny for her genetic makeup, and raw maybe showed her a better place.

I wonder if this could have to do with fluid retention. On Atkins a lot of weight loss is due to the fact that glycogen is lost. Each glycogen molecule holds 4 water molecule, so as soon as glycogen reserves start filling up again, water is retained.

I was a low carber for 2 years, made my body terribly acidic. Low carb is deceiving in that it allows you to eat a whole chicken or 15 eggs without ill effects on your waist line (in the bgeinning at least!). You can binge on certain things (bacon, cream, cheese...), as long as you dont eat anything that will interrupt ketosis, you will lose. Well, any carb will disrupt ketosis, so eat a banana and keep the low carb bingeing going and it's the surest way to rapid gain... carbs plus fats----> weight gain! (low carb is logically high fat and high protein!). Take into account the abovementioned water retention and it could be possible that that's the culprit of her problems.


Low carb is highly unhealthy on the long run. I stopped from one day to the next and ate mainly fruits galore. It alkalinized my body and I dropped 20 pounds without even doing anything.

So, am thinking:
Maybe she is still eating a lot of low carb foods that are high in fats AND adding fruits (hence stopping ketosis and adding fat to her body)

Or: her alkaline/acidic balance is really out of whack and her body needs to find balance first before she can start shedding.

Maybe none of this fits for her, these are just suggestions and guesses based on my own experiences.

Either way I noticed that low carb OR raw can be deceiving for bingers as they allow almost unlimited foods of some kind without gaining, which never works in the long run and the root of the overeating is never tackled.

best of luck

Yea, sunshine I Agree. society gives people all sorts of expectations.

Growing up I NEVER cared how tiny I was. I was 115lbs when I was 16. a twig, and I never noticed in fact I probably had an attitude that I Was muscular. I had a horrible diet, lots of beer and burritos.

Now I admit, I tend to obsess over my physical appearence as far as muscles and weight goes..

And yes I think society has played an enormous role in this..
TV, magazines, music videos, everything in some way it seems now a days has to do with sex, and phsyical beauty, forgetting that health and loving and compasion is really what is important. That a beautiful inner person is more important.. its so easy to miss that..

As I said I tend to obsess, 134lb today,I miss my muscles.. and my bigger frame. Im 5'7 so I guess being bigger lets me feel more secure out in the world, escpeically around kids my age (Im 20) people are very competitive, you know as far as being tough and fighting etc. Im into different types of martial arts, jiu jitsu specifically, some mma and boxing, and now that I feel much smaller, I just feel less secure in those enviornments.. But I truely believe, and I am trying very hard to change my way of thinking, like richard blackman stated on this forum, we need to change our heros. the people we look up to have a big impact on how we strive ourselves and grow in our own world.. I use to admire wrestlers so, now I admire people like richard. or paul nison. Im still sort of jealous of the bigger guys I see who are quite muscular, especially the men on the strongest men competitions on ESPN, man those guys pull big trucks, and lift humungus boulders.. anyways..

sorry for the rant, just been thinking about this lately, and it honestly gets me down somtimes..

Hopefully my weight goes back up, but as I said, I rather have health right now, then weight and big muscles..

I think health is the most important thing a person can have.

Sapphire Wrote:
> Like, when in the heck is watermelon season going
> to begin again, haha!!

DITTOS! I was in the grocery last week and I saw that the area where the watermellon bin is usually kept was cleared out of the drinks that were there over the winter and I was like, "There's going to be watermellon there the next time I come." I was so dissapointed when I went back the next time and there was just gardening supplies there.

Herbalgerbals, I think that the "big" muscles are actually big because (among other things like steroids and stuff) they have fat deposits in the muscles, but that would be something that Richard would know more about.

Sapphire,

I am reading "80/10/10," and it seems to me your friend is top-loading fats and carbs--big No No. I am always surprised when someone will opt for an appearance standard over internal health. Once you get fit, you can move a lot and get bigger muscles. No one on their deathbed from liver cancer or heart failure says, "gee I wish I'd spent more time on my abs."


herbalgerbals,

"Im still sort of jealous of the bigger guys I see who are quite muscular, especially the men on the strongest men competitions on ESPN, man those guys pull big trucks, and lift humungus boulders.. anyways.. "

Ha-ha! Those aren't men--those are bull mastiffs! You have a good brain, and a good heart, and your priorities are straight, judging by your aspiration for good health. You are a man, not a dray dog. Chin up, and be proud!

>EVERY contestant has ONE particular body type, and it's the type characterized by short limbs & tendency to gain weight in the midsection (endomorph? mesomorph? I can never remember which is which).<

So true. Even among raw foodists, there are, at one end of the spectrum, endormorphs like me who lose weight slowly and have less muscle tone (think Kelly Osbourne), and mesomorphs at the other end (think Farrah Fawcett), who lose weight in a snap and develop muscle tone very easily. Perhaps the ones who have the hardest time on the raw diet-- especially if they're guys-- are the ectomorphs who are already naturally skinny. Raw is best for me, and I'm a healthy size 10/12, so I can't complain.

Sapphire--
One other thought occurs to me: ask her if she had her appendix out. Seriously, Harvey and Marily Diamond (Fit for Life) found in working with hundreds of clients that those who had had an appendix removed had a tendency to retain weight, and they recommended a low carb/low calorie type of raw vegan diet, heavy on greens and low on sweet fruit. I was really bummed out when I read that, because I had my appendix out, and I'm definitely not willing to give up fruit.

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Make that three of us who smell something funny. I suspect, too, that she may be cheating.

And yes, I noticed that she is trying to do a raw Atkins thing. Well if she were truly eating as she says she could not blame this gain on those deadly carbohydrates since she is getting at least 2/3 of her calories from fat.

I think that very high fat concentrated calorie raw plus double bacon cheeseburger and french fries and ice cream is more like it.

Some people think that fruit is bad for them. Well, fine. If it takes that much effort to convince them otherwise maybe it isn't worth the effort.

I prefer the people who know that eating lots of raw f+v is very healthy, acknowledging that f+v includes sweet fruit.

In my humble experience...bananas cause ones system to slow down and can even produce constipation. It would seem only logical then that food staying in one's digestive track would increase what gets aborbed (for better or for worse).

The other thing is that fruits are high in sugar content and since many overweight people have a tendency to have issues with insulin (whether or not it rates high/low enough to attrack medical attention)...the body naturally releases insulin which then converts that blood sugar to fat. Maybe if she tried veggies rather than fruits for her juicing.

Additionally, nuts and advacados are way high in fat and have loads of calories. One small bag of trail mix has as many calories as like five big bags of potato chips. Agruments for or against vegan/vegitarian diets, she may do far better eating meats rather than nuts calorie wise.

Weight loss is a hard topic...but the good news is that there are many veggies that burn more calories to break them down than they have...such as brocolli and celery (no doubt you can find lists online).

Good luck

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Some people think that fruit is bad for them.
> Well, fine. If it takes that much effort to
> convince them otherwise maybe it isn't worth the
> effort.
>
> I prefer the people who know that eating lots of
> raw f+v is very healthy, acknowledging that f+v
> includes sweet fruit.


By what authority do you make these statements?? You are acting like you know what's best for everyone. Have you conducted a research study with various body types to determine whether sweet fruit is, indeed, THE best for food everyone? No, I don't believe you have.

This is YOUR opinion and conjecture and nobody has ever proved that sweet fruit is the best food for everyone.

Here is my opinion: Sweet fruit probably works best on ectormorph body types.

Here's a link on body types:

[www.muscleandstrength.com]

The Endomorph's Body Transformation Survival Guide:

[www.gyminee.com]


Here's an excerpt from it:

There is only one true way to determine your maintenance calories. Are you ready? Because I’m going to tell you right now. Carry a notepad around and log everything your eat. At the end of the week add it up. If you lost weight you’re below maintenance calories, if you’re the same weight then you’re eating right around maintenance calories. Do it for a few weeks to months and you will have a pretty accurate measure of what your metabolism is really like. You might find that endomorphs have much lower maintenance calories than we’d like to believe.

Carbohydrates are your enemy! If you say this out in public be very careful… the general fitness crowd might tie you to a pole and burn your low carb ass alive. Unfortunately the general fitness crowd is not forward thinking enough to realize what’s going on under the hood of all of my endomorphic brothers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/08/2009 06:16PM by sunshine79.

Sunshine79--
Your PM box is full. ;-)

Sharrhan:


[www.facebook.com]

Kwan, I made some room!

She gave me a list of her daily food:

1 red pepper
1 apple
1 head cabbage
1 kiwi
1 banana
12 almonds
12 cashews
6 prunes, soaked
8 dried peaches, soaked
1 head romaine lettuce
raw salad dressing
1/2 cucumber
handful of shredded cabbage
2 mushrooms
1/4 sliced sweet potato
4 small tomatoes
1 apple

(Much of this was made into smoothies)

I really don't think this would provide enough calories to support someone who is doing intense exercise. I haven't tried to evaluate it in depth, but I told her I suspect she could stand to eat more fruit for the calories - but I don't think she believes me. But, I have a very busy day today, so I must get going, maybe I will have time to think about this more later. Any opinions?

I wasn't going to post numbers, but I changed my mind. She is five ft five in, and has exercised her body into the kind of shape that she could really go into body building competitions if she wanted to - very muscular. And her weight is 148. She says it should be more like 131, and her legs and butt are much larger than they were, but I think it is muscle, maybe she needs to back off the weights a little. Also, for having that much muscle, that number is maybe not all that high - muscle is very heavy. In my opinion, she looks fantastic, and I think if she wants to weigh that little, she will need to really reduce the weights. But I am no expert, maybe I am dead wrong.

Since she started working out, she has lost nearly a hundred pounds, and I suspect that is why she is so concerned with the numbers.

[By what authority do you make these statements?? ]

AJCN and maybe 100 other journals.

[You are acting like you know what's best for everyone.]

Well, I don't think anyone does better with fewer fruits and vegetables unless they are really overdoing it, like the 50+ servings a day types, but I really don't know any such case.

[Have you conducted a research study with various body types to determine whether sweet fruit is, indeed, THE best for food everyone? No, I don't believe you have.]

Explain what you mean by "body type." Please use technical terms.

[This is YOUR opinion and conjecture and nobody has ever proved that sweet fruit is the best food for everyone. ]

Neither did I, nor did I ever claim it was the *best food* for everyone. Perhaps you could reread what I wrote.

[Here is my opinion: Sweet fruit probably works best on ectormorph body types. ]

This is nonsense. What are you really attempting to convey here? That only an underweight person (which is what I suspect you are trying to convey with the term "ectomorph" will benefit from dietary fiber? From hesperidin and other phytochemicals present? From vitamins and minerals? From a food source that provides approximately 4.5 calories per gram? What are you really trying to say? That "sugar" is evil for overweight people? The real evil is too many calories, regardless of their source, but the sources that are lower in dietary fiber tend to be more highly metabolizable and thus likely to contribute to more retention of calories i.e. weight gain.

Sapphire,
"I wasn't going to post numbers, but I changed my mind. She is five ft five in, and has exercised her body into the kind of shape that she could really go into body building competitions if she wanted to - very muscular. And her weight is 148. She says it should be more like 131, and her legs and butt are much larger than they were, but I think it is muscle, maybe she needs to back off the weights a little. Also, for having that much muscle, that number is maybe not all that high - muscle is very heavy. In my opinion, she looks fantastic, and I think if she wants to weigh that little, she will need to really reduce the weights. But I am no expert, maybe I am dead wrong."


Look your friend in the eye, tell her you care about her, and then tell her she can be muscled or she can be featherweight, but she can't be both. Then give her a hug.