[www.survival.org.au]

Quote

What It Is To Be Human

The following quotes are from the book "What It Is To Be Human", by Robert Wolff. It is now out of print, but has been republished as "Original Wisdom" in an edited form. That is, the publisher's in-house editors have reworded and rephrased bits of it to make it sound more "correct". Many people are not aware of it, but this happens to most books that we read nowdays.

From the chapter "The Real World, The Shadow World" (of the unedited version):

SOME PEOPLE, and they are the people we think of as primitive, live well without 'doing’ much of anything. They do not have jobs, they do not work nine to five, they certainly do not work for anyone else. They do not farm, they do not have to take care of animals. All of them, women, men and children wander around and find things to eat: fruit, roots—they know their environment intimately. Of course, because they feel part of nature. They spend their days doing what they do best. Some like making things, they make canoes, or cloth, or pots, or they carve. Some like hunting or fishing. Some people have a talent for staying in touch with another reality, they are priests, shamans, healers. Some of them have a talent for making other people feel good. I have probably learned more from these so-called primitive people than from any other.

People who live very close to the earth, or the ocean, with very few of what we think of as necessities of life, live well. Sadly, it is no exaggeration to say that as soon as we come and bring them 'civilization’, they plummet into abject poverty and ill-health.

The people I got to know—aboriginal people in Malaysia, as well as wonderfully healthy and self-sufficient aboriginal people on a few islands of the Pacific, in the mountains of the Philippines—were different from each other, of course, speaking different languages, with different customs. But they are alike in that they were happy. They were content.

These people were hard to find, because our aggressive and intense civilization has driven them to the most inaccessible parts of the world. They lived off the land or the ocean. They did not have to rely for any of their needs on the outside. They could find all the food they needed to sustain themselves, they could find or make material for shelter and clothing. They carved canoes, made blowpipes, they rolled a powerfully strong rope from the fibers of coconut husk. And beyond what they could find and make in their environment, they did not need anything, nor did they want anything more.

They enjoyed life, they lived life. Life did not live them, as happens to us.

Slightly later in the same chapter:

I learned to question my own assumptions about many things. For instance, my idea that if you do not have the use of the machines we think necessary for survival you must have to work very hard. Obviously that was a cliché that needed to be thrown out.

The Sng’oi had all the time in the world. They did not slave in gardens, they did not work to get ahead, they were not stressed because they had office hours to keep. They enjoyed living, they smiled a lot. They sang almost all the time: little tuneless tunes they sang alone, or two or more people would sing together, making up words as they went along, which almost always led to much giggling and laughter when they stumbled in this game.

I quickly threw away my idea that people who do not have the advantages we have—our many choices of education, infinite forms of entertainment—would have to work so hard that they had no time for fun. What remains most vivid in my memory of the Sng’oi is their contentment, their joy. They had the uncomplicated innocence of children, although they certainly were not childish or even innocent. They so obviously were not stressed. There was nothing they 'had to’ do. They wandered here and there. They sang, they made jokes. They laughed a lot.

Later in the book, in the chapter called "Slaves":

Most Malaysians had probably forgotten that the word they used for those strange, primitive, very shy people living in deep jungle in the mountains, meant 'slave’. They rarely thought about those jungle dwellers who wore few clothes and were rarely seen anywhere. In fact, the Sakai, The Slaves, were an almost mythical people, few people knew much about them.

After I got to know the Sng’oi, The People, and when I knew they accepted me,
I apologized for having spoken of them as 'slaves' before I knew what they called themselves, and before I realized what the word sakai meant.

My apology was a simple phrase. I said I hoped they did not mind that I had called them 'Sakai’. I was not sure whether I had said it right: for a long time there was no reaction at all. I imagined that I saw smiles on a few faces, but it was dark, I could not be sure.

This time, again, one person answered. He—an adventuresome young man, I was told later—spoke slowly, simply, for my benefit perhaps. "No,” he said, "we do not mind when others call us Sakai. We look at the people 'down below’: they have to get up at a certain time in the morning, they have to pay for everything with money, which they have to earn doing things for other people, they are constantly told what they can and cannot do.” He paused, and then added, "no, we do not mind when they call us slaves.”

- See more at: [www.survival.org.au]

I think money sets us free- without it, feudalism.

The dark ages comes to mind, bands of gangs, murderers
....no civilization...animal.

People will come to kill you for the bark scrapings you just got.
Your job will be to live just one more day longer.

Very scary.

Yes we are at a point where everything is just so confusing and biploar. I am sure there are good points to a world without jobs.





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2015 03:24AM by coconutcream.

coconutcream Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think money sets us free


Money is stored energy.

> I think money sets us free
Work sets us free and money binds us.
We put power in the money instead of the work behind it.
Some want money now, commit crime to get it thinking it will set them free.
But it does not.
Work is money in the bank but money is not necessarily work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2015 01:12PM by RawPracticalist.

brilliant, Panchito. thank you.

similar descriptions from book called the continuum concept.

Awesome post, thumbs up of course. Of course they were hunter gatherer which is the only way a people could live off the land as it is and survive.

Suez wrote:
"Money is stored energy."

Having a thing called "rent" staring you in the face every month of your existence is not about "stored energy" it's about abject slavery in disguise. Rent was created by the white Euro dominators who stole land from the Natives and then enforced payments to have access to it.

It's a debt you have to satisfy just because you're A/Live on the planet, what a degradation. I suppose you listen to a lot of Abraham Hicks material eh?

NuNativs on YouTube...

I thank God that I live in a time and place where there is money and so I can work for myself and trade with almost anyone I want to in the world - as almost anyone in, or can get to, first world capitalist countries can if they are not terminally cowardly.


Not being forced to share and trade with those we don't care to deal with just because they are the only provider in our local proximity is such a huge bonus blessing, too, as is the ability to afford to leave undesirable locals if one wants to, etc. Now THAT is what I call freedom. Freedom to escape the mediocre.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Suez wrote:
> "Money is stored energy."
>
> Having a thing called "rent" staring you in the
> face every month of your existence is not about
> "stored energy" it's about abject slavery in
> disguise. Rent was created by the white Euro
> dominators who stole land from the Natives and
> then enforced payments to have access to it.

No one is forcing anyone to rent anything that I'm aware of.


I
> suppose you listen to a lot of Abraham Hicks
> material eh?


This is the first time I've ever heard of Abraham Hicks so I have no idea who he is. I don't listen to tv or radio.

Suez wrote:
"No one is forcing anyone to rent anything that I'm aware of. "

Rent, mortgage whatever you want to call it. You are being forced to gather dollars whether you want to or not, to have a roof over your head to eat and so on. That's not free will, that's a script.

Most of the jobs people endure are demeaning, repetitive and ultimately useless to society at large. The plumber plumbs not because he wants to or that WE need more plumbing, he's just desperately trying to gather his monthly bills that are screaming at him, like a junky looking for heroin.

Suez continues:
"those we don't care to deal with"..."leave undesirable locals"

Everyone needs to be dealt with, there is no such thing as an "undesireable". WE are no further along than the least of U.S., though you can kid yourself.

(Oh ya I forgot, you're getting alimony...)

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


>
> Suez continues:
> "those we don't care to deal with"..."leave
> undesirable locals"
>
> Everyone needs to be dealt with, there is no such
> thing as an "undesireable".

You don't live in Monsantoland or Frackingville , etc.. if you don't know about dealing with local undesirables.


WE are no further
> along than the least of U.S., though you can kid
> yourself.

Just in your (and many stroke victim's) own head(s) - at least I hope there aren't many.


> (Oh ya I forgot, you're getting alimony...)

Not true. You made that up and posted it yourself, liar. You posted that lie a while back and now you believe it yourself I guess. Maybe it's because, in your head, everyone is you and you are everyone (or some such crap notion of that ilk you've bought into believing) so if you said something it must have been someone else who said it even though it's just you telling a lie. That's some top notch weasel thinking right there, fella.

Suez it's called compassion 101, you should try it. Just looking at things biologically reveals the way.

All matter on this planet including your body and everyone else's came from and is sustained by the Sun/Light, that means that you and the people you are trying to look down on are one and the same.

When I exhale here in California, you will eventually breath in the same air.

When I piss in the woods, it will eventually evaporate, rain down from the sky and you will drink it.

WE Live one and the same Life, the division you see is an illusion...

NuNativs on YouTube...

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> When I exhale here in California, you will
> eventually breath in the same air.
>
> When I piss in the woods, it will eventually
> evaporate, rain down from the sky and you will
> drink it.
>

now that is the funniest visual i have heard all day.



nunativs, what's your story, how long do you plan to roam? you have incoming funds/savings for the foreseeable future?

Nu Nativs wrote:
Most of the jobs people endure are demeaning, repetitive and ultimately useless to society at large. The plumber plumbs not because he wants to or that WE need more plumbing, he's just desperately trying to gather his monthly bills that are screaming at him, like a junky looking for heroin.

Tai:
??????
RVs need plumbing and RV dump stations need very sophisticated plumbing.
Even in ancient archeological finds, people find sophisticated plumbing using rocks and stones. I think plumbers were always needed.

When I went to rainbow gatherings (total living off the grid), basic plumbing was employed and it required some expertise. The rainbow gatherings function via trading, not with money, and skills are shared. Plumbing is a very valuable skill and even with no money exchanged, it is a job that must be done, and some people are drawn to do it. (And have you ever dug a sh%$^&! in the forest? It is hard work. without plumbing, a person has to work very hard all the time. Then good plumbing ends up saving people time, not wasting it.)

SOme jobs are a waste, I will give you that, but not plumbing. Plumbers are awesome.

Have you ever been to a rainbow gathering? Many of the responsible people there are having a good time, but they spend a good amount of time volunteering. Like they cook (even do raw prep), teach classes, help with first aid station, help with clean up, tend fires, help with shelter, do water runs (very tiring). Living off the grid requires a lot of work and without money, a lot of cooperation. Drainbows are the ones that don't want to work or help out.

Best conversation in a long time. Thanks, Panchito

Money is great, Free-Market Capitalism is great, big houses are great, owning land is great, private property is great.

The RV life would be my worst nightmare - traveling on the road - the air is nasty and then you feel carsick. Stopping at places where you have to fraternize with other strangers must be a drag, living in a dinky space with someone else would be the pits, too. Being exposed to the elements half the time - "Nature" - could become old fast - bugs, weather. I want all the comforts of - a big beautiful - home in the country on my own land.

To Each His Own.

Many of the things we encounter everyday do not exist. They are like unicorns that have a virtual nature but do not exists in nature or real life. They only exist in the mind. The bigest of them all is perhaps a country. Countries do not exist. Countries only exist in the minds. There is a psychological continuity mechanism that makes people see and live with virtual objects inside their head. Their bodies could be free but their minds could live inside a virtual prison of thoughts that could make them sick. Maybe domestication has a role in the mental conditioning of people that prevents them from thinking differently. Before agriculture (Neolithic), there was foraging. Agriculture technology allowed for the origin of the first cities. Before agriculture, there were no cities or large stablishments. City lifestyle promoted mental domestication and work specialization and it changed the way people think. They did not live in nature (foraging) but inside an ideological circle that created mental boundaries called countries. Now, everybody believes in countries yet they do not exits. If you try to cross to another "country," people that believe in virtual countries will block you. So even if free yourself of virtual objects, you still have to live blocked by the virtual objects that other people see.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2015 08:33PM by Panchito.

NuNativs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> When I piss in the woods, it will eventually
> evaporate, rain down from the sky and you will
> drink it.


Not me - not in this lifetime at least. I have a 300 foot deep well and a distiller.

Outside of doing the basics like growing food, maintaining shelter, etc., anyone who has to have a real job would rather not have that job. You have these drones who utter the words, "I love my job." They're simply deluded/brainwashed. They're playing a trick on themselves so that they they don't self-implode. They're also afraid of not appearing "happy." It's a survival mechanism. Everyone would rather not work. Any honest person who has a real job will tell you that they feel like they've been born into slavery. The entire system is rigged to drive as much labor and consumerism out of us as possible. It sucks.

Beware anyone who promotes the merits of this system. They probably have some poor, exploited sap (alimony payer for example) who does all the work for them.They have no knowledge of the mental, physical, and spiritual degradation that's experienced by the working shlub.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2015 10:12PM by HH.

Raising children is probably the hardest job. Some people might actually like it too. I know plenty who hated it. Just wanted to add that lest someone think that I only believe that corporate slavery is work.

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Outside of doing the basics like growing food,
> maintaining shelter, etc., anyone who has to have
> a real job would rather not have that job.

Well if you'd rather be a farmer and a carpenter than a professor it's a good thing for you, your students, and the world that you opted out of the system and are now self employed.



You
> have these drones who utter the words, "I love my
> job." They're simply deluded/brainwashed. They're
> playing a trick on themselves so that they they
> don't self-implode. They're also afraid of not
> appearing "happy." It's a survival mechanism.


I've known several people that are like that. Not every employee is though. I've known genuinely happy ones who feel they are doing good in the world and have no further aspirations. I've worked for others at times myself and never once did the thought cross my mind that I was someone's slave.


> Everyone would rather not work. Any honest person
> who has a real job will tell you that they feel
> like they've been born into slavery. The entire
> system is rigged to drive as much labor and
> consumerism out of us as possible. It sucks.

It's possible to work within the system without being a slave to it. The majority of successful people that I know of have learned the ropes someplace working for someone and then go on to work for themselves. I've done it myself. You've just got to have the right attitude to enjoy that sort of thing though. The faster you learn the faster you can get out and on your own. It wouldn't be fun for someone who feels like a doomed slave, though, I'm sure.


> Beware anyone who promotes the merits of this
> system.


The merits of the system are that a lot of stuff has been worked out. Dip into it so you don't have to reinvent wheels then get out and on your own. That's the way you do it if you're smart. If you're really smart you can figure a lot of the stuff you need to know out without having to become an employee. I never was that smart but I know people who were able to go the short cut route and learned some good techniques from listening to them.

They probably have some poor, exploited
> sap (alimony payer for example) who does all the
> work for them.They have no knowledge of the
> mental, physical, and spiritual degradation that's
> experienced by the working shlub.

I hope you aren't referring to what a liar said about me in that paragraph with your alimony crack. That is not me. In any case I hope you are not as unhappy with your self employment as you were in your professorship employment and that one day you find a way to grow your own food and do all the upkeep on your home instead of working if that's what you really want to do.

Personally I think it would be nice to buy a small piece of land and live off-grid in a solar powered shack or cabin, at least for a while. Seems like it would be a good investment, you'd just need to find out how much it would cost initially to build a cabin and add solar power.

As far as I know you were not around when I discussed my background. Were you lurking back then or were you operating under another alias?

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Outside of doing the basics like growing food,
> > maintaining shelter, etc., anyone who has to
> have
> > a real job would rather not have that job.
>
> Well if you'd rather be a farmer and a carpenter
> than a professor it's a good thing for you, your
> students, and the world that you opted out of the
> system and are now self employed.
>
>
>
> You
> > have these drones who utter the words, "I love
> my
> > job." They're simply deluded/brainwashed.
> They're
> > playing a trick on themselves so that they they
> > don't self-implode. They're also afraid of not
> > appearing "happy." It's a survival mechanism.
>
>
> I've known several people that are like that. Not
> every employee is though. I've known genuinely
> happy ones who feel they are doing good in the
> world and have no further aspirations. I've worked
> for others at times myself and never once did the
> thought cross my mind that I was someone's slave.
>
>
>
> > Everyone would rather not work. Any honest
> person
> > who has a real job will tell you that they feel
> > like they've been born into slavery. The entire
> > system is rigged to drive as much labor and
> > consumerism out of us as possible. It sucks.
>
> It's possible to work within the system without
> being a slave to it. The majority of successful
> people that I know of have learned the ropes
> someplace working for someone and then go on to
> work for themselves. I've done it myself. You've
> just got to have the right attitude to enjoy that
> sort of thing though. The faster you learn the
> faster you can get out and on your own. It
> wouldn't be fun for someone who feels like a
> doomed slave, though, I'm sure.
>
>
> > Beware anyone who promotes the merits of this
> > system.
>
>
> The merits of the system are that a lot of stuff
> has been worked out. Dip into it so you don't have
> to reinvent wheels then get out and on your own.
> That's the way you do it if you're smart. If
> you're really smart you can figure a lot of the
> stuff you need to know out without having to
> become an employee. I never was that smart but I
> know people who were able to go the short cut
> route and learned some good techniques from
> listening to them.
>
> They probably have some poor, exploited
> > sap (alimony payer for example) who does all
> the
> > work for them.They have no knowledge of the
> > mental, physical, and spiritual degradation
> that's
> > experienced by the working shlub.
>
> I hope you aren't referring to what a liar said
> about me in that paragraph with your alimony
> crack. That is not me. In any case I hope you are
> not as unhappy with your self employment as you
> were in your professorship employment and that one
> day you find a way to grow your own food and do
> all the upkeep on your home instead of working if
> that's what you really want to do.

<<<As far as I know you (s--z) were not around when I discussed my background. Were you lurking back then or were you operating under another alias?>>>

Here's a PM I sent out when s--z first started posting...

Hey BW,

This doesn't have anything to do with this particular Post, but I thought that you would get a kick out of the similarities between SueZ and Tamukha. Tamukha immediately started attacking me when I first started posting again and SueZ's first Post also attacked me. Obviously, their stories are different, but every time I read one of SueZ's Posts I really have a strong feeling that SueZ and Tamukha are the same person.

Think about it. If Tam were to come back as a Shill with another name and a different Story, she would sound just like SueZ.

Anyway, I thought that you would get a kick out of this and if anyone could see the similarities, I knew it would be you.

Love and Hugs........JR

End of PM

Here's another similarity between SueZ and Tamukha - they both wrote a ton of posts in a very short period of time.

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as I know you were not around when I
> discussed my background. Were you lurking back
> then or were you operating under another alias?
>
> SueZ Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HH Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Outside of doing the basics like growing
> food,
> > > maintaining shelter, etc., anyone who has to
> > have
> > > a real job would rather not have that job.
> >
> > Well if you'd rather be a farmer and a
> carpenter
> > than a professor it's a good thing for you,
> your
> > students, and the world that you opted out of
> the
> > system and are now self employed.
> >
> >
> >
> > You
> > > have these drones who utter the words, "I
> love
> > my
> > > job." They're simply deluded/brainwashed.
> > They're
> > > playing a trick on themselves so that they
> they
> > > don't self-implode. They're also afraid of
> not
> > > appearing "happy." It's a survival mechanism.
> >
> >
> > I've known several people that are like that.
> Not
> > every employee is though. I've known genuinely
> > happy ones who feel they are doing good in the
> > world and have no further aspirations. I've
> worked
> > for others at times myself and never once did
> the
> > thought cross my mind that I was someone's
> slave.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Everyone would rather not work. Any honest
> > person
> > > who has a real job will tell you that they
> feel
> > > like they've been born into slavery. The
> entire
> > > system is rigged to drive as much labor and
> > > consumerism out of us as possible. It sucks.
> >
> > It's possible to work within the system without
> > being a slave to it. The majority of successful
> > people that I know of have learned the ropes
> > someplace working for someone and then go on to
> > work for themselves. I've done it myself.
> You've
> > just got to have the right attitude to enjoy
> that
> > sort of thing though. The faster you learn the
> > faster you can get out and on your own. It
> > wouldn't be fun for someone who feels like a
> > doomed slave, though, I'm sure.
> >
> >
> > > Beware anyone who promotes the merits of this
> > > system.
> >
> >
> > The merits of the system are that a lot of
> stuff
> > has been worked out. Dip into it so you don't
> have
> > to reinvent wheels then get out and on your
> own.
> > That's the way you do it if you're smart. If
> > you're really smart you can figure a lot of the
> > stuff you need to know out without having to
> > become an employee. I never was that smart but
> I
> > know people who were able to go the short cut
> > route and learned some good techniques from
> > listening to them.
> >
> > They probably have some poor, exploited
> > > sap (alimony payer for example) who does all
> > the
> > > work for them.They have no knowledge of the
> > > mental, physical, and spiritual degradation
> > that's
> > > experienced by the working shlub.
> >
> > I hope you aren't referring to what a liar said
> > about me in that paragraph with your alimony
> > crack. That is not me. In any case I hope you
> are
> > not as unhappy with your self employment as you
> > were in your professorship employment and that
> one
> > day you find a way to grow your own food and do
> > all the upkeep on your home instead of working
> if
> > that's what you really want to do.

I lurked for a long time before I actually posted so I'm not sure on the timing. Is that important to you for some reason? As I recall I read rather recently, in a post by Bananawho, that you were a professor. Maybe I'm not remembering rightly.


I have never posted anything here under a different name. I may have gone on lurking without posting forever if it hadn't been for rose's outrageous history rewriting diatribes that had, and have, nothing at all to do with raw vegan food and were getting on my nerves for too long without saying anything.

Was your crack about people who never worked and live on someone's alimony a crack you meant to have people to think of as aimed at me? The poster who said that about me in this thread and another doesn't know anything about me is a liar for saying that. It is not true. Are you sure you want to join in on that little smear job of his?

<<<rose's outrageous history rewriting diatribes that had, and have, nothing at all to do with raw vegan food>>>

Yea right, there's no connection...

“History would be something extraordinary, if only it were true.” -Leo Tolstoy

“Vegetarianism serves as the criterion by which we know that the pursuit of moral perfection on the part of humanity is genuine and sincere.” -Leo Tolstoy

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Personally I think it would be nice to buy a small
> piece of land and live off-grid in a solar powered
> shack or cabin, at least for a while. Seems like
> it would be a good investment, you'd just need to
> find out how much it would cost initially to build
> a cabin and add solar power.


Prices are coming down on solar setups and if you live in a sunny area they are a very worthwhile investment for off grid living. As I recall Marcus Rothkranz runs his whole Las Vegas house on solar and has written a book on how to DIY.

Another off grid housing solution is to set up a yurt on your property. They are pretty inexpensive and if you get a small one all the pieces can fit in the back of a pickup truck for easy transport. All you'd have to do is build a pad for it. For that job you can hook up rechargeable tools to an inverter on your truck or car's battery.

You'd have to investigate zoning restrictions first though when you're looking for land. Some people have gotten around harsh zoning laws successfully by calling their yurts "gazebos" to conform to building codes.

Regarding how you know what you know about me, I was just curious. I've been around here for a while and it's obvious that some people deal in multiple aliases. Since I haven't posted here much since you came around, I was surprised that you have any knowledge of me or that you've recalled anything that you heard about me. My only interaction with you (over a year ago) left me with the distinct impression that you seriously dislike me.

I was admittedly being cheeky, but I also wanted to see what you had to say about your stance on work and being on alimony. Once again, I was curious. I had no idea that the person was flat-out lying about you. Sorry for trusting that the info about you was true when it wasn't. That is indeed a scurrilous claim.


SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HH Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > As far as I know you were not around when I
> > discussed my background. Were you lurking back
> > then or were you operating under another alias?
>
> >
> > SueZ Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > HH Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Outside of doing the basics like growing
> > food,
> > > > maintaining shelter, etc., anyone who has
> to
> > > have
> > > > a real job would rather not have that job.
> > >
> > > Well if you'd rather be a farmer and a
> > carpenter
> > > than a professor it's a good thing for you,
> > your
> > > students, and the world that you opted out of
> > the
> > > system and are now self employed.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You
> > > > have these drones who utter the words, "I
> > love
> > > my
> > > > job." They're simply deluded/brainwashed.
> > > They're
> > > > playing a trick on themselves so that they
> > they
> > > > don't self-implode. They're also afraid of
> > not
> > > > appearing "happy." It's a survival
> mechanism.
> > >
> > >
> > > I've known several people that are like that.
> > Not
> > > every employee is though. I've known
> genuinely
> > > happy ones who feel they are doing good in
> the
> > > world and have no further aspirations. I've
> > worked
> > > for others at times myself and never once did
> > the
> > > thought cross my mind that I was someone's
> > slave.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Everyone would rather not work. Any honest
> > > person
> > > > who has a real job will tell you that they
> > feel
> > > > like they've been born into slavery. The
> > entire
> > > > system is rigged to drive as much labor and
> > > > consumerism out of us as possible. It
> sucks.
> > >
> > > It's possible to work within the system
> without
> > > being a slave to it. The majority of
> successful
> > > people that I know of have learned the ropes
> > > someplace working for someone and then go on
> to
> > > work for themselves. I've done it myself.
> > You've
> > > just got to have the right attitude to enjoy
> > that
> > > sort of thing though. The faster you learn
> the
> > > faster you can get out and on your own. It
> > > wouldn't be fun for someone who feels like a
> > > doomed slave, though, I'm sure.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Beware anyone who promotes the merits of
> this
> > > > system.
> > >
> > >
> > > The merits of the system are that a lot of
> > stuff
> > > has been worked out. Dip into it so you don't
> > have
> > > to reinvent wheels then get out and on your
> > own.
> > > That's the way you do it if you're smart. If
> > > you're really smart you can figure a lot of
> the
> > > stuff you need to know out without having to
> > > become an employee. I never was that smart
> but
> > I
> > > know people who were able to go the short cut
> > > route and learned some good techniques from
> > > listening to them.
> > >
> > > They probably have some poor, exploited
> > > > sap (alimony payer for example) who does
> all
> > > the
> > > > work for them.They have no knowledge of the
> > > > mental, physical, and spiritual degradation
> > > that's
> > > > experienced by the working shlub.
> > >
> > > I hope you aren't referring to what a liar
> said
> > > about me in that paragraph with your alimony
> > > crack. That is not me. In any case I hope you
> > are
> > > not as unhappy with your self employment as
> you
> > > were in your professorship employment and
> that
> > one
> > > day you find a way to grow your own food and
> do
> > > all the upkeep on your home instead of
> working
> > if
> > > that's what you really want to do.
>
> I lurked for a long time before I actually posted
> so I'm not sure on the timing. Is that important
> to you for some reason? As I recall I read rather
> recently, in a post by Bananawho, that you were a
> professor. Maybe I'm not remembering rightly.
>
>
> I have never posted anything here under a
> different name. I may have gone on lurking without
> posting forever if it hadn't been for rose's
> outrageous history rewriting diatribes that had,
> and have, nothing at all to do with raw vegan food
> and were getting on my nerves for too long without
> saying anything.
>
> Was your crack about people who never worked and
> live on someone's alimony a crack you meant to
> have people to think of as aimed at me? The poster
> who said that about me in this thread and another
> doesn't know anything about me is a liar for
> saying that. It is not true. Are you sure you want
> to join in on that little smear job of his?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/18/2015 02:23AM by HH.

HH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regarding how you know what you know about me, I
> was just curious. I've been around here for a
> while and it's obvious that some people deal in
> multiple aliases. Since I haven't posted here much
> since you came around, I was surprised that you
> have any knowledge of me or that you've recalled
> anything that you heard about me. My only
> interaction with you (over a year ago) left me
> with the distinct impression that you seriously
> dislike me.

I didn't dislike you I just didn't want to talk about why I think universities and colleges are no place for artists to learn anything about being an artist in this venue and felt pressured to do so by you. That's what I was reacting to.


> I was admittedly being cheeky, but I also wanted
> to see what you had to say about your stance on
> work and being on alimony. Once again, I was
> curious. I had no idea that the person was
> flat-out lying about you. Sorry for trusting that
> the info about you was true when it wasn't. That
> is indeed a scurrilous claim.


Thank you for understanding. Usually I let these smear jobs on me pass but it gets annoying when others are convinced to believe the lies, too.

SueZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jtprindl Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Personally I think it would be nice to buy a
> small
> > piece of land and live off-grid in a solar
> powered
> > shack or cabin, at least for a while. Seems
> like
> > it would be a good investment, you'd just need
> to
> > find out how much it would cost initially to
> build
> > a cabin and add solar power.
>
>
> Prices are coming down on solar setups and if you
> live in a sunny area they are a very worthwhile
> investment for off grid living. As I recall Marcus
> Rothkranz runs his whole Las Vegas house on solar
> and has written a book on how to DIY.
>
> Another off grid housing solution is to set up a
> yurt on your property. They are pretty inexpensive
> and if you get a small one all the pieces can fit
> in the back of a pickup truck for easy transport.
> All you'd have to do is build a pad for it. For
> that job you can hook up rechargeable tools to an
> inverter on your truck or car's battery.
>
> You'd have to investigate zoning restrictions
> first though when you're looking for land. Some
> people have gotten around harsh zoning laws
> successfully by calling their yurts "gazebos" to
> conform to building codes.


I don't even know where to begin when searching for off-grid options. What's the best way to buy a small chunk of land with a cheap annual fee, from the government or a land owner? What's a rough estimate of how much it would cost to build a small cabin with solar power and water access (preferably a deep well)?

Lois said:
"Money is great, Free-Market Capitalism is great, big houses are great, owning land is great, private property is great." and " I want all the comforts of - a big beautiful - home in the country on my own land."

"What is this you call property? It cannot be the earth, for the land is our mother, nourishing all her children, beasts, birds, fish and all men. The woods, the streams, everything on it belongs to everybody and is for the use of all. How can one man say it belongs only to him?" -Massasoit

The Brahiminist theology called Vedanta believes that the root of ownership is the feeling that one is separate from the rest of the universe. Given this understanding, one disconnects oneself from the universe, and then attempts to reconnect with objects through a relationship which is called ownership. Vedanta believes that the feeling of ownership is an illusion, which remains with oneself as long as one considers oneself as separate from the Universe. When one understands the fundamental reality that there is only one entity called the Universe, there is no need for ownership and one gets rid of this illusion.

(Your diet's not serving you....)

jtprindl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't even know where to begin when searching
> for off-grid options.

1. Web groups of people who are discussing what they are doing.

2. Companies with excellent ratings who supply off grid equipment.

3. Realtors who have offerings in the locations you are interested in.

What's the best way to buy a
> small chunk of land with a cheap annual fee, from
> the government or a land owner?

Don't know but I wouldn't buy land from the government. If you mean cheap annual fee I guess you mean low taxes which commonly means a rural area with few and bad schools to fund.

What's a rough
> estimate of how much it would cost to build a
> small cabin with solar power and water access
> (preferably a deep well)?

Just as with all real estate it all mostly depends on location, location, location.

A deep well uses too much power for cheap off grid systems to handle and the deeper the well the more it costs. A deep well will probably cost more than the land. Much more. It would probably be much cheaper to store water in tanks or buy improved land that already has a well and septic system.

Costco sells prefab cabins made by the Amish. You can also buy kits to DIY.

Most of these things will be hard to fund with borrowed money. I you want a big loan you would probably be better off buying a distressed property (not in foreclosure or a short sale) with a junky old trailer on it you can use while you build a nicer place on the land.

Whatever you do set aside funds for a real estate lawyer. The last thing you want is to buy land which has been a dump for environmental toxins or has had a leaking tank of gas/oil buried in it. If you make that mistake you will never get out of the liability chain. Ever.