I was just having a conversation with someone about how some people say " I did it all by myself. I am a self made person blah blah blah"

Well, that may be true in a certain aspect but it is certainly not if one sees the situation in a "whole" istic frame of light.

Even a raw vegan never does it alone. They rely on so many factors to come together in perfect synchronicity. Human factors and non human factors. In order for me to have a plate of salad, I must have relied on at least 1000 people, properties, environmental factors, machinery, water, electrical stuff, etc. From the person who put the seed into the ground to the people who tend to it, to the people who harvest it, ... if the salad has some berries in it... someone picked those berries.. if the salad has a few slices of apples in it.... someone spend years and years growing and tending to that tree... the weather had to be just right.. the sun... the right amount of sun... or frost... transportation, gasoline, people who are willing to drive that food to the right location... water... people who laid the piping for that water.... the list is endless...

If one thinks of all the things they achieved... it usually was not done in isolation.

I feel humbled by all the people who continue to quietly and silently work for me so that I can simply have some greens on my plate.... or eat an apple... or
chomp on a handful of nuts.

Oh my yes!
To be able to drive 1 mile and get all the fresh produce I could want is really a blessing,from all those people that worked to bring it to me.
I sometimes wonder if anyone was 100% raw generations ago,when in the cold of winter it would have been impossible to find fresh fruits or veggies.

Vinny

I love your thoughts Veronique.

Even the people who grow the food rely on others to make it happen: right on down to the little earthworms who condition our soil for us.

We all depend on each other! It's wonderful.

True Veronique, however another way of looking at it is that you wouldn't be ALLOWED to do that. You wouldn't be allowed to go onto a grapes plantation and pick your grapes there.

Why should they be allowed to say that they "own" all of those grapes and you can't have any of them? The earth belongs to us all.

It's not about the glass being half empty or half full either. You can't sit there and tell me that the glass is half full when it's being destroyed and overpopulated to an extreme level.

Yeah, well it is pretty dismal how deep, far and seemingly irretrievable the trajectory of exploitation, overpopopulation, degradation of the earth etc is. It is also deplorable that so much gas is wasted, thus the air polluted etc. in order to truck produce from far away place instead of having only local produce show up in the local stores. This is all true. But the question I pose to you is this:

You say the earth belongs to all of us. Okay. However, even if the earth does belong to all of us, if one guy is spending seven years of his life sweating and toiling and doing back breaking labor in order to grow a field of grapes and another guy is doing absolutely nothing at all to tend to the grapes and just wishes to take some...which guy is justified in wanting to keep the grapes and which guy is justified in wanting to take the grapes of another? Even in olden times when people did believe in that notion, there was also a notion of work ethics and those who did not work were not allowed to eat.

superinfinity said

'True Veronique, however another way of looking at it is that you wouldn't be ALLOWED to do that. You wouldn't be allowed to go onto a grapes plantation and pick your grapes there.
Why should they be allowed to say that they "own" all of those grapes and you can't have any of them? The earth belongs to us all. '


Yes but why should you be allowed to go and help yourself to the result of someone elses hard work.

Don't come and think you can help yourself to my lettuce

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But the question I pose
> to you is this:
>
> You say the earth belongs to all of us. Okay.
> However, even if the earth does belong to all of
> us, if one guy is spending seven years of his life
> sweating and toiling and doing back breaking labor
> in order to grow a field of grapes and another guy
> is doing absolutely nothing at all to tend to the
> grapes and just wishes to take some...which guy is
> justified in wanting to keep the grapes and which
> guy is justified in wanting to take the grapes of
> another? Even in olden times when people did
> believe in that notion, there was also a notion of
> work ethics and those who did not work were not
> allowed to eat.

(This post is to flipperjan as well).

That's a good point. However of course grapes grow on their own naturally and their fruit is much better that way, unless the strictest of organic standards were in place where they might be comparable.

Other primates and animals also get their food by wandering around picking it themselves, (at least until their evolutionary-relative fool the Human came along). You would merrily walk along picking up grapes as you go. This is what you're evolved to do, this is why exercise and stretching/picking is so good for you and healthy and makes you feel happy. I think that you shouldn't have to work at all to get raw, organic food, which is more or less impossible for nearly everyone in today's world.

This is why I think overpopulation is sooooooooooo bad. It starts with: "Well there's easily enough food for everyone", and then it starts to get as if it's a privilege to get food, especially good organic food. And we're told about how people out in poor countries have little to no food at all and how privileged we should all feel. It's the exact same system that's doing it all!!! The ONLY system humans really need is some way of curtailing population growth.

So by all means be grateful and thankful to the people who grew it, but my feeling is just don't ever be TOO grateful, especially if they're not using organic standards. If they're genuinely trying to help people then yes they have one of the most legitimate trades there is, but I just don't think feeling that it's a privilege to eat good food is a good thing.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2009 07:37PM by SuperInfinity.

Well, I see your point. Certainly, prior to sedentarianism, where people actually STOPPED hunting and gathering and decided to "settle" on tracts of land and grow their own food. That was actually the beginning of the end. The end of moving and gathering ( for the most part) and the beginning of agriculture which is actually the roots of overpopulation if you think about it. As long as people are moving around and gathering, they have a darn good sense of their carrying capacity and how much food there is in the land and if they are moving around, they are not liable to have a million babies because it is a hardship. Once the agricultural "institution" began, people started putting down their roots and having more babies because their food was no longer something to roam after but was right in their front or backyard. This society and "gathering" is incompatible. There are simply too many people because the institution of agriculture went awry and people's sense for their carrying capacity just went out the window. But obviously overpopulation is just the beginning of the problem. There are so many other issues that just keep burgeoning. I agree that not eating foods that are organic is taking a chance with one's health. I eat all my greens organically. I think we should all be like Davey Mason and grow our own organic gardens. Hey Davey, hows the garden coming along? Any new pics for us?

I can't actually get into this whole debate because it's late and I need to get some shut eye. One point is though that if we didn't grow SO MUCH food to feed to animals (that are going to be eaten) there would be so much more food to go around etc etc

yes

so true

tHE GRAPE PLANTATION IS THERE TO GROW GRAPES AND THEN EARN MONEY. iF THEY CAN'T MAKE MONEY, THEN THEY CAN'T GROW MORE GRAPES. sHOULD WE EXPECT TO PARTAKE OF ANYONES PRODUCTION WITHOUT PAYING? hOW LONG WILLL YOU HAVE MATERIAL THINGS TO GIVE IF THEY ARE ALL TAKEN? mAYBE WE COULD BARTER WHEN WE CANT GET IT FOR FREE? bUT SOME THINGS ARE "WORTH" MORE THAN OTHERS. wHAT IF LAST YEAR YOU TRADED A BUNCH OF GRAPES FOR AN APPLE, AND THEN COMES WAS A BLIGHT ON APPLES AND THEY ARE HARD TO COME BY. tHIS YEAR THEY COST 3 BUNCHES OF GRAPES. tHAT'S THE AGREED UPON EXCHANGE. iS THIS UNFFAIR IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH GRAPES TO GET THE APPLE YOU REALLY WANT? iF THE APPLE GROWER SAYS, i STAND BY LAST YEARS PRICE EVEN IF IT MEANS i WON'T HAVE ENOUGH SEED TO REPLACE MY TREES, AND IT TAKES SEVEN YEARS BEFORE MY TREES BARE FRUIT. i PUT EVERYTHING i HAD INTO THESE TREES BUT i GUESS i'VE LOST IT ALL. tHEN THERE WON'T BE ANY APPLES FOR ANYONE. pERSONALLY i THING "THE WORKMAN IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE." tHE APPLES NEEDED TENDING AND HARVESTING. aNYWAY, i'LL LISTEN TO SEE AND LEARN SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

Indeed a lot of effort goes into growing the food we buy on a regular basis, but sometimes, I have to ask myself, "Is it worth it at all when there's no other vegan/raw people to share this with? No one else to love?" I feel just as rare as the vampires in Forever Knight, Moonlight, Blood Ties, and now The Vampire Diaries. Just like Mick in Moonlight, I tell people "I'm vegan, so I don't eat animal products." They have no idea why I don't do it. No idea. No idea of the guilt I carry around, long after my hunting days in my childhood. No idea of the work I had to do to let go of it by facing directly in my mind, my heart the animals who died and embracing them and the pain within, so that they could finally go home.

I finally just saw now why I can be condescending towards people who still eat animal products, because they live blindly with no understanding of the consequences of their actions. I feel like they dismiss all that I do to be able to live with myself. They grow our food for our money. That's all.

I haven't met anyone here in Houston people who are raw fooders. I've tried to e-mail a couple of them with web sites, but I've gotten no response from them. I don't know if it's because they don't care, or they are very guarded persons.

Stephanie



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2009 02:42AM by deafdrummer.

My husband and I spent many years (much money, and extensive labor) growing lots of fruit trees (organically of course). We give a lot of fruit away, because we can't make enough money to live on plus pay our property taxes when we spend all our time picking, cleaning, packing, labeling, and marketing the fruit. And we can't afford to hire labor. To keep our farm, we have to work outside the farm, plus tend our trees.

Weird huh? But I'm not complaining. It's simply the way things are (for us anyway).

Sometimes people come and work on the farm in return for food. That's always a good way to go for both parties.

Even the wild critters who come here contribute something by @#$%& around the trees while they're eating the fruits. It's nature's rule.

So, back to the original point, I believe that we all depend upon each other - all beings on the planet. It's only when we humans try to escape this very fine requirement of nature that we get ourselves into trouble.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2009 03:00AM by suncloud.

yes we all depend on each other

i think its funny because for some it means being vulnerable

but there will always be that because we are all part of the food web

and we are all inextricably related

so to be "independent" means to have depended VERY WELL on others to give the illusion of independence

Stephanie,

I mean no disrespect nor do I intend to sound inconsiderate, but maybe it's time to get the heck outta Texas, dear.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stephanie,
>
> I mean no disrespect nor do I intend to sound
> inconsiderate, but maybe it's time to get the heck
> outta Texas, dear.


No, no... We just need a bit more time. I'm not willing to move to a police state, and I don't like winters.

Stephanie

Stephanie,

I respect your not liking winter, though I myself would go monkeynuts someplace where there is no fall or winter. I don't know what you mean by "police state." It seems to me being under the subpolitical rule of the cattlemen's lobby is quite police statey enough for that. How about someplace like Chile or the US Caribbean? And who is it that needs a bit more time? The citizens of the Lone Star State? I wish them a speedy epiphany. Lastly, how about Austin, at least? They're way more open to alternatives there, no?