I am not a raw foodist. I mainly partake in a raw diet for a temporary period of time... just for the hell of it. That being said, I found this recipe for a so-called raw ranch dressing -> [thesunnyrawkitchen.blogspot.com]

Shortly after, I discovered this writing by John Kohler -> [www.rawglow.com]

I am ok with just about every ingredient in the recipe except the cider vinegar. Is there an alternative that can be used? Or, is there any recipe out there for a ranch dressing that is truly raw? My guess is that such a thing isn't possible.

Please post your comments.

Jargon, I'm going to be the party @#$%& here.

The only substitute, really, for vinegar, would be lemon juice (or lime juice), and I see that there's already lots of lemon juice in the dressing already.

But, in general, this recipe's very unhealthy, with a dangerously high amount of sodium chloride.

(Which is probably why it tastes like ranch dressing!).

Even if you're not raw, please don't use recipes with a tablespoon of salt. (You don't even see that in cooked recipes!)

[debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com]

Interesting that 'snowdrop' describes the recipe as 'addictive'. Indeed it would be. The amount of salt used in some raw food recipes can create a salt addiction where none existed before. (More on that in my article above).

Just a suggestion: if you're looking for creaminess try pineapple juice blended with pine nuts. (Although I know it's not the same as ranch dressing!).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2009 04:41AM by debbietook.

debbietook,

Good article on salt - thanks
As I was reading the part about salt licks I thought about how animals like cats and dogs will drink car anti-freeze if given the opportunity and get very sick. You would think that the animals would know better then to eat non-organized stuff like that but I guess they don't.

If your description of it being unhealthy is due to the high amount of salt, you must also keep in mind that the 1 tbsp measurement is for the entire batch, which is far more than one serving. It looks as though the recipe yields a good size bowl's worth of dressing.

I am definitely sure the dressing is highly unnecessary for any diet. The recipe just seemed likely a fairly healthy idea to work my way into the raw diet.

I was actually going to start the diet tonight, for about a two-week period. Then I found myself sitting there wondering what I was going to do all night if I couldn't consume alcohol.

I should probably work on that alcohol part first, before attempting something like this again. So as to stay on-topic to the post's subject, I will make a new post with an alcohol inquiry.

I did notice that it was for the whole batch, but a tbsp of salt is still extremely high for 'one recipe'.

And all my instincts tell me that, if you do make it, you're not going to be stopping at just one spoonful :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2009 10:17AM by debbietook.

Oh definitely not. Whether I do make it has yet to be decided though. I have never been one to follow recipes with more than a few ingredients.

jargon,

As a trained cook I must mention that 1 tbsp salt is excessive for that volume and savoriness of other ingredients. I suspect that it acts as a preservative rather than merely as a seasoning. Reduce the lemon juice, add some lime or green apple juice, and just 2 tsps salt initially, and see if it isn't OK.

The "alcohol thing" can be helped by the raw foods thing. Your brain demands a high. Give it fructose consistenly and you should see a difference. Reading that you were wondering what you were going to do all night if you didn't drink was the the most depressing thing ever. Think about all the fun, edifying things you could learn to do instead of getting hammered, and start branching out. Please. Best of luck : )

Not really....

Perhaps salt is bad for you perhaps it's not. But to base your decision on this article hardly seems valid. I'm a materials engineer who works extensively in electrochemistry. Just some of the stuff she says is so blatantly wrong I had trouble taking the article seriously.

"Sodium is an electrolyte, along with potassium and other minerals. Electrolytes become ions in solution and acquire the capacity to conduct electricity. Sodium, working with potassium, maintains fluid balance in our bodies and is involved in nervous system function."

No, sodium and potassium are alkali metals. They are highly active and react explosively with water. And sodium and potassium alone can not go into solution to form an electrolyte because they will not maintain charge balance. Na+ and K+ would be cations but need to have a mating anion to dissolve and form an ELECTROLYTE. They are not electrolytes alone until they go in solution and only if they are 1) soluble in the solvent of interest (most likely water in this case) 2) have charge balance.

Maybe she means minerals containing sodium and potassium. If that's the case maybe there is something to it as the mineral forms of sodium and potassium may have mating anion compounds connected to them that allows them to be used more effectively by the body. But NaCl is an ionic compound that WILL form an electrolyte when it goes in solution. To say that sea salt isn't an electrolyte but some how an alkali metal is, is well rather ridiculous to anyone having even a rudimentary understanding of electrochemistry.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2009 04:34PM by jyakulis.

As I am the 'SHE' referred to above, all I'd say is that, in writing the article, I talked to a Masters in Chemistry, and used an internet source from a chemist, amongst other sources. I then checked the article with various people, including a world-renowned raw food nutritionist of some 25 years' experience.

I just googled 'sodium, electrolyte' and one of the first pages I found said this:

'Sodium, calcium, potassium, chlorine, phosphate and magnesium are all electrolytes.'

That's from the US National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health. At least duffers like me are in good company.

Please excuse me if I demur on arguing the finer points of electrochemistry with you - I'll just sign out by saying...

funny how people disagree, isn't it?

And, if you think that 'perhaps' sodium chloride isn't bad for you, that's fine.

Love, the cat's mother. (Edit - will only be understood by Brits)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/05/2009 05:22PM by debbietook.

gee sorry debbie. didn't mean to poke the bear. you still have to maintain charge balance....just sayin'

Sodium chloride is actually an electrolyte whereas sodium is never one because if you melt down NaCl it forms a molten electrolyte used extensively in electro-refining, electro-winning, and diffusion coatings of metals. Any alkali/alkaline-halide behaves this way.

But I guess you could get an ionic compound if you mixed sodium with water, but like I said you would need to maintain charge balance. Hence, the reaction would proceed as follows forming sodium hydroxide, which in a solution of water would consist of Na+ cations and OH- anions. Ohh, and you would evolve hydrogen gas.

[www2.uni-siegen.de]

2 Na + 2 H2O-----> 2 NaOH + H2

"Solid sodium hydroxide or solutions of sodium hydroxide will cause chemical burns, permanent injury or scarring, and blindness if it contacts unprotected human or animal tissue. Protective equipment such as rubber gloves, safety clothing and eye protection should always be used when handling the material or its solutions.

Dissolution of sodium hydroxide is highly exothermic, and the resulting heat may cause heat burns or ignite flammables."

just eat or drink celery

all is well

Hey, I don't know about this recipe, but I make a great creamy dressing that tastes a lot like blue cheese dressing. It does have a little nutritional yeast in it which isn't raw but has lots of B vitamins. The rest of the recipe is raw and my family loves it. Let me know if you want it.

It's great when your family enjoy your food isn't it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2009 07:49AM by flipperjan.

jyakulis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> gee sorry debbie. didn't mean to poke the bear.
> you still have to maintain charge balance....just
> sayin'
>
> Sodium chloride is actually an electrolyte whereas
> sodium is never one because if you melt down NaCl
> it forms a molten electrolyte used extensively in
> electro-refining, electro-winning, and diffusion
> coatings of metals. Any alkali/alkaline-halide
> behaves this way.
>
> But I guess you could get an ionic compound if you
> mixed sodium with water, but like I said you would
> need to maintain charge balance. Hence, the
> reaction would proceed as follows forming sodium
> hydroxide, which in a solution of water would
> consist of Na+ cations and OH- anions. Ohh, and
> you would evolve hydrogen gas.
>
> [www2.uni-siegen.de]
> 4-1-1.html
>
> 2 Na + 2 H2O-----> 2 NaOH + H2
>
> "Solid sodium hydroxide or solutions of sodium
> hydroxide will cause chemical burns, permanent
> injury or scarring, and blindness if it contacts
> unprotected human or animal tissue. Protective
> equipment such as rubber gloves, safety clothing
> and eye protection should always be used when
> handling the material or its solutions.
>
> Dissolution of sodium hydroxide is highly
> exothermic, and the resulting heat may cause heat
> burns or ignite flammables."

Hi jyakulis,
I liked the link to the science experiment showing how explosively reactive metalic sodium (Na) is with water, thanks. We try to lay off the Na as found in our chemistry kits for this reason I think in the world of biology sodium is understood to mean dissolved sodium (Na+) as that's how it is mostly found in plants and animals. So that's what we mean when we say "sodium, calcium, potassium, chlorine..." are electolytes. It's a little like when you say sodium chloride is an electrolyte, though NaCl has to be in solution or molten to *act* as an electrolyte; that is, NaCl needs to be out of its crystalline state (dissolved into Na+ and Cl- ions?) to conduct electricity. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, as I would like to understand this subject. brad



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2009 12:54AM by loeve.

Jyakulis, I've had the time today to take a closer look at your original, and subsequent, message.

Loeve said:

'I think in the world of biology sodium is understood to mean dissolved sodium (Na+) as that's how it is mostly found in plants and animals. So that's what we mean when we say "sodium, calcium, potassium, chlorine..." are electolytes.'

I think that's how me, most people in the field of raw nutrition (and US National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health et al? :-)) would see it. Which is why, in common with most people in the raw food world, I described sodium as an electrolyte.

You said:

'They are not electrolytes alone until they go in solution.'

I did say: 'Electrolytes become ions in solution '. But perhaps'become ions' is not technically correct?

You also said:

'Maybe she means minerals containing sodium and potassium. If that's the case maybe there is something to it'

I did say: "Sodium, is an electrolyte, along with potassium and other minerals
(ie I did mean 'in mineral form'...)

And you said:

'To say that sea salt isn't an electrolyte....ridiculous'

I don't think that anywhere in the article did I claim this. In fact, I think my discussion with the chemists later in the article says the opposite (ie provided it's dissolved, and that's the 'x factor' isn't it?)?


Anyhow...I wonder if you could help me here. I'll have to admit your detailed chemical explanations are way above my head, as they would be above 99% of my readers if I attempted to incorporate them within the article. As I said, I did check what I was saying quite carefully with people knowledgeable in chemistry. But, I do like to improve my articles where I can.

So, could you suggest any way I could reword the paragraph in question to make it more scientifically accurate?

Just as a reminder, this is my original paragraph. If you could insert/delete/reword where necessary without making it overlong/overtechnical, that would be good.

'Sodium is an electrolyte, along with potassium and other minerals. Electrolytes become ions in solution and acquire the capacity to conduct electricity. Sodium, working with potassium, maintains fluid balance in our bodies and is involved in nervous system function.'

I'll then have a mull over what loeve has said, and what you have said, and decide whether the article needs editing.

(with thanks to 'jargon'!)

Many thanks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2009 10:38AM by debbietook.

PS Loeve, would appreciate any suggestions you could make re possible rewording as well.

Debbie,

'Sodium is an electrolyte, along with potassium and other minerals. Electrolytes become ions in solution and acquire the capacity to conduct electricity. Sodium, working with potassium, maintains fluid balance in our bodies and is involved in nervous system function.'

This sentence sounds fine to me. You are writting about sodium as an electrolyte using a physiological definition pertaining to the context of *the body* --

e•lec•tro•lyte
...
2. Physiol. any of certain inorganic compounds, mainly sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, chloride, and bicarbonate, that dissociate in biological fluids into ions capable of conducting electrical currents and constituting a major force in controlling fluid balance within the body.

Random House Unabridged Dictionary, Copyright © 1997, by Random House, Inc., on Infoplease.

[dictionary.infoplease.com]

A materials engineer would have been taught electrolytes under the classical chemistry definition, imo, which is what jyakulis so carefully tryed to explain.

that recipe looks so good i really want to eat it. I must eat simple though

Loeve (Brad) - thank you so much for your input on this.

I'll wait a little to see if jyakulus has any further comments, but I will probably edit to include four words to precede the first sentence -

'In a physiological context'