Is there a way to can or jar food without pressurizing it. Can i just hot seal a jar of Krout without it needing to boil.

Peace upon your path
Sher-Doc.

Sher-Doc.

Unfortunately, no. The processing of the jars in boiling water is the final insurance step against pathogenic contamination. There have been known cases of fatal botulism spreading from cleaned produce in clean jars that weren't boil-treated in the final stage of canning. I think better to preserve whatever you are trying to can by dehydrating. Otherwise, just eat it fresh or perhaps freeze it, hmmm?

Tam is right - of course. Anything preserved long-term in a jar or can must be rendered enzymatically inert and free of harmful microorgansims....or they would simply breed on the shelf and give off toxins. Commercially, this is usually done through heat pasturization, chemicals or both.

You CAN store fresh produce...or krout...in a sealed container in the refrigerator...and a little acid like lemon juice might help to reduce oxidation and retard micro-organisms. But I would still eat it as fresh as possible.

Be especially careful when fermenting your own items! And rinse your sprouts at least 3 times per day.....sprout in small batches...and keep them covered. Just some tips.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Nothing smells worse than rotten krout. =)

Back in the summer, I washed/dried & then filled small ball mason jars with blueberries, then froze then with the intention of thawing them for smoothies this winter. I have maybe about 6 or 8 of the 1 quart jars.

I didn't do anything special, nothing added to the jars. Just washed dried the jars & then added the berries. Am I safe on this? The research that I have done so far online says that I am, but Tam with her "fatal botulism" comment got me concerned a wee bit.

Obviously this isn't canned produce, but still...

juicerkatz,

The blueberries should be fine; they are home flash-frozen, so to speak. It's the storing of uncooked produce in a jar at room temperature without a sterilization step that is the problem.

To my knowledge, the only thing that can be preserved raw(technically) in a jar at room temperature virtually indefinitely is Moroccan lemons. But that's about 1/4 salt by volume, so it can't really spoil. I made a batch homemade last year. It sat at room temp for 2 1/2 months and it's been in the fridge since last May and it's still germ-free. I'm thinking of taking it out and leaving it on the counter for a few weeks to see if it's still homeostatic : )

Yikes, that spooks me because I was putting my green smoothies / juices in glass jars to take to work. I always drank one on the way to work and left it in the car all day, but washed it out good when I got home - not necessarily in the DISHWASHER, though. Makes me wonder if that's what might have caused my mysterious "flu" bug the last 2 weeks? Would botulism cause a fever and relentless diarrhea? But my labs and stools were negative for anything like that and they just chalked it up to "viral." Even as a nurse, I've never personally handled any patients with botulism infections. Hmmmm..... That makes me wonder..... Will have to do some research on that.

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

Just as a side note, I think (opinion) that people that eat processed foods - especially meat - are often dosed with at least mild doses of food poisoning. It's usually only enough to caused the runs.....mild fever....upset stomach.....headache......but people become accustomed to it....and don't notice it....and (like myself) can often develop IBS or other digestive problems. Its something that generally disappears completely when on a high-raw diet. That's why I'm always critical of reports of food poisoning or e-coli from spinach or other produce. It is often animal products which are contaminating the produce!

So: fresh produce is ok. Anything else that is just sitting wet at room temperature should be consumed quickly - and carefully smelled for signs of fermentation or decay.

-David Z. Mason

WWW.RawFoodFarm.com

Tam - thanks for the insight, makes sense, about being "flash-frozen" & not storing at room temperation like canning jars are. I know, I know, the enzymes are somewhat destroyed now...I wonder if they are destroyed further the longer that you keep them frozen?


plainlydressed - I do the same as you, sometimes storing smoothies for over a day with no ill effects, and juices made with my Norwalk for up to three days. You can tell when they start to turn. (go bad).

I know that the long term storage is not the best thing for the enzyme breakdown, but in todays' hurried lifestyle, sometimes you have to do it that way.

Also, I will typically put a healthy dose of lemon in smoothies/juices to act as a preservative. For some reason, I got it in my head that it works...


davidzanemason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as a side note, I think (opinion) that people
> that eat processed foods - especially meat - are
> often dosed with at least mild doses of food
> poisoning. It's usually only enough to caused the
> runs.....mild fever....upset
> stomach.....headache......but people become
> accustomed to it....and don't notice it....and
> (like myself) can often develop IBS or other
> digestive problems. Its something that generally
> disappears completely when on a high-raw diet.
> That's why I'm always critical of reports of food
> poisoning or e-coli from spinach or other produce.
> It is often animal products which are
> contaminating the produce!
>
> So: fresh produce is ok. Anything else that is
> just sitting wet at room temperature should be
> consumed quickly - and carefully smelled for signs
> of fermentation or decay.
>
> -David Z. Mason

I feel I have proof positive of your statements, David;

Years ago, when I did eat processed foods/meat/dairy, I would get very sick about twice a year, (or more frequent) typical flu-like symptoms. This would happen every year without fail. I would trot off to the dr., get the script, the whole bit.

I really used to dread that time, as I would feel so horrible, take about a week off from work, I mean I was really out of it.

But now, being a raw foodist, I haven't had that illness once since then. The proof pretty much speaks for itself, I feel. many, if not all folks that suffer from the "flu" are probably inflicted with nothing more than good old food poisoning.

The only thing I would say in contrast to your statement about the cross contamination of the produce; I would agree with that, but also add -

There is the thought that migrant workers/others who toil in the fields for 12+ hrs. a day with no breaks - are taking "bathroom breaks" (to put it cleanly)

right there in the field among/on the produce & that is responsible for at least some of the contamination. It is a gross, disgusting occurrence, & the produce is "supposed" to be washed...but who knows...

Ahem, there are two kinds of food poisoning: from pathogens in soil or around soil(this can affect fresh produce), and pathogens in filthy meat that has not been cooked sufficiently long enough, at a high enough temp, and handled cleanly afterward, to kill the inherent pathogens and keep them dead. Sometimes, these are different forms of the same microbe: E. coli from badly butchered steak served rare,and E. coli from baby salad spinach that has been @#$%& on by migrant workers, for example. Sometimes no: botulinum toxin is chiefly found in soil around plants and is not found in animal muscle tissue, for example. Most cooked food eaters that get the symptoms you fellows are describing, above, have eaten food that wasn't clean when uncooked, wasn't cooked thoroughly, and then wasn't served hot enough, or chilled enough; whichever applies, to ensure that nasty food-borne pathogens were destroyed, that is, that the hardiest cells of these did not remain viable at service. If so, upon entering your warm tummy--ATTACK!

IMO, native soil-based pathogens, though potentially deadly--they have evolved to kill large organisms--are not as deadly as those from agricultural waste(human or animal) or the world of parasites. It is very difficult, for instance, to survive an E. coli infection withought intervention because the extrinsic infection symbiotically reacts with intrinsic stores of E.coli in our intestines and goes on a rampage. And don't even get me started on trichinosis. Also, I don't think it matters whether one is cooked or raw: if one eats raw animal products, one runs a far greater risk, if they be contaminated, of contracting large numbers of pathogens and of course, parasites, than does someone who eschews animal products. No matter what those videos on YouTube say.

Basically, as long as there isn't @#$%& from any species on your lettuce or blueberries, and you are using hot water to wash your dishes, you should be OK.

"as long as there isn't @#$%& from any species on your lettuce or blueberries"

my sister ate food straight from her garden and got a nasty, nasty, horrible parasite from her lovely organic veggies. I wash it all and am careful washing dishes as well.

as for storing foods, freezing and drying are the only ways i know of keeping raw foods for any length of time.

Coco, I agree with you. I wash ALL my produce carefully with soap or sprayed with peroxide, depending on the product before using anything raw. Even if it is something that I peel before using (including ORGANIC), I always wash it very well before cutting into it or peeling it. But I agree with you as well about long-term storage. Aside from refrigeration, the only safe way for long-term storage is definitely drying or freezing..... if you don't want to go through the canning (cooking) route.

*****************************
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson

Sherdoc, there is absolutely no reason to can or 'heat' (i.e. kill) veggiekraut. Read this website:
[www.wildfermentation.com]

All you need is good quality salt, and a tight seal in order to keep good, live veggiekraut in a cool place for possibly even years--certainly the winter. You can also just put the whole jar into the fridge, sealed, after you've judged that it has fully fermented.

I don't wash things from my own garden unless I feel I have a reason to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/17/2009 02:59AM by lilikoi's lament.