sorry, salute...

This thread is craptacular!

salute GW? Sorry poetree, that went over my head then I thought JC, no GW is Global Warming, slaps head, but as all things work for good I do salute with you the first American president, George Washington.

i always thought salute meant hello or goodbye

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Thank u, we salute Former 1st President George Washington. Being the top shelf people that u r, u can get what u want...

poetree

I took the George Washington quote to mean that American Christians are willing to fight and die for their freedom, and that this was unique and something to be proud of.

But what does Christianity really have to do with armed revolution?

Tyranny is wrong, but do we know for sure that Jesus would sanction the cause of violence against tyranny?

Wasn't Jesus a pacifist, and didn't Jesus teach us to "turn the other cheek"? Jesus never took up arms against the severe oppression of the Roman government. Do we have any reason to believe that Jesus would have taken up arms against the English? After all, the English weren't so bad, compared to the Romans.

The American colonists suffered from "taxation without representation". This was a crime to be sure, but think of what Jesus's people suffered. At one point, Herod ordered the killing of "all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under..." (Matthew 2:16)

My direct ancestors fought in the American Revolution. I was raised to be proud of my patriot heritage, and I honor all those who are courageous enough to fight and die for what they truly believe in.

But I don't believe there's anything holy or Christian about it. I believe that whenever conflict can be resolved without violence, this is truly in keeeping with Christianity (the way of Christ).

(I really hope no one is offended. This is simply intended as another point of view from a firm believer in the teachings of Christ).

suncloud,

Those are some very good recollections that you've brought out as well as your opinions. God bless your wisdom!

poetree

Thanks poetree. You have made my day.

No offence taken or intended suncloud, but the pride in the words incorrectly attributed to George Washington is what raises doubts of their authenticity, in my opinion. Here they are once more --

“The thing that sets the American Christian apart from all other people in the world is that he would rather die on his feet before he will live on his knees.”

How could anyone know American Christians are apart from "all other people in the world" in their willingness to die for their freedom? Then why would Washington, baptised in the Church of England with strong associations between kneeling in prayer and reverence for God, turn around and belittle those who "live on their knees"?

The Mexican hero, Emiliano Zapata Salazar, might take exception for the same reason having the following words attributed to him --

"It's better to die upon your feet than to live upon your knees!"

Zapata fought for predominently Catholic Mexico under the slogan, Land and Liberty, and might have cringed at the choice of words (live upon their knees) in the above quote, the act of kneeling so associated with reverence for God.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2009 07:22PM by loeve.

hmmmm i read it completely different ... there used to be a saying .. bring them to their knees ... like to beat someone down, so thats how *I* read the quote ... i didnt associate the live upon your knees to mean anything religious at all ... i actually thought it meant simply die on your feet - or be beaten down to your knees

lol maybe we read too much into things .. only george washington probably knows what he *really* meant by saying that

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Yes, being beaten to one's knees seems to be the author's, whoever wrote it )P , meaning. When I see a quote that uses the words 'Christian' and 'live on his knees' I see both the 'beaten to his knees' meaning and a second meaning which is a critique of the American Christian who may be so proud and gungho so as to forget that their may be a peaceful solution if they just kneel down and pray about it, similar to suncloud's point about turning the other cheek and finding a nonviolent solution. I always thought Plainlydressed was bashing *prideful* American Christians with that quote, coming from a background of Christians who kneel in prayer as I do.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2009 09:01PM by loeve.

Raw Seeker Wrote:
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> This thread is craptacular!

This is true.

Dolores Ibárruri, Spanish leader in the Spanish Civil War, is quoted in this 1936 article --

Better Die Standing, Than Live Kneeling!
From the Marxist Internet Archive

"People of democratic Spain, people who are fighting for the liberty and rights of man!"—thundered the voice of Pasionaria, "the whole Spanish people—socialists, communists and anarchists alike— have taken up arms against the fascist revolt. Fascism shall not pass! "Better die standing, than live kneeling!"

[www.marxists.org]

loeve Wrote:
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> ... Fascism shall not pass! "Better
> die standing, than live kneeling!"
>

Well, there had to be an explanation why "Better die standing, than live kneeling!" is in quotes. It's a quote from Pericles, the Greek statesman (c. 495-429 BC).

[www.helleniccomserve.com]

Loeve, no offense taken at all. I have no idea whether George Washington ever said this or not, but I really enjoyed reading all those great quotes on your link!

Think of all the potential vitality wasted arguing about George Washington. If a supernatural heaven exists where "souls" go when they die I'm sure ol' Georgie is getting quite a laugh out of all this!

"We do not say that a man who takes no interest in politics minds his own business. We say he has no business here at all."--Pericles