Are there any nutritional considerations to be aware of when eating a higher percentage of vegetables than fruits? I eat two to three servings of (sugary) fruits a day and the rest of my consumption consists of vegetables, nuts/oils, and non-sugary fruits like avocados, zucchini, etc. along with several supplements.

Many people find it hard to get enough calories on a more-veg-less-fruit diet, or else they depend heavily on fats. There's no real consensus on how important carb/protein/fat balance is on a raw diet, so you are free to decide how worried to be.

If you're having negative reactions to large amounts of fruit, then it makes sense to experiment. Another possibility might be to simplify your fruit meals. Fruit digests best on an empty stomach, so you may have better luck eating a simple fruit-only breakfast.

You should definitely feel free to try different things, and try to notice patterns in your body's reactions.

Thanks, Frances. I haven't had a bad reaction to anything. I just don't like fruit as much as veg. I never have. The only two fruits I would eat as a kid were apples and watermelon. However, I've never run into a vegetable I don't like.

Yes, watch out for eating too much fat when you cut back on fruit. You can use a nutritional calculator like fitday, nutritiondata, nutridiary, or Cron-o-Meter to see what your fat intake is.

40% fat intake is very high fat.
30% fat intake is high fat
20% intake is moderate fat
10% intake is low fat
5% intake is very low fat

I hear you, veghunter, you eat more veggies than fruits, simple as that. Whether fruits or veggies it's still possible to be deficient in micronutrients, for instance land plants don't need iodine, humans do and so it's good to run the numbers. I eat about one raw potato a day, sweet potatoes, lots of carrots, greens, seaweed and take supplements as well.

Thanks, Bryan. I do keep track of my diet with Nutrient Data and a spread sheet. I get about 50 grams of fat a day, 16 of those from my omega-3 supplement. Why do you think an excess of raw fat is bad? I've always heard that it's animal, trans-, and cooked fats that are bad, but that you can't get too much raw fat.

Thanks, loeve. Are there any fruits high in iodine? I'd only heard that about sea vegetables. The dulse supplement I use for my pets (and occasionally myself) has 150% the RDA in just a few drops.

That is a myth, the part about not getting too much raw fat. The biggest reason people leave the raw diet, that is, that people get sick on the raw diet, is too much fat consumption.

How many calories total do you eat in a day? Because 50 grams of fat is 450 calories. If you are eating 1000 calories, this is 50% fat, at 1500 calories this is 35% fat, and at 2000 calories this is 27.5% fat.

My guess is your caloric intake is around 1000 calories since you only eat 3 servings of fruit a day.

veghunter,
By saying "land plants" do not need iodine, that is to say all land plants whether they be classified as fruiting plants, veggies, nut or seed bearing. Plants take up iodine passively, I believe, which means if it is in the soil it will be taken up by the roots or may be absorbed by the leaves out of the air or by being splashed onto the plant like b12 can be. It depends on how close it grows to the sea, maybe wind patterns and whether iodine is in the soil. Iodine evaporates from the sea and comes to earth in the rain and dew. Lucky pets!

I have lots of weight that I haven't been able to shift because of some medical problems. So, I'm aiming for 1200 calories/day, but consistently falling short of that goal and hitting 1400 - 1500.

I'm taking so much fat in the form of omega-3's in part because of strong fat cravings, which weren't satisfied with avocado, nuts and seeds, or olive oil. My D.O. suggested that I continue to up the fat supplements until the cravings stopped and that I can cut back when it starts to feel like too much fat.

So far, it doesn't feel like too much. I can feel within hours of skipping a dose that my skin goes dry. In fact, that's one of the questions I was going to ask. How do people keep their skin from being dry on a low-fat raw diet?

Quote

Iodine evaporates from the sea and comes to earth in the rain and dew.

I'm not sure about that because evaporation is a distillation process and distilling water leaves the stuff in the water behind. Anyone have any thoughts or info about this ?

Sure, as far as how iodine evaporates from the sea--

Emission of Iodine From the Sea Surface in the Presence of Ozone

Emission of Iodine From the Sea Surface in the Presence of Ozone
J. A. Garland

Environmental and Medical Sciences Division, AERE, Harwell, Oxfordshire OX11 ORA England

Hilary Curtis

Trinity College, Cambridge CB2 ITQ England

Iodine-132 was used as a tracer to demonstrate that ozone causes iodine vapor to be released from the sea surface. This rate of release was porportional to ozone concentration in the range 0–100 ppb and depended on mixing of the water phase. At the mean ozone concentration existing at the sea surface the rate of iodine release was equivalent to an annual contribution of 6 to 12 × 10 (10th)g to the atmosphere. This estimate is subject to uncertainties arising from inadequate knowledge of the mean concentration of iodide at the sea surface and the effect of mixing of the surface sea water on the rate of release of iodine. The significance of such a contribution to the iodine budget of the atmosphere is discussed.

[www.agu.org]

There are maps on line showing the disposition of iodine along some coastal waters where the concentration of iodine in the soil has been studied. I think they did one in Ireland.

veghunter,

You are carrying excess weight, you say, but your skin becomes dry almost immediately upon missing an omega supplement. Has your doctor done a full metabolic panel, and/or explained what could be causing such an acute adverse response to inconstant liquid fat intake? There must be an explanation for why your body craves fat incessantly.

Also, in case Bryan doesn't chime in about this: calorie restriction on raw isn't necessary, as the metabolism tends to adjust to a biologically appropriate diet easily and to metabolize nutrients effectively. The thing to keep an eye on is that the ratios of macronutrients aren't too off. For me, the amount of fat that you are eating in comparison to carbohydrates would be a bad idea. For you, it is apparently optimum, at least for now.

Thanks, Tamhuka.

My doctor has run a metabolic profile and many other tests. Without going into too much detail, the items that them metabolic panel measure are all normal, the metabolite profile is normal, the hormones are largely wonky. I never asked about the cause of such a need for fat. She did hint at a slightly elevated CRP indicating a small amount of general inflammation in the body, which might be eased by an increase in omega 3's.

I tried raw about 2 years ago without restricting my calories, although not vegan raw (I ate one raw egg yolk a day). The first month I had great results. I lost 4 lbs., had better skin, more energy, and so on. The next month I gained 8 lbs and felt sluggish. Thinking that I had cheated more than I realized, I went back to 100% and gained a few more pounds the next month and still felt sluggish. I quit.

I'm hoping things go better this time around, but I don't want to do anything damaging to my health.

My skin looks so fresh and pretty on a low fat high fruit diet. Really. People assume that fat intake somehow will hydrate them, but fresh fruits, NOT dried nuts and processed oils, are great for the skin and body. You need water and carbs from fruit ideally. Can you try to up your fruit intake slowly or just do citrus? Do you like grapes? SOMETHING? I can't imagine eating that limited amount, number one; and number two, it being mostly fats, which are not satiating like fruit is. :/

I feel for you. I hope you can do better this time around!

> ...I do keep track of my diet with
> Nutrient Data and a spread sheet...

...
> iodine? I'd only heard that about sea vegetables.
> The dulse supplement I use for my pets (and
> occasionally myself) has 150% the RDA in just a
> few drops.

veghunter,
Did you notice that Nutrient Data does not track iodine in foods?
[pubsearch.arsnet.usda.gov]

It's the same with Nutritiondata.com. They don't list iodine. I think it's because iodine content of foods depends on the region where they are grown. In Ireland and the UK dairy often has iodine added. In much of the world there's iodized salt but according to the World Health Organization 13% of the world population is iodine deficient and another 30% are at risk. Good for you for being on top of it.

veghunter,

Considering your elevated CRP, it's probably good that you are supplementing with an omega 3 now.

I asked about a metabolic panel because I am wondering whether your liver is functioning properly. You needn't answer this explicitly, of course, as it's just me nosily musing(I do that). Continuing, I am curious: you say that 2 years ago, you tried nonvegan raw and initially responded well to the regimen, but subsequently started gaining weight and feeling sluggish, even after attempting 100% raw. Was the raw regimen you were on consistent that whole time? And what was it, high fruit? High greens? High fat? Modified Weston Price? It is a strange thing that your metabolism should have reversed course so abruptly, all things being equal. Maybe the inflammation had something to do with it . . . Or maybe it is an iodine problem; this would explain, partly anyway, hormone descrepancies.

Thanks, everyone for being so kind and helpful.

Utopian Life, I think I might have given the wrong impression. I have trained myself over the years to tolerate a variety of fruits. The two to three servings of fruits I eat aren't just apples and watermelon. I consume strawberries, raspberries, bananas, oranges, pineapples, mangoes, honeydews, pears, peaches, and many other fruits as part of that two to three servings. I just don't have a sweet tooth.

Loeve, thanks for all the bringing the info on iodine to my attention. I did notice it's not a tracked nutrient. I have always thought that was because of the prevalence of iodized salt in the US, which many consume too much of, but maybe it is because of the high variability.

Tamukha, thanks for the concern and advice.

My diet prior to starting any of the raw stuff would probably be considered a modified Weston Price simply because I lived with my elderly European grandparents who by tradition ate very close to what Sally Fallon recommends.

But, when I started raw, I started following the Wai Diet.

I'd typically have something along the lines of fruit salad in the morning, avocado with tomato and onion for lunch, orange juice with egg yolk for mid-afternoon snack, green salad with olive oil for dinner, banana and nuts before bed. I'd also squeeze lemon in warm water to sip throughout the day. I have no idea the calories since I just ate to fullness.

I'm not really shy as I probably should be about posting medical stuff online. My liver enzymes are all normal. I had an adrenal MRI, which by default shows the liver as well and there is no evidence of fatty liver, cysts, or enlargement. I have been taking milk thistle on and off for over a year. I don't think it's the liver.

I also don't think it's an iodine is a problem because I've had various thyroid tests over the last four years and they're all normal.

What I do have is very low estrogen, SHBG, vit D, ferritin, DHEA-S, etc. and tons of awful symptoms from weight gain and buffalo hump to (b)acne and toe fungus. I have a diagnosis of PCOS, but the endo who diagnosed this is suspicious of other disease.

Thanks again for all of the input. I really never thought to wonder why I would want more fat eating raw than I do eating cooked. You've got me thinking.

I don't eat for my tooth, either. I eat for my body.

Hi veghunter. I think you're receiving some very good advice!

Some added thoughts:

Both fruits and fats are high-energy foods. Your body has to get energy from somewhere. It's possible that since you're not eating much fruits, your body is craving an excess of fats (for energy). More fruit in the diet may lead to less craving for fats.

Being well-hydrated is important for avoiding dry skin, and fruits provide excellent hydration, among other things.

Do you like cucumbers? Cucumbers are fruits. There may be other fruits that you could develop a taste for.

More exercise will definitely help you lose more weight; and since fruits are such a good energy source, your body will enjoy them so much more if you are exercising. More fruits, more exercise, less fats: this could help provide a synergy that will enable your weight to drop much more easily, and make you stronger too!

Exercise is also important for improving skin tone and for perspiring out toxins from the pores of the skin.

In my experience, whole raw vegan fat sources (nuts/sees/avos/coco/etc.) are important, and they provide a concentrated source of essential nutrients other than just fat. But it seems best not to overdo it. I personally prefer somewhere between low to moderate on the fat scale offered by Bryan above. Too much and I feel sluggish. Too little and I feel hungry no matter how much other stuff I eat.

With a good variety of raw vegan foods - plus exercise - you will find that you can eat more food and still attain a healthy weight. One reason I like eating only raw food (plus exercising) is that I can eat more food. (I love food.)




.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2010 08:15PM by suncloud.

veghunter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hitting 1400 - 1500.
>
> I'm taking so much fat in the form of omega-3's in
> part because of strong fat cravings, which weren't
> satisfied with avocado, nuts and seeds, or olive
> oil. My D.O. suggested that I continue to up the
> fat supplements until the cravings stopped and
> that I can cut back when it starts to feel like
> too much fat.
...

veghunter,
Eating 1400-1500 calories a day including 200g fats puts you around 31% of calories from fats, which is right in the middle of what raw vegans are typically eating if you look at studies like the Giessen Germany raw food study where a pool of 43 raw vegans ranged 20 to 45% calories from fat, and much of your intake is omega 3's which is excellent. The Geissen group had pretty good blood numbers--

"However, to our knowledge, there have been no other reports of such extremely low triglyceride and total cholesterol levels. Nevertheless, despite the negative trend for total and LDL cholesterol with increasing proportions of raw food, the total:HDL and LDL:HDL cholesterol ratios and the triglyceride levels were not associated with the amount of raw food consumed or the variant of the raw food diet. Thus, consumption of greater amounts of raw food did not improve the LDL:HDL cholesterol ratio. These results indicate that an extremely high consumption of raw food does not positively affect lipid profiles. Moreover, 46% of raw food dieters had low HDL cholesterol; in fact, those concentrations were lowest in the group of participants who ate the greatest amount of raw food."

[jn.nutrition.org]

A study of 43 people is very limited.

I agree with SunCloud, start your day by eating more fruit. This might help with fat cravings.

david

Suncloud- your post is spot on!

veghunter - I do not wish to criticise you, only help. In fact, there are special nutritional considerations for you to be aware of. I generally recomend no more than 10grams of fat per 1000 cal of food consumed.

1) Do you get strenuous exercise everyday? Trust me, if you get a healthy dose of exercise, your body will crave sugar. (which is what our bodies run on, no matter what you eat!, so you may as well give it what it wants). If you dont exercise than you can never really expect to be fully balanced and healthy. Once you exercise more, and provide enough calories in the form of sugar, fat cravings will decrease.

2)An excess of any type of fat is bad, raw or cooked! Raw fat is healthier because it hasn't developed toxic residue from the cooking process. Excess fat in the blood reducess celular respiration (bad!). It efectively reduces the bodies ability to process sugar (the very thing your body runs on). And to much sugar and fat at the same time is not good. Personally, Ive noticed the only time I can eat high fruit is when Im eating low fat, or else it is intollerable.

3) If your skin goes dry, then I would be willing to bet its time for some clensing. Drink water! Maybee your glands and organs need flushing.

4) Excess fatty foods are going to cause your diet to be acid forming. Unless you eat the equivalent of 3 bunches of greens per day to offset, I would expect yours to be acid forming. This is not a species specific diet. This may explian the inflamtion. Any higher fat percentage than in the mid teens, starts to comprimise your bodies ability to function, therefore anything above 20%, I would consider high fat:

As far as I see it you have 5 options to obtain calories:
a)low fat + high fruit = Good (this diet is optimal)
b)low fat + high starch = inflamation, acid toxemia (this diet is acceptable in short duration)
c)high fat + high fruit = blood sugar problems, glandular imbalances (this diet is not sustainable)
d)high fat + high starch = bad digestion, tiredness, poor health, glandular imbalance, etc etc (this diet is not sustainable)
e)high fat + low carb(sugar or startch) = poor vitality, low energy, Too acidic(this diet is not sustainable)

Im sorry but I cant see your diet working long term. However if your current diet is some type of a transition from SAD to raw then I think your doing well. I think the key you need is exercise. Exercise regularly, and your body will slowly lead you where you need to go. Good Luck



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2010 03:46PM by WorkoutMan.

"A study of 43 people is very limited."

Well, they studied 201 70% plus raw fooders (43 were raw vegans) and referenced other smaller studies such as one in Finland to help draw some conclusions. The 201 raw fooders in this Giessen study ate between 19% and 58% of their calories from fat--

"We investigated the effects of an extremely high dietary intake of raw vegetables and fruits (70–100% raw food) on serum lipids and plasma vitamin B-12, folate, and total homocysteine (tHcy). In a cross-sectional study, the lipid, folate, vitamin B-12, and tHcy status of 201 adherents to a raw food diet (94 men and 107 women) were examined. The participants consumed 1500–1800 g raw food of plant origin/d mainly as vegetables or fruits. Of the participants, 14% had high serum LDL cholesterol concentrations, 46% had low serum HDL cholesterol, and none had high triglycerides."

[jn.nutrition.org]

None of the 201 participants had high triglycerides.

So much feedback. This is awesome! Let me see if I have this straight, the nutritional considerations that have been raised so far are:

- Too much fat in the diet  which could put me off a raw diet and acidify the blood?
               * If I got hungry couldn’t I just eat more? I’m feeling less hungry than I have on some higher calorie diets.
               * Why would a higher proportion of alkaline veg rather than acidifying fruit make my blood more acid?
-Lack of iodine?
                * Can be easily compensated for by seaweed, right?
-Too few calories which could cause excess weight loss?
               * This is not my experience so far.  If it ever were, couldn’t I just eat more?

I don’t have cancer, but I noticed in the cancer threads that more veg and less fruit was suggested pretty much across the board. Why would this help cancer patients and not the rest of us? Wouldn’t anything that would make this undesirable for the general population make this bad for those with cancer? I’m sorry I’m so thick, there just seems to be a disconnect for me.

Suncloud,
I’ll definitely try drinking more water.

As I said, I do eat cucumbers and many varieties of non-sugary fruits. That’s not a problem.

Rigorous exercise isn’t possible at this point. It hasn’t been for over a decade. I just started yoga again because I finally found exercises I can do. Most of the beginning programs that I’ve encountered are waaaaaay too hard. I do 30 – 60 minutes twice a day, but much of it is lying on the ground in various positions in breathing. That’s about the extent of what I can do right now.

Workout Man,
Thanks for the advice, but I don’t really get what you’re saying. Fruits are acidifying and vegetables, greens in particular, alkalizing. So, how does eating a higher proportion of vegetables to fruits acidify the blood? Do you have a link to something that explains this process? Why wouldn’t a bit of lemon, cider vinegar, or bicarbonate in water counter acidification?

Also, I used to run 10 miles/day in college. At that time I ate an omnivore diet, but kept my fat around 20% of my calories. I did not like high sugar then. I don’t see that this would help me eat more fruit.

I will try drinking more water.

Loeve,
Thanks for the info on the effect of diet on blood lipids and the alternate view point. Unfortunately, it has me a bit worried now. I’m not really concerned with CVD and I don’t really want lower cholesterol. My cholesterol already runs in the 140s with acceptably low LDL and triglycerides, but my HDL is just barely hanging in there.

veghunter,
The Giessen study was meant as comfort for you since their macronutrient ratios are comparable to your own, and the study concludes these raw fooders had low triglycerides and low risk of CVD as explained in their Discussion, though B12 status was a concern since many got none in their diet which is a risk factor in itself, though I'm sure you're on top of that like you are with iodine... Years ago as a lacto vegetarian my total cholesterol was 93 with HDL of 36 which my doctor said was good, but I think maybe a bit low. Later I tested at 140. No worries.

By the way, if you haven't visited our "Other Health Related" section, there's a recent thread on athlete's foot. Foot fungus leaves toxic waste which can cause an inflamatory response, which I believe you mentioned above regarding a blood test. Please stop by



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2010 01:04AM by loeve.

Thanks, Loeve! Glad to hear about the cholesterol.

I found the foot fungus thread. I may try soaking in salts, too.

Oh, good. I soaked my feet in warm very salty water for a few weeks and it worked great. I felt pampered! Though at first my feet were slightly more tender when the foot fungus was dying off. One thing I didn't mention is I don't rinse off after with fresh water. I just dry my feet and leave the trace of salt on the skin, and am not sure if that's significant.

veghunter,

As to two points you make above:

Cancer is a sugar dependent disorder, so high greens is better than high fruit in an actively cancerous state. This does not apply to other sugar dependent disorders where fat is limited; the limiting of fat in a cancerous condition does not appear to inhibit cancer cells' ability to capture free sugar as it does in candidiasis, for example.

Fruits are not acidifying. Some fruits are acidic prior to digestion but raise pH after digestion. There are a few that are not, but raw ripe fruits are invariably less acidifying in the body than a hunk of meat, say. Vegetables tend to be more immediately alkalizing because of their chlorophyll content.

Exactly - fruits are NOT acidifying.