For those of you that don't get e-mails from The Fresh Network I thought this might be of interest

[fresh-network.typepad.com]

This was very interesting. I found particularily intriguing Dr. Fred Bisci's remarks about having people tested before they go raw. I myself have found that it's probably not a good idea to embark on a really restrictive dietary regimen when severe deficiencies are present. Perhaps this is what's happening with those that have moved away from strict veganism--they started out raw lacking important nutrients and the raw they've been doing hasn't corrected those deficiencies?

Thanks for posting.

It's interesting, but there are millions of non-raw vegans who do live very healthfully -- Dr. John McDougall (www.drmcdougall.com) addresses deficiency concerns with real science, and is worth checking out. Logically, the issue can only be about veganism; the raw aspect is secondary, which is not to discount the fabulous benefits of raw eating.

Dr. Mcdougall argues that the _only_ supplement vegans need to possibly be concerned with is B12.

Here is some of his writing on B12:

[www.drmcdougall.com]

Thanks for the link.
I liked the way the article presented a variety of different opinions from what appeared to me to be an unbiased perspective.

Yes it is interesting isn't it. Often we are told that raw fooders who eat a lot of high fat foods and other questionable foods like cacoa will fail in the end.

Doug Graham steers well clear of those foods and states that his low fat, high fruit diet is still serving him well. Shazzie and Holly have always been big fans of raw chocolate and all kinds of other superfoods and I wonder, if you fill yourself up on stuff like that, maybe you just don't eat sufficient amounts and varieties of essential greens and fruit.

I am glad that I don't have the responsibility of bring up children on a raw vegan diet because it is so difficult to work out who's right. Also some deficiencies will only show up after several years and this of course is not great particularly with children.

I'm so interested in this question of what is 'natural' for us to eat - Re your post Workout Man.

I think it is really important for long term raw fooders to document their diet and health and share it- there is so little information out there really. And of course as was stated in the article - some people say they are vegan when really they are slipping in, albeit tiny amounts, of animal product. It might be so small and infrequent that they scarcely count it - does this make a difference? Is it what's needed to prevent deficiencies and if so what.

I find this article throws up far more questions than it answers and I look forward to hearing some more people's thoughts



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2010 06:27PM by flipperjan.

Quote

I am glad that I don't have the responsibility of bring up children on a raw vegan diet because it is so difficult to work out who's right

After researching a topic I think about it and then I make a decision and go with it and only change direction if I find a reason to rethink it.

flipperjan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For those of you that don't get e-mails from The
> Fresh Network I thought this might be of interest
>
> [fresh-network.typepad.com]
> g/2010/01/the-rise-of-raw-but-not-vegan.html#more


Thanks. I think that it should be pointed out that since we no longer live in a state of nature, if there is a need to supplement (and I believe there is), it doesn't necessarily argue against what a raw vegan diet might have provided under a state of nature (re: B-12, Omega 3s, Vitamin D, etc).

I also think that what is "natural" for us maybe different that what is optimal or healthy for us keeping in mind that natural selection works to ensure survival of the species not survival of an individual in the species. And that difference is critical. Remember the parable of Ross's Rats (see Walford, 120 Year Diet).

Paul

He does say -

"Fred Bisci is a nutritionist and food scientist. He has been following a raw diet for over 40 years. He is vegan and believes a raw vegan diet can be the healthiest way to eat if people do it correctly, which means monitoring their nutrient levels and supplementing where necessary."


So it would seem to me that he is still on board with it if you do it correctly, which in his opinion means monitoring their nutrient levels and supplementing where necessary.


I didn't read the entire article so I don't know his complete position on it - And, what is his response in regards to consuming cooked food & leukocytosis?

[www.rawfoodinfo.com]

No jumping ship here, I am RAW for life...

This is really an important topic.

I've experienced deficiencies, and, so far, been able to overcome them. I've been a raw food vegan for over 23 years.

My approach is to try to eat the food that makes me feel best, do the research necessary to know that I'm getting enough of foods the nutrients I need, supplement with B12, and get an adequate amount of sunshine (Vitamin D) and exercise.

One thing I feel I've learned is not to base my nutrition decisions on an ideology or some ideal of what I assume nature should be.

In my experience being raw and vegan is not an automatic pass into adequate nutrition, even if a person eats mega-amounts of fruits and vegetables. Some attention really does have to be paid to getting enough of the micronutrients, especially iron, calcium, zinc, vit. E, Vit A, and also the EFAs.

Staying raw and staying healthy might require foregoing some of the more extreme versions of a raw food diet, except possibly on a temporary short-term basis.

So many people would love to never eat nuts or seeds or sprouted grains or seaweeds or algaes or whatever. It's easy to see why that is. Restrictive raw food diets (all fruit for example) are often capable of bringing about almost immediate noticeable short-term results for many people! But after a month or maybe several months, hunger returns in full force. People often end up either gorging on fats or going back to cooked food and even animal products.

Too often, the person blames him/herself for lack of willpower; when actually, the body may be trying to tell us something!

Maybe we should listen, do the research and make sure we're getting enough of everything we need. I agree that lots of fruit is OK, but I just don't agree that so many other raw vegan foods are not OK. I think that belief can get us into trouble when trying to sustain a raw food diet.

Definitely, some raw foods are best taken in moderation, and definitely, a restricted raw food diet can be advantageous temporarily, in the short term. But if our diet isn't working for us on a steady basis, then instead of blaming our willpower, and trying to go back to the same thing over and over again (while expecting/hoping for a different result), it may be time to advance our learning experience to include the knowledge of how to eat what we need.

In addition, exercise plays a huge part in how we feel when we eat, and without it, we can't really judge fairly the advantages of eating all the varieties of all the wonderful raw vegan foods available to us.

What a shame, if 10 years from now there are multitudes of people who tried raw, couldn't live up to what they thought the raw ideal should be, and ended up telling all who would listen that the raw food vegan diet simply doesn't work. What a shame that would be!

"One thing I feel I've learned is not to base my nutrition decisions on an ideology or some ideal of what I assume nature should be."

Very well said Suncloud. Actually, I think the whole post was great, thanks!

Hows the photography going?

funny i dont see it as *the strait and narrow* i see it more as a meandering journey with all sorts of twists and turns , variating from narrow paths to wide open spaces.

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

This is a vegan forum. I am in the process of deleting messages that go something like this: the reason I need to eat some animal product is because of XYZ.

The thing of interest for me when I read about raw vegans who need to eat cooked foods or animal products to restore their health is the following: I examine their diets and see what they are doing, so that I don't make the same mistakes they did.

Like flipperjan mentioned above - some people leaving raw veganism are low fruit high fat folk, with lots of superfoods. Well its no big surprise to me that those diets didn't work for these raw leaders, since when I ate like that, it didn't work for me either. Fortunately for me, I found an alternative to eating animal products or cooked foods to attain excellent health.

There are other raw vegan diets that the proponents even admit that no more than 80% of your diet ought to be their raw food choices --- the rest of the diet ought to contain cooked starches and vegetables.

Quote

This is a vegan forum. I am in the process of deleting messages that go something like this: the reason I need to eat some animal product is because of XYZ.

I'm sorry to see that is how it is handled. I actually enjoy reading the about the different experiences and struggles people have keeping raw and vegan and the counter as to why something might or might not work. It alerts me to what might or might not be missing in a diet, how to determine it, and how to correct it.

Suncloud

I love your post - and with 23 years of experience it's just the sort of thing I want to be reading and learning from - thank you.

Jgunn - I agree that the path is wide and meandering but I think it might easily feel narrow and restrictive if one is really craving a 'forbidden' food. It all depends on ones reasons for including or avoiding a food. If it is done with passion and from the heart then it is an easy choice to make but if it is done with the words 'I ought' or 'I should' then it is always going to be a battle I think.

I liked this quote from Shazzie:

"I have spoken to many of the raw foodists who are turning to animal products, and the general consensus is they never had vegan ethics before going into raw food, it’s just that some people were shouting so loud about raw veganism that it appealed to their ideals of purification and detoxification at the time."

Vegans who go vegan via the ethical route are usually more exposed to B12/zinc/iron/vit D info by forums, the Vegan Society and books/cook books etc.

It must be hard for non-vegans going into raw veganism to work out the best balance for their bodies when they're being bombarded with photos of (albeit beautiful) high fat raw gourmet food and the response 'you're going through detox' when they have health problems.

Everyone is different. We don't all live in warm climates with access to a wide range of fresh food and hours of sunshine. Supplements helping someone keep their teeth shouldn't be a big deal, let alone taboo.

communitybuilder> i see where you're coming from, but veganism is bigger than the egg itself generally, I boycott eggs because 1) 'free range' is extremely misleading 2) the idea of containing chickens to take their eggs isn't vegan, and finally, because the idea of eating this THIS just seems wrong.

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is a vegan forum. I am in the process of
> deleting messages that go something like this: the
> reason I need to eat some animal product is
> because of XYZ.


Bryan, usually you are the voice of reason. However, I find it quite offensive that you deleted my post. I am only sharing my ideas and mearly stated the reason why I still choose to eat eggs. I still belive that 100% raw vegan can work long term for many people when the body is clean enough and the individual gets enough sunlight.

I have enjoyed this forum for the last couple years, because the people here are very kind. This forum is named "raw food support", not "vegans only". I don't understand why all ideas concerning health with raw foods are not welcome on this forum. Its a shame when the philosophy of vegan vs. nonvegan, is paramount to health vs. nonhealth. Black and white lines of thinking like that are the reason so many people have no success with raw foods.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2010 03:14PM by WorkoutMan.

I think it is exceptionally interesting to hear various peoples' experiences with various attempts at finding the ideal human diet. Since the jury is still out on what exactly this would be, I think it's fair to have an open and honest debate about all the variables. Otherwise, it's just a cult.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2010 10:39PM by sunshine79.

sunshine79 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > This is a vegan forum. I am in the process of
> > deleting messages that go something like this:
> the
> > reason I need to eat some animal product is
> > because of XYZ.
>
>
>
> This is really stupid. Fascist censorship, quite
> frankly. Are you trying to promote health, or a
> cult?

Bryan,

Hat's off. Hold the line. One goes vegan for a variety of reasons, health, ecology, ethics. This is a raw vegan forum. The groundrules have been made plain when we all joined and we made a commitment in order to post to respect those groundrules. Bryan is simply enforcing those groundrules which I have violated at times and for which I apologize. Point is yeah it is vegan only. It's more vegan only than raw only. But it is a raw vegan support forum above all else. YMMV

Paul

Hi Swimmer,

Thank you for thinking of me. I sent you a PM.

What concerns me is that many people set themselves up as experts or coaches when they have only been raw for a couple of years themselves and sometimes they weren't even vegan before that. It is clearly not long enough to know how they are going to respond long term let alone telling anyone else how to do it.

Thanks bryan for deleting those posts, its a vegan board. I'm sure there are other boards that will accomodate those who want to eat animal products.

david

sunshine79 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it is exceptionally interesting to hear
> various peoples' experiences with various attempts
> at finding the ideal human diet. Since the jury is
> still out on what exactly this would be, I think
> it's fair to have an open and honest debate about
> all the variables. Otherwise, it's just a cult.

sunshine79,
I agree that the jury is still out and that there are variables. Our webmaster, John Kohler, has put together a F.A.Q. [www.living-foods.com] section which defines what a raw foodist is (75% or more raw food) and also puts forward the "all-raw" 100% point of view which he says "depends on the person" whether it is best, not siding with any one definition. John is careful not to describe himself a purist if you follow his discussions. This website also has articles from Tom Billings where Tom writes of some of the excesses in the raw movement.

I can't find your thread on copper toxicity and wanted to ask you if you had explored other ways of getting zinc, you remember we discussed the 8/1 zinc/copper ratio and how difficult it is to get this on a plant food diet. Some might say to cut down on copper rich chocolate, others get more zinc. A doctor talking to a copper poisoned suicidal patient might advise to eat more protein or take zinc... What about zinc on the raw food diet?

flipperjan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What concerns me is that many people set
> themselves up as experts or coaches when they have
> only been raw for a couple of years themselves and
> sometimes they weren't even vegan before that. It
> is clearly not long enough to know how they are
> going to respond long term let alone telling
> anyone else how to do it.

Totally! And also when they say they've been long term raw, sometimes you wonder how much of their raw timeframe was high raw and above. Someone can say they've had 5+ years raw experience, but if that includes constant slip-ups involving cooked food and dairy/meat, just how reliable are their health recommendations? Prior to raw, what kind of health were they in etc?

But the logic behind veganism is to get the nutrients straight from the original source (plants) reather than through the "middle-man" (animals). All nutrients ultimately come from plants and there are many succesful vegan animals.

flipperjan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What concerns me is that many people set
> themselves up as experts or coaches when they have
> only been raw for a couple of years themselves and
> sometimes they weren't even vegan before that. It
> is clearly not long enough to know how they are
> going to respond long term let alone telling
> anyone else how to do it.


Exactly

Actually some didn't even wait a couple of years before setting themselves up as experts in days or weeks of turning raw vegan, with really no understanding or experience


Perhaps the raw food Gurus should have had some experience several years at raw veganism before setting themselves up as raw food gurus.

One I know (not mentioning any names) who has been listed by the fresh network as a leading world expert,

she went round telling everyone they would get severe health problems if they drank milk
is now saying the opposite that you will get severe health problems if you don't drink milk. I think it is amusing but it is also crazy this person is listed as an expert when she didn't do raw food for very long for any substantial period.

I think everyone has just followed suit and copied. It is like chinese whispers

If they were wrong first time the chances are they are wrong this time too so they should think before they start spouting information as fact

.was going to add something then decided not to - for some reason I couldn't delete the post completely. sorry



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2010 04:30PM by flipperjan.

Suncould & Coco, you have expressed important ideas and very nicely, too. As one who has raised free range chickens in the past, I can assure you that these animals have a good, long life. But when I see "free range" on supermarket eggs, I know it's still a mega-farm and I know damn well they get rid of, ie, kill, the hens after their first year of laying. After her first full year of laying an egg a day, she slows down and is no longer useful to the egg producing business. It is indeed a fallen world.

suncloud, do have any pictures you could post?

Why do I love the raw vegan diet? Call it intuition and though I see that our world may not be set up for us to be easily raw vegan, I still want to believe it's possible for anyone it WOULD be beneficial for.

I'm slightly allergic to dairy. I get the mucous buildup and stomach pains if I dont have a tolerance for them. (the mucous always) so much that I have trouble breathing. So that pretty much cancels out dairy. dunno know about raw dairy. actually pretty much anything less than raw vegan upsets me, most likely for phsycological reasons. My WHOLE being wants raw, and when my craving comes in for cooked, or when I simply can't afford raw, and eat cooked, I get the stomach gurgles, because I am so against anything not raw. also, i'm sure that my digestive system could use some enzymes. so i'm transitioning and not going raw overnight.

I dont know what im going to do if i run into deficiencies down the line. as I commented on the fresh network page, I'll ask to be led. Lately, when i've been asking for answers, they've been coming. so i'll use this method. (i ask the universe)bam, point of attraction has met. "where do I find vitamin b 12 as a raw vegan?" bam, I'll ask dr. gabriel cousens. "where do I find all the answers i'll ever ask?" bam, within the universe. you know what i'm sayin? I have confidence that if my DESIRE to find the answer is vibrating within me, it's gonna come.