"The average raw vegan eats around 1700cals a day.."

I guess that explains why peeps dont stay raw and or vegan for very long! No wonder!

Anorexics that Ive mentored average around the 1500cal mark. Who wants to be sitting around all day meditating when we have the world to save by being fit and healthy caloried up vegans/raw vegans and showing people how much this lifestyle rocks..

The people that eat the least, they freak out the most. Just go hang with any runway model, male or female and youll get what Im on about..

Anorexia is characterized by low nutrition intake, NOT low calorie intake, My ex took in under 500 calories a day, and what she DID eat wasnt very nutritious, I was occasionally able to get her to take some supplements to help keep her alive, but it was to little to late...

With the right foods and a few supplements, one can get more than enough nutrition depending on their activity level with even as low as 500-600 calories per day, when Ive been rather inactive I was at 800, ive upped that to around a thousand just within the last week, and plan to up eventually to probably around 1500, Im 180 pounds at 5'8" one cant really say im even close to anorexic,lol... I also get blood tests every 3 months because of a health problem I have which is genetic, and There has been no problems with any of my levels of nutrients till just recently here my B12 levels where a bit low... so im starting a supplement

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

To WY and Flipperjan,

A parting thought on your journeys if you want to practice CR. Remember the 3 most important parts:

1. It's not just caloric restriction, it also glucose restriction and protein restriction, High circulating glucose (> 85) shuts down the SIRT2 anti-aging gene, and high protein (> 70 grams a day) upregulates IGF-1 which stimulates cancer among other things.

2. If you need to lose weight, and you may not, the loss needs to be gradual rather than rapid, not more than a 20 percent caloric restriction roughly 400 calories reduced for an average sized woman and 500 calories for an average sized man.

3. Read McGlothin & Averill's the CR Way. It's a much better summary than Quantum Eating and can easily be adapted to raw vegan.

Best in your journeys.

Paul

durianrider Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The average raw vegan eats around 1700cals a
> day.."
>
> I guess that explains why peeps dont stay raw and
> or vegan for very long! No wonder!
>
> Anorexics that Ive mentored average around the
> 1500cal mark. Who wants to be sitting around all
> day meditating when we have the world to save by
> being fit and healthy caloried up vegans/raw
> vegans and showing people how much this lifestyle
> rocks..
>
> The people that eat the least, they freak out the
> most. Just go hang with any runway model, male or
> female and youll get what Im on about..

You shouldn't label people as anorexic that you don't know. It's a disease that cannot be determined by calorie content alone, and a serious one. Here are the DSM IV factors for diagnosing Anorexia Nervosa. [www.clevelandclinicmeded.com]

I would ask that you stop labeling people with a particular caloric intake as anorexic including the majority of raw vegans according to Melina and Davis. Your caloric intake is higher because you are an endurance athlete. Nothing about these folks makes them anorexic. The average BMI of raw vegans is around 20. That's right in the low healthy range Nothing anorexic about that is there.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2010 03:38PM by pborst.

If someone works on a farm and walks 10 miles a day to look for food - also takes care of the house, tools etc. - that person has to have a little more calories intake. Again, you can only go low on calories if you don't spend too much calories a day. Not only a sports person, but anyone who works a lot during the day needs calories. I don't see how you can work if you don't eat.

If you are a monk at the monastery, and you don't have too much work (some of the monasteries have their own gardens though), I can imagine that you can be on a low calorie restriction.

For me, when I don't eat fruit I feel miserable. Even when I don't eat enough fruit, I am hungry. I even prefer to eat a watermelon than to drink water. The water from watermelon is so much better than ANY water in the world (unless from other fruit).

But, I do understand the CR logic, and I have nothing against their views - it is just not for me. I cannot have such a life to be able to live on low calorie intake. I don't see longevity as a good enough reason for CR, I can only see spiritual, soul motives, a very, very devoted spiritual life as a motive.

In Tonya Zavasta's opening video she cautions about doing CR correctly and that it's not for children of young people, and that starvation is possible if one does not know what they are doing. Zavasta began it at 40 and says it took several years to adapt to the lifestyle.

Zavasta also speaks of CR as simply eating less calories with more optimum nutrition (CRON), nutrition coming first. She seems to be saying in the video that a football player might even practice it by improving nutrition while reducing caloric intake from 5000 calories to 4000.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3. Read McGlothin & Averill's the CR Way. It's a
> much better summary than Quantum Eating and can
> easily be adapted to raw vegan.
I'll order their book.
Tonya Zavasta promises that CR on Raw Foods will make one Beautiful, as well as live longer. I don't think M&A can promise that on cooked foods. From what I've heard of M&A is that they can get very technical.....drawing a certain following.
I prefer Zavasta's approach. She is more personal......WY

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In Tonya Zavasta's opening video she cautions
> about doing CR correctly and that it's not for
> children of young people...

This should say CR is not for children OR young people. That's what Zavasta says in the video.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Zavasta began it at 40 and says it took several
> years to adapt to the lifestyle. Yes, I remember her saying that.

> ......She seems to be saying in
> the video that a football player might even
> practice it by improving nutrition while reducing
> caloric intake from 5000 calories to 4000. How many football players are 100% Raw Vegan? But your point about Calories is well taken. I think we should adapt it to ourselves.....WY

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 3. Read McGlothin & Averill's the CR Way. It's
> a
> > much better summary than Quantum Eating and can
> > easily be adapted to raw vegan.
> I'll order their book.
> Tonya Zavasta promises that CR on Raw Foods will
> make one Beautiful, as well as live longer. I
> don't think M&A can promise that on cooked foods.
> From what I've heard of M&A is that they can get
> very technical.....drawing a certain following.
> I prefer Zavasta's approach. She is more
> personal......WY

WY,

I'd check it out of the library first to see if it can help you. I have both books, read them and don't find M&A that technical at all. Keeping protein moderate, tracking circulating blood glucose, limiting fructose to avoid AGE formation. Pretty straightforward stuff. Now, dry fasting, that can be challenging depending on the period of the fast.

Regarding cooked foods, that's a given. You can easily take their list of foods and eat most of the plant ones raw, same as always.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2010 06:51PM by pborst.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> .......Now, dry
> fasting, that can be challenging depending on the
> period of the fast.
Everyone does it, but for different lengths. I haven't felt the need for an extended Dry Fast since I've been on the Calorie Restriction Diet. I'm very pleased with the way it's going.
Btw Paul....have you done any speaking on the CR approach?.....WY

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
> Btw Paul....have you done any speaking on the CR
> approach?.....WY

No. I am a member of the CR Way Forum however and do participate in their monthly conference calls.

Hi Paul,

You mentioned that M&A includes limiting fructose to avoid AGE formation.

Sorry to be so ignorant, but what is M&A?

And according to M&A, does fructose obtained from eating whole fruits result in AGE formation? Or would that normally occur more often from eating straight fructose (and other processed sugars)? Most whole fruits have a relatively low GI in part due to their fiber content. Would that make a difference in AGE formation?

I eat lots of fruit. In fact, I pretty much try to eat as little of everything but fruit as I can. That's because I seem to be sensitive to higher quantities of just about everything else! I do eat the quantity of other raw foods (nuts/seeds/greens/seaweeds) that satisfies me. It usually doesn't equate to 8-1-1 or CR.

But I'm another person who is interested in what you have to say. I may not entirely agree, but if I don't listen to others, I'll stagnate!

Seems like many of us have different raw diets based on our circumstances. A lot of people couldn't eat the way I eat or follow 8-1-1, because they simply couldn't afford to buy so much fruit (especially organic, which is always best)! I couldn't afford it either; I'm just fortunate to have so much growing where I live.

Diet doesn't have to be one-size-fits-all.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry to be so ignorant, but what is M&A?
McGlothin & Averill....the authors of "The CR Way".
Sorry Paul, but I'll take all the easy questions.....WY

[www.youtube.com]

@ Wheatgrass Yogi. Yeah yeah yeah, leave me the hard questions. j/k.

Suncloud, the question that you ask is a difficult one to answer as the research into this area is limited. No question that high fructose corn syrup and other processed foods lead to AGE formation. The question about whether high fruit intake could lead to increased AGE formation is somewhat novel and in my view untested. I will share with you what limited information there is on the subject.

1. McGlothin and Averill believe that high fruit intake can lead to AGE formation and advise a 10 gram limit on fructose as part of practicing caloric restriction. A medium size banana has about 6 grams. Lower fructose fruits include melons, berries, citrus and kiwi. How M&A picked 10 grams as their proposed limit I don't know. You'd have to ask them.

2. Not much data either way to support or refute fruit intake leading to AGEs. There is a small study done in the Slovak Republic and Germany that does link fruit consumption with AGE formation in vegetarians. [www.biomed.cas.cz] I debated this study with Rawpreston in some length on this thread. [www.rawfoodsupport.com] So, I won't do it again except in Rawpreston's defense since he may not see this thread for some time. He made some very valid points during our exchange. The study is small, too small to extrapolate to the general population. The vegetarians in the study are six years older on average than the omnivores. As you age, your AGE load will increase. And he has other points which I mostly disagree with and that's where we left it.

I think you have to look at the evidence, what little of it there is and make up your own mind. For me and my CR goals, excess fruit consumption would be a serious mistake. The whole "fat vs. sugar" debate that one hears when discussing 80-10-10 is something of a fallacy in that it presents a false either/or choice that most don't practice. In my practicing CR, 80-10-10 is not the type of diet I would want as it is too high in both glucose and fructose to be optimal. We are striving for circulating glucose levels between 70 and 85 and fructose intake limited to 10 grams to avoid AGE formation. Just my opinion. I hope this was helpful

Paul



suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Paul,
>
> You mentioned that M&A includes limiting fructose
> to avoid AGE formation.
>
> Sorry to be so ignorant, but what is M&A?
>
> And according to M&A, does fructose obtained from
> eating whole fruits result in AGE formation? Or
> would that normally occur more often from eating
> straight fructose (and other processed sugars)?
> Most whole fruits have a relatively low GI in part
> due to their fiber content. Would that make a
> difference in AGE formation?
>
> I eat lots of fruit. In fact, I pretty much try
> to eat as little of everything but fruit as I can.
> That's because I seem to be sensitive to higher
> quantities of just about everything else! I do
> eat the quantity of other raw foods
> (nuts/seeds/greens/seaweeds) that satisfies me. It
> usually doesn't equate to 8-1-1 or CR.
>
> But I'm another person who is interested in what
> you have to say. I may not entirely agree, but if
> I don't listen to others, I'll stagnate!
>
> Seems like many of us have different raw diets
> based on our circumstances. A lot of people
> couldn't eat the way I eat or follow 8-1-1,
> because they simply couldn't afford to buy so much
> fruit (especially organic, which is always best)!
> I couldn't afford it either; I'm just fortunate to
> have so much growing where I live.
>
> Diet doesn't have to be one-size-fits-all.

Very helpful Paul. Thank you very much.

Kinda don't think eating a lot of fruit leads to AGE formation, but maybe there's not enough evidence one way or the other. I just know that if it does, I'm in trouble!

Seems there's some things we just don't know. I'm OK with that.

Hey WY come and see your hero here in Spokane,WA on July 27th. I am hosting her.
Can't wait to get her books.

I dont understand all this talk about calories when they have nothing to do with nutrition. Tonya's diet is super high in balanced live enzymes. That's what I count and what our bodies run on.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kinda don't think eating a lot of fruit leads to
> AGE formation, but maybe there's not enough
> evidence one way or the other. I just know that if
> it does, I'm in trouble!
You mean you'd continue to eat a High Fruit Diet knowing it was bad for you? I know you get some exotic fruits there in Hawaii. Can you get fresh Durian?.....WY

back2eden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey WY come and see your hero here in Spokane,WA
> on July 27th. I am hosting her.
That would be a long trip for me since I live in Florida.
Let us all know your impression of Tonya.....WY

WY, You're getting blasted with toxins over there. Gulf oil, corexit 9500, toxic rain, methane gas, benzene, hydrogen sulfide gas etc. let these both be incentives to get out of there.

Don't you have a big ole nuclear reactor right near you in Spokane?

I wouldnt be here if there was!

back2eden Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wouldnt be here if there was!

I think back2eden is right. Nothing immediately near Spokane. The nearest reactor to Spokane is in Richland, about 137 miles away. Notwithstanding a man was recently devoured by a lobster in Spokane. And the risk of lobsters overrunning Spokane is serious business.



Paul

Back2eden,

I do not think that the lobsters should present any distraction from hosting Tonya. As long as they know Tonya and all of us are raw vegans, they should go to talk to Mayor Verner. I don't know if she's vegan or no. Anyway, good luck with the presentation. And because I've had trouble with this in the past, Everyone should know that this is tongue in cheek. Trying to lighten things up a bit around here

Paul

Wheatgrass Yogi Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
> You mean you'd continue to eat a High Fruit Diet
> knowing it was bad for you?

lol! Well no. But I kinda don't think there will ever be solid evidence to support limiting fruit, as long as the diet also includes enough other stuff too (and as long as the teeth are kept clean). There's a lot of evidence that fruit is good for us, has lots of antioxidants/phytochemicals/vitamins/fiber. The antioxidants in fruits help destroy AGEs. We also know that fruit has a relatively low GI.

Here's a site that I think has a pretty good explanation about AGEs, according to what we currently know:

[www.aging-no-more.com]

I think it's saying that the two main causes of AGEs are: #1) the bonding of sugar to proteins due to high temp. cooking/browning without water, and #2) chronic high blood sugar.

Eating raw fruit doesn't contribute to either of those, but eating straight fructose definitely does.

Regarding reason #2, even though I eat a lot of fruit, I don't have high blood sugar. Whole fruit has a relatively low glycemic index and a relatively low glycemic load.

The site above suggests:
"Eat vegetables and fruits raw, boiled, or steamed. Remember that water prevents sugars from binding to protein molecules. By eating fruits and vegetables raw or by cooking them in water or with steam prevents AGEs from forming."

That seems to be the accepted science so far.

Here's research about properties of mangosteen that help combat AGEs:

[pubs.acs.org]

Basically, if I couldn't eat a lot of fruit, I'm so sensitive to other foods that the fruit would be very difficult to replace. I'd either feel awful all the time, or else I'd have to die of starvation. So for me, it's a very good thing that I can eat lots of fruit! Certainly, I wouldn't start limiting fruit based on the information we have at this time.

> I know you get some
> exotic fruits there in Hawaii. Can you get fresh
> Durian?.....WY

Yes, fresh durian is available here at the farmers' markets when in season. Haven't gotten one yet though, since most of my fruit comes from home. Not sure if durians are available organic. Someday I'll go and check it out. Meanwhile, I have a tree, and I'm waiting....The frozen one I had a few years ago was awful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/2010 09:19PM by suncloud.

CR in conjunction with maximally optimal nutrition

has always made sense to me

precise highest grade fuel

maximum efficiency

minimuml residue/ash

keeps the engine strong, clear and brilliant

excellent thread

i enjoyed reading everyone's opinion greatly

I like the picture of the orange lobster against the aquamarine background and the dude being all whiny. HA HA HA HA!!!!

Like the human version of a hydrogen fuel cell? lol (wait...isnt that beans and normal digestion...har har har)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

pborst
very funny, I'll have to go to store and get some super size me lobster traps.

People ask "is it best to use just juice, blended foods, or solid foods". I just recently independently decided as Tonya has known for some time that a combo of all three is best. Note she starts with the most digestable food in the morning and works up to the hardest to digest. I know from experience that juice is very good but the lack of fiber prevents long term juice only. There are things I would put in a salad that I would not put in blended foods or juice. So the 3 forms together give a very balanced diet with the least amount of energy to digest it.