Ahh, lysosomes are not the cell's "self destruct" mechanism, at least in the case of frozen bananas --

"Lysosomes are spherical organelles that contain enzymes (acid hydrolases) that break up endocytized materials and cellular debris. They are found in animal cells, while in yeast and plants the same roles are performed by lytic vacuoles.[1] Lysosomes digest excess or worn-out organelles, food particles, and engulfed viruses or bacteria. The membrane around a lysosome allows the digestive enzymes to work at the 4.5 pH they require." [en.wikipedia.org]

When and if a cell's lysosome was ruptured, say from blemding, it would become diluted within the cell's other higher pH fluids and rendered harmless.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/14/2010 12:43PM by loeve.

Loeve, sometimes you are my favourite person on this site. I don't know how you do it, but keep it up!

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> An excess of fruit would be traditionally canned,
> frozen, fermented etc. What's the alternative?
> Composting? It's too valuable for that.

How about juicing it, then freezing? It could be added to smoothies in the colder months. Better than nothing, or the compost!

coco said:

Quote

Loeve, sometimes you are my favourite person on this site. I don't know how you do it, but keep it up!

I have to confess I have a bit of a crush on loeve's brain[blushing now]. I was dismayed to hear about the freezing being so harmfull--what, no banana whips even?! But now I feel better

Thanks loeve. I'm just beginning to learn about lysosomes. The lysosome info came from the article I linked previously. I should have researched further.

Turns out that there's apparently some debate among biologists about whether or not plants actually do have lysosomes.

[www.millerandlevine.com]

Whatever the case, as loeve points out, plants have organelles called vacuoles that apparently do the same thing in plants as lysosomes do in animals. Their function is to eat up waste, including dead and dying cells, including the dead cells produced as a result of the freezing process. That means that nutrients are lost, and just as important to some of the more radical ones like me, it means that life force has been lost.

Freezing fruit changes the chemical structure and can also expose it to oxidation.

This is from the University of Minnesota:

"Chemical Changes During Freezing

"The major problem associated with enzymes in fruits is the development of brown colors and loss of vitamin C....

"Another group of chemical changes that can take place in frozen products is the development of rancid oxidative flavors through contact of the frozen product with air.This problem can be controlled by using a wrapping material which does not permit air to pass into the product. It is also advisable to remove as much air as possible from the freezer bag or container to reduce the amount of air in contact with the product...

"Textural Changes During Freezing

"Water makes up over 90 percent of the weight of most fruits and vegetables. This water and other chemical substances are held within the fairly rigid cell walls which give support structure, and texture to the fruit or vegetable. Freezing fruits and vegetables actually consists of freezing the water contained in the plant cells.

"When the water freezes, it expands and the ice crystals cause the cell walls to rupture...."

[www.extension.umn.edu]

Although oxidation can be controlled by covering with plastic, the plastic will not bring life back to the fruit once its cells have been ruptured. And when the dead fruit is out of the plastic bag, it's exposed to oxidation. If it's eaten right after removing it from the refrigerator, then the stomach has to digest something frozen (plus dead).

Sorry. I'm just radical.

I don't really think frozen fruit is harmful. But I don't think it has as much benefit as living, fresh fruit. To me, there's something very special about a living whole fruit.

If it can't be eaten in its fresh, living state, then I think I'd prefer to dry it or compost it. If I have more than I can eat, giving it away is always nice.

I think frozen juice is a great idea. You end up with something like a sorbet or popsicle which can be eaten frozen, and eliminate the whole question of what's going to happen to the taste and quality in the minutes or hours after it thaws out, and any burst cells a bonus freeing up more nutrients.

I could do that... and have actually tried it with sweet winter squash which makes a surprisingly good frozen dish.

Edit: Just saw your message, suncloud. Thanks



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2010 10:41AM by loeve.

"Whatever the case, as loeve points out, plants have organelles called vacuoles that apparently do the same thing in plants as lysosomes do in animals. Their function is to eat up waste, including dead and dying cells, including the dead cells produced as a result of the freezing process. That means that nutrients are lost, and just as important to some of the more radical ones like me, it means that life force has been lost."

Sorry, that is not exactly what I meant. The wikipedia quote was --

"Lysosomes are spherical organelles that contain enzymes (acid hydrolases) that break up endocytized materials and cellular debris. They are found in animal cells, while in yeast and plants the same roles are performed by lytic vacuoles.[1] Lysosomes digest excess or worn-out organelles, food particles, and engulfed viruses or bacteria. The membrane around a lysosome allows the digestive enzymes to work at the 4.5 pH they require." [en.wikipedia.org]

The wikipedea quote describes what lysosomes do, (Lysosomes digest excess or worn-out organelles, food particles, and engulfed viruses or bacteria.) and says in plants lytic vacuoles perform the sames roles, without mentioning eating up dead and dying cells.

For me there is a toss up between fresh local food frozen in excess for use during the off season and
fresh foods in the off season from far away lands picked before they are ripe and shipped to me using lots of fossil fuels.

which is better for me, for the planet (which is also ultimately for me), etc?

I'd rather dry, freeze or even can local produce in season. You don't really have to worry about vitamins on a raw diet (or any diet, actually), it's the minerals you've got to get enough of and they aren't affected by freezing, drying, or even cooking so far as we know. Enzymes, sure, life force, ok, nutrients still top the list for me. And not burning fuels. That's really important too.

I agree coco, not to mention you can minimize nutrient loss do to freezing by soaking for a few minutes in a small amount of cold water that has had Vitamin C crystals dissolved in it, reducing both the small amount of oxidation that happens whole frozen, and reduces the large amount of oxidation that happens during defrosting, if one defrosts... there is Vitamin C loss in things that are frozen then defrosted, because the vitamin C is an Anti-Oxidant and is acting to stop the oxidation process, thereby reducing its levels within the fruit/veggie...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Loeve, yes, the Wikipedia article does say, "The lysosomal membrane protects the cytosol, and therefore the rest of the cell, from the degradative enzymes within the lysosome. The cell is additionally protected from any lysosomal acid hydrolases that leak into the cytosol as these enzymes are pH-sensitive and function less well in the alkaline environment of the cytosol."

But my understanding is that this is not always the case, and lysosomes have other functions. Note the following in the same Wikipedia article:

"They (lysosomes) are frequently nicknamed "suicide-bags" or "suicide-sacs" by cell biologists due to their role in autolysis."

According to Wikipedia, "...autolysis, or more commonly known as self digestion, refers to the destruction of a cell through the action of its own enzymes. Autolysis is initiated by the cells' lysosomes releasing the digestive enzymes they contain out into the cytoplasm. The cell then, in effect, starts to digest itself. Autolysis of individual cell organelles can be lessened if the organelle is stored in ice-cold isotonic buffer after cell fractionation."

I don't think a home freezer is considered an isotonic environment.

When fruits are frozen, entire cells are ruptured by expansion of the water within the cells. Fruit cells contain a lot of water, so they would experience a very large rupture. That's a different circumstance than having a toxin enter the cell that needs to be attacked while sparing the cell.

The following comes from an anatomy and physiology textbook, Essentials of Anatomy & Physiology, by Seeley, Stephens, Tate (p. 55 - 56):

"...when tissues are damaged, ruptured lysosomes within the damaged cells release their enzymes and digest both healthy and damaged cells."

Wikipedia says that vacuoles perform the same functions in plants, but I couldn't verify if that includes cell digestion. Definitely though, fruit cells are damaged beyond repair during the freezing process.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Coco, have you considered that your home freezer burns a lot of fuel? I think it's a difficult choice though when you don't have fresh local produce year-round.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2010 02:02AM by suncloud.

freezers dont use that much energy, less so if they are nearly full but not to full, I have a huge freezer that is over 30 years old, when i dont have it full, I have buckets I will with water, when it freezes, I dump it out of the bucket and put the big block of ice inside, drastically reduces the power consumption...

when I got this freezer, it raised my monthly electricity bill (normally between 50-60 bucks) up by an average of around $5 could be a few dollars more or a few less, but still seems like its using a heck of allot less fuel than purchasing fruits or veggies from other parts of the country would, in fact, probably less fuel than driving to the supermarket in the average car.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

It comes attached to the fridge which came attached to this house. *shrugs* we all have fridges, pretty hard to eat a fresh food diet without it. Best I can do is put the least fuel burning produce in it.
Plus, freezers work better when they're full.

yup^_^

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Well, I guess it's a personal choice. I don't freeze my fruit, but if someone else wants to (or feels like they have to), oh well!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2010 03:02AM by suncloud.

thats a good resolution to this discussion ^_^

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I'm just surprised anyone takes Wikipedia seriously. I'd be more likely to read it it was from another source.

I've seen so much crap information on there. My favorite was the guy from some famous band.. posting on his blog asking who wrote that crap on him because it was so wrong..even his birthdate was off. LOL So why would I believe anything diet related on there.

I dont take anything as gospel truth off wikipedia, but I will often post wikipedia articles if I feel to lazy to look up original studies and link them, as most people act like wikipedia is always right... I can talk about something ive researched for most of my life, no dice... link to an article on wikipedia about it, and then all of a sudden everyone is like "woh, he must be right! wikipedia says so" lol...I feel slightly bad for it, but I mean it could take weeks, maybe even months to find every good source on something ive found in the past, and its just not worth the effort to win an internet argument... I DID have copies of all the date I had amassed on different things I have been interested in over the years, had them on my external HD and burned to DVD's... long story short, HD died, data was unrecoverable, along with all my music, movies, and thousands of pictures... and all my data DVD's got thrown out... long story on that available upon request,LOL

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

From past discussions on autolysis, lysosomes interest me as a part of animal cell function. Animals have long lives and cells wear out, atrophy and are digested for reuse.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2010 11:15AM by loeve.

We've discussed autophagy [www.rawfoodsupport.com] but I don't think it applies very much to freezing bananas.

-- lysosome action in digesting food particles and damaged organelles --



"A membrane-bounded organelle, found in the cytoplasm of eukaryotic cells,
which contains digestive enzymes. It acts as the "garbage disposal" of the
cell by breaking down cell components that are no longer needed as well as
molecules or even bacteria that are ingested by the cell. The interior of a
lysosome is strongly acidic, and its enzymes are active at an acid pH.
Lysosomes are found in all eukaryotic cells, but are most numerous in disease-
fighting cells, such as leukocytes (white blood cells)."

[search.aol.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2010 11:47AM by loeve.

In Wikipedea's "frozen banana" article it discusses home freezing versus blast (flash) freezing, which reminds me how high tech industry gets when it comes to freezing fruit --

[en.wikipedia.org]

-oh, this wikihow article explains how to make this treat even better --

[www.wikihow.com]

-the plant version of a lysosome is commonly called a lytic vacuole (LV).
When the cell is frozen one question is what happens within the cell
and when...



[search.aol.com]

Another way to eat too many bananas is to let them ferment in their skins. They ooze out at that point and even have a kick from the bacteria changing the sugar into alcohol. Seriously, I've eaten them this way as have others on the board. They become fizzy bananas.

Of course it takes some discernment to sort out those that have rotted from those that have fermented nicely, and fermenting is not always sucessful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2010 04:15PM by loeve.

"When the cell is frozen one question is what happens within the cell"

I'll take a guess that with juicy fruits ice crystals penetrate from all directions.


[search.aol.com]

I love those giant crystal caves, i so want to visit one someday ^_^

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Come on, that's not REAL is it? Get outta here!

yup!!!! its real and effing awesome

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?