I,m slightly concerned about the way every symptom that anyone might experience is automatically put down to detox.

By detox I am assuming that most people mean the body is cleansing itself of unwanted toxins and this is a good thing.

Violently vomiting after drinking wheatgrass - is this Detox? I don't think so.
Falling prey to a circulating cold - is this Detox? I don't think so.

Other symptoms that are written off as detox may be symptoms of a serious disorder - now how you deal with that disorder is a matter of personal preference.

I'm just worried that folk new to the raw world might see all this talk of detox and not know the difference between symtoms of cleansing and some other more serious problem.

However I think this subject is a hot potato ( sorry ) and I look forward to the discussion that may follow!!

I agree. It's not so common now, but I can remember a few years ago on various raw food forums that losing teeth and losing hair were considered detox symptoms! Nearly every negative experience was written off as detox!

I think it's a lot better now though. When people have problems, it seems forum posters in general are asking about the OP's food intake and lifestyle etc, which is definitely a step forwards

I don't like doctors, but if my teeth started becoming loose, I would be down the docs in a second!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 09:48AM by suspendedindefinitely.

hi, yes hot potato but an important subject too!

I agree with what you say, some of the physical occurrances and behaviors may be also due to something other then detox, rather due to a disorder.

It seems the term Orthorexia nervosa has not yet been established that well so that there's some fine und more or less undefinable line between: striving for health in a healthy and therefor accaptable manner, and striving for health whilst developing a disorder which mainly manifests itself in bad feelings towards certain foods,obsessed thoughts about food and eating, fear to eat out, excessiv cleanse etc.

I have the impression that some raw foodists are underweight.. (?)
yes, being overweight is bad news for health, but being significantly underweight is perhaps even worse.
I guess this may happen because the strive for perfection in health simply becomes too tense. this is also connected to serious sport which is not harmful in itself, but being very underweight is.

wikipedia says it's different to anorexia, since the people concerned are spending a lot of their time thinking about quality not quantity.
it's accutally considered as a possible way of healing a persons anorexia when practice doesn't escalate.

So, I think it's important to know for oneself why one is eating a raw (vegan) diet. Of course everyone knows the arguments, but what I mean is the personal inner motivation.. if you know what I mean. That could possibly be all kinds of things, like emancipation, family issues, drug abuse, severe disease.. etc .

And also to know whether or not one is feeling good about one's diet or if you are acctually suffering however.

I find that besides the personal reason (as i wrote above) it seems to be a matter of facts which one can argue about.
I mean there are docters who talk about the benefits of raw and the harm of anything els when it comes down to it. Of course it varys, for instance the effects of cows milk and cooked grains on the body aren't the same.
overall it seems to only make sense to eat raw.
- are these thoughts already sick?

@ suspendedindefinitely: what does OP stand for?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 10:55AM by Want2know.

Good post and i fully agree, hair loss is common on raw and 9/10 its because there not including a dietary iodine source but ive seen so many people say its just detox aswell as attributing detox to every symptom under the sun.

@powerlifer- original poster, person posting the question

Agree, though in the case of wheatgrasss, I am reserving my opinion. This substance, because of its chemical makeup, is in a separate category; it is conceivable that because wheatgrass juice is metabolized so quickly in the liver, it could cause a sudden mild heximer reaction in the blood vessels in that organ, resulting in temporary nausea. Likewise, someone's stomach acids may find so much alkalinity at once irritating, and force the juice to be expelled. I don't advise that someone who reacts violently to wheatgrass keep drinking large amounts to "test" whether they are having a stomach response or a liver response to it, mind you. I just mean it is possible that nausea after wheatgrass could be a detox response.

Other things attributed to detox can be detox; it's a matter of degree. If some hair falls out and then grows back in healthy and permanent, that is detox, in the sense that those cells were defective and the raw diet caused the body to replace/repair them. If the hair loss is sudden and catastrophic, and isn't followed by renewed healthy hair growth, well, that isn't detox, because it initiates and aberrant condition. Likewise tooth loss. If you had an unhealthy tooth, say riddled with caries and atrophied of root, you would hope that tooth would be eliminated(if it could not be healed) as it itself is an aberrant condition. If perfectly healthy teeth fall out and do not grow back in, well hello, osteomalacia! This is not detox; you need to intake more micronutrients.

I think most of us, especially those that transitioned to high raw rapidly, have experienced temporary vague feelings of ill health--fatigue, poor digestion, skin rashes or other outbreaks, peculiar taste in the mouth, thirst, soreness, intense cravings, anomalous mucus production--that completely passed after a time, did not return, and left in their wake unmistakable signs of health--vigor, efficient digestion, clear skin, sinuses, and breath. The former can be considered detox, provided that they are initiated by a change to an optimally nutritious raw regimen and do not last long.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 01:35PM by Tamukha.

When you get right down to it,isnt the body in a constant state of "detox".Meaning the normal cycle of metabolism and clearing away of dead cells?

I think true detox ,and accompanying symptoms would only come from a strict fasting period,plus certain specific measures such as enemas,and cleansing supplements such as psillyum.??

Not everything is straightforward

As always Tamukha expresses herself elegantly and well. You are, though, experienced and can apply logic to each situation. I sometimes see the strangest things written off as detox and do worry that the susceptible might not do the necessary research to find out the truth of the matter.

On the subject of enemas and colonics - no thanks - i think they are entirely unnessessary and quite possibly dangerous. I'm sure people will point out the error of my ways here

Is it true, by the way, that people can become addicted to enenmas and, if so, why?

what's with the psychic side of all of this?
where does orthorexia start?

You can become addicted to enemas physically so its best to space them out, i believe its because the muscles get weak, sort of like constantly using laxatives.

Ive never had a colonic ive always been interested in trying one, but the idea or some woman or guy putting things up my bum doesnt interest me enough lol.

My hair falls out less now that I"m raw. When I was cooked & raw, I ate seaweed all the time and used iodized salt. Just so you know.

Its just iodine is an essential nutrient and you do need a source and its often overlooked.

You hair can fall out for many more reasons than iodine though, good to hear its better now on raw.

I meant it fell out the "normal" amount pre-raw (the expected amount that is average) and now it's even less.

Seaweeds aren't the only source of iodine, of course. Real whole foods by land have enough.

Thanks!!

They dont have enough from what i know, can you show me a concentrated or even decent source of iodine other than strawberries.

flipperjan

Thanks for your kind appraisal of my contribution, and I do second your concern that newbies could be misled by those who attribute everything to detox, to diastrous ends.

Utopian Life,

I have not heard that real whole foods from land have sufficient iodine--hence the term "Goiter Belt," referring to the Upper Midwest in the 1920's, when the soil was already depleted of iodine. Ain't been reconditioned since, as far as I know. Even if you are talking organic produce, it's probably not high in iodides. Watercress is supposedly quite high, parsley, so-so. Seaweed is the most concentrated source. Unfortunately for moi and my kelp revulsion



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 09:35PM by Tamukha.

Well, I don't know about "concentrated," but it contains the amounts it contains. Our bodies don't do well with concentration anyway....

Asparagus, dulse, garlic, kelp, lima beans, mushrooms, seaweed, sesame seeds, soybeans, spinach, strawberries, summer squash, swiss chard, turnip greens

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Seaweeds aren't the only source of iodine, of
> course. Real whole foods by land have enough.

I appreciate your point of view Utopian, but do you happen to have a research-based reference for your statement? If so, I'm open to it, for sure. My understanding is there's no reliable vegan food source, other than seaweed. Potatoes are a possible exception, but most raw vegans don't eat them. Other raw plant foods will have trace amounts, depending on how much iodine was in their soil. That's often not enough, in part because most farmland these days is located far from the ocean.

My mother was born in 1910, and she used to tell me about the many cases of goiter she saw when she was a little girl, before iodized salt.

I hope you will read this:

[en.wikipedia.org]


On detox, I think a lot of disease symptoms are based on detox of some form or another. If a person throws up after eating something, that's often because your body is detoxing the stuff out of your system.

Or if a person has the flu, the stuffy runny nose is a detox symptom.

I don't think though that getting the flu is necessarily a detox symptom.

And I feel I know from former experience that some conditions are caused by too little of something, rather than always by too much.

Most of us have had it so easy all our lives with eating pretty much whatever we like, that we are just not in touch with the millions around the planet who are suffering severely from vitamin and mineral deficiencies. They're not experiencing detox, They're experiencing malnutrition.

Oh, how they would love the luxury of the Western society "detox"!

It's fine and natural, given our overweight Western society, to be focused on detox when we first begin to clean up our diet. But at a certain point, I think it's healthy to pay some attention to filling the need for all our essential nutrients.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2010 09:54PM by suncloud.

Your mum was right before iodized salt etc, but again that isnt a healthy source but she was still right about goiter occuring and such..

Watercress does contain iodine again like strawberries etc but not in a concentrated source to meet the crappy RDA , seaweeds are needed if you dont eat a SAD diet.

Im afraid not everything can be got from fruits.

I won't be eating seaweed, thanks. I've read of plenty of people on low fat raw vegan meeting their (noninflated) iodine needs using cron-o-meter. I'll let you know if I get goiter. I'm not worried about it one bit.

Yeah, maybe Morton salt paid for a study, suncloud. :p lol

Well then, what is it? I think all dis-ease begins with auto-toxemia, whether a cold or cancer. If your nose is running, what is occurring? Your body is ridding itself of mucus? Why? The fact that you mentioned wheatgrass and vomiting--well, I don't think that it's a good idea to detox too quickly. And if something like wheatgrass makes someone immediately vomit, then I think they are either consuming too much of it and need to get acclimated to it, just cannot stand the taste, or are doing too many purifying things at once (after years of toxic living).

Utopian Life,

There is growing clinical evidence that the RDA for iodine, as for Vitamin C and Vitamin D, is far, far below what is necessary for optimum health; these values were established decades ago, and based on men's nutrient needs(extrapolated out for women). I haven't been there, but I'm guessing cron-o-meter isn't up on the latest research, as these values are currently being debated. Btw, the studies on iodine-poor soils causing rampant goiter in the Upper Midwest were not funded by Morton's. This was a serious public health crisis, not some money making conspiracy; Morton's salt was iodized only after the severity of the problem became known and at the request of state public health services. I am sure you know how your body is doing, but as everyone responds to nutrients in slightly unique ways, it's good for people to have as wide an array of plant food choices as possible to source nutrients.

I wasn't suggesting the study was funded by Morton's that you spoke of - I was joking when you asked about research about land-based veg/fruit that maybe Morton would fund one.

Not much to add, pretty much agree with everything Tam has posted, so adding anything more would be a bit redundant,lol.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Land based fruits and veg will not have iodine unless it's in the soil they're grown in. Soils close to the ocean will have more iodine naturally.

Iodine deficiency is a really common problem that causes many health issues and is made even more of an issue by chemicals such as fluoride, and bromide that we come into contact with regularly these days, that are of the same chemical 'family' as iodine and so compete with iodine for the receptors in our cells. This means that the more of these chemicals that are in our bodies or that we ingest or come into contact with, the more iodine we require to successfully remove these chemicals from our body.

The RDA is seriously low (as they pretty much all are) and is only the amount that will prevent goitre. Goitre is only one issue caused by lack of iodine, there are many others including breast cancer, fibroids and fibrocystic breast disease, prostate cancer, adhd and a whole lot more.

Goiter is also caused by excessive iodine consumption.

Goiter is not caused by excessive organic iodine consumption. Witness the historic cases of sea salt merchants who consumed lots of iodine containing sea salts and were famed, pitiably, for their goiters. There isn's a single clinical case of development of goiter from overconsumption of iodized salt, for example; you'd probably die of kidney failure first! Goiter has been exceedingly rare the past few decades because of iodide additives in food. toxinfree is right, however, that the main problem, and why goiter is occasionally being seen again in the developed world, is because of toxic halides; fluoride, bromide, and chloride, that are added to water and used as food "purificants." For instance, once upon a time, milled flour was preserved by the addition of iodine. But then it was discovered that the related halide, bromide, also has an antibacterial effect but is cheaper to manufacture. So now milled flours contain toxic bromide preservative rather than nontoxic iodine, and that bromide competes with iodine for receptors in the thyroid and breast tissues, and the bromide wins. Or fluoride, or metabolized chlorine. This is not as great an issue for raw foodists, because we don't eat processed foods and we tend to drink filtered water, but when you consider how little iodine is bioavailable from inland soil-grown foods, and how many more potent competing chemicals people are intaking without knowing it(from the watering of crops with toxic water, say), we're headed for another iodine deficiency related health crisis. We may already have one: iodine is the only halide implicated in proper oxygen bearing cellular metabolism. A deficiency of iodine is being linked to various cancers, as cancer is basically a condition of oxygen deprivation on a cellular level. If this proves to be a causal correlation, raw foodists, too, must be vigilant about developing deficiency, and goiter will be the least of our worries. Sorry to be so vehement about this, everyone, but it is rather a bee in my bonnet

Good posts tamukha and toxinfree, the RDA is very well and only for the basis of preventing goiter, as you say toxinfree low iodine is linked with a number of conditions.

Also your correct about land based produce not having iodine.

Any reason your so against seaweed utopian ? It is very healthy and can be raw too.

The sea is a such a toxic soup, I'm hesitant to consume anything that comes out of it I'm afraid. What's to be done? There must be a cleaner alternative...

I'm not against all seaweed. I have dulse flakes daily for my iodine. And I have kelp noodles and sea spaghetti. And recently Sirova, my main sea vegetable supplier, has added sea lettuce which I am anxious to try.

That said, both Davis and Melina in "Becoming Raw" advise against Hijiki because of arsenic. And so I have taken it off my list. It's still sold in my local ethnic market. Sirova also has laver. Am anxious to try.

Paul