Dear Basia,

I'm glad you saw the PS. I live on the Big Island of Hawaii, and I was here for at least 8 years when I learned that the reason for my stomach pains (and heartburn) was that I had a rare amoeba. Different amoebas have different symptoms, but it's my understanding that the bad ones will all cause you to lose a lot of weight if they go undetected. By the time my doctor sent me to the lab, I was down to about 80 pounds. I have another friend who lived here and had a similar experience with an amoeba a few years before me.

There's every chance you don't have the same thing, but it sure wouldn't hurt to get tested and find out.

I love your beautiful holy healer vibe, -Ally

nedsin,

on the top of the message list in this forum Bryan (a moderator) has posted a "sticky note" that explains how

Nedsin,

No matter how clean your diet was before, if you've been regularly consuming meat, your body will need to detox. I lift weights and went through this myself - I just felt too weak to even think about going to the gym. But fortunately about 80% of my muscle remained & it was easy to get back in shape despite my lengthy absence from the gym.

When I went back I was able to lift more and not tire as easily, and deep squats no longer take every single ounce of my physical & mental concentration.

I did alot of research & unfortunately there's just not alot of information on raw food & bodybuilding.

However, I've found something that works really well for me - E3Live Blue Green algae - it's very high in protein. I drink 2 oz at a time, 2 or 3 times a day.

On top of that, I learned from Fruitarian One's website that fruit is essential for muscle recovery, and I've recently been experimenting with adding more fruit.

The combination of E3Live, dark green leafy salads, hemp nuts, and fruit seems to be working. I admit after leg workouts though I still drink a few protein shakes on recovery days - I'm not sure it's necessary but I'm afraid to go completely without as my leg workouts are so tough!

I don't work out 6 days a week though so keep us updated on your progress as I'm very curious. Most raw fooders aren't going for a gym physique so you'll have to be somewhat of a guinea pig but hopefully you'll be able to add some invaluable wisdom to the topic through trial & error.

Good luck!

Also, I don't know if it's even possible for a man to attain a bulky muscular physique on the raw diet - like 5'10 and 230 pounds, all muscle - is that possible on the raw diet???

I suspect it may not be. It may well be that only a lean muscular look is possible, unless you've been blessed with a larger bone structure to begin with.

I really don't know & I doubt any raw fooder today will be able to tell you.

Check out this link:

[www.organicathlete.org]


See he's not HUGE, like bodybuilding magazine huge - but he def is muscular.

I haven't seen anyone post this explanation yet. When you first go raw (first year or so) and introduce superior nutrients compared to what you were consuming before, your body will break down the inferior muscles and rebuild with raw foods. I'm sure you will loathe my use of the word inferior, but that's the deal. You say you ate 70% raw before. But you've been eating high protein which causes an acidic system.

Only a person who has eaten a raw diet since birth and was born to a mother who ate a raw diet since her birth would not experience detox. You on the other hand sound like you are having a hard time adjusting mentally or emotionally to the lies we have been told about diet and the experience of being a beginner at something probably really rubs you the wrong way.

Total healing of your entire body down to the cellular level and fast results are mutual exclusive concepts.

littlebug

It's interesting that eveyone jumps to so many conclusions? I'm not a meat eater, hardly ever ate meat, I'm not a huge bulk of a hulk, either and that is not what I'm talking about. I'm a physique model, like an Under Gear Model of an International Male model, that type of a model. NOT a HULK, that is not what I've ever been or wanted to be. I'm worried about strength and wondering if this diet is going to ruin it, since I'm becoming weaker and looks less than I did before the diet, which has been about 4 month's ago. I'm ORGANIC, 100 % and want to stay on this diet, since it's been positive in other way's. I've got clear skin, I can see better, I look more handsome and Feel great, except for the strength. I wonder, if taking supplements. like, MACA, TRIBULUS, CREATINE, NO-2 and suck is a bad thing to do? Maybe this would help me, and non of those workout supplements are from an animal. If you know about theses supplements then please give me some feed back. I doubt it would ruin my raw food diet. Especially when I've recently learned that other raw foodists are not all the way ORGANIC, and not strict in their diet and habits as in smoking, drinking etc.

I dont think those supplements will help much.

Maybe if you have sexual disfunction the maca would be good (not to assume anything)

-chow

In my opinion, If you are willing to listen, I think you should listen to The Fruitarian One. He knows what he is doing and raw hasn't recked his physique.

You might want to ease up on maca. That stuff really stressed my body out when I tried it. I don't like the stuff.

It may seem odd at first, but I've found that "green smoothies" are awesome for keeping my energy up. Blend a salad's worth of lettuce together with an apple or a pear, or other fruit (maybe add some lemon or ginger juice as well, if you want -- it makes it easier to digest). Because it's blended, the amino acids from the lettuce are much easier to digest and assimilate compared to a salad. You can add hemp powder as well, if you want, but it doesn't taste good.

I'm very physically active and I noticed that salad's often weighed me down, mostly from the fat. It's also hard to chew a salad to the consistently of a green smoothie. This way you can really enjoy the lettuce, and without extra fats. It's extremely refreshing. Just try not to add fruits like banana to the smoothies; all the extra sugar can sap some people's strength. If I eat the really sugary fruits I personally feel weak.

Are you getting enough fat?

I was listening to this guy's free audio and he mentions that it is optimal for testosterone to be getting at least 30% of your calories from dietary fat. [www.muscleblitz.com]

I think the real issue here is that your not listening to a word anyone is saying....Ha,Ha...now I can see why everyone was so short wih you....

Sunshine 79 hit the nail on the head...

Hey Sunshine ....as for getting bigger on a raw diet ...it is possible but you just gotta figure out whjat build you want and go for it...

I too got a LOT weaker on a mostly raw vegan diet. I started feeling better after I paid more attention to my b12 and omega 3s.

I added a b12 supplement and 6-8 ounces of wild Alaskan Salmon a week to my diet. I know many would disagree with adding the salmon, but I'm feeling better. Maybe it's all a cooincidence.

I look at the salmon as medicine. I need to take it in small amounts and maybe it has side effects, but...

The point is to eat the diet that will make us feel best. Some of us have unique health problems, that we may not even be fully aware of or even be able to be diagnosed by a doctor. 100% raw vegan may not be best for EVERYONE. In general the more raw vegan the better, but that is just in GENERAL. Sometimes there are exceptions.

It's not a contest of who can be the most raw. Also our diet should not be a religion. Just love your body, experiment a bit, and use your best judgement.

When the body is detoxing, and you reintroduce the toxin, the body does feel better.

The raw vegan diet does present its challenge of detox, and when people experience the symptoms of detox - which could be cold/flu like symptoms, or could simply be weakness or fatigue, they get frightened into returning to their old ways, and guess what - the symptoms disappear.

I've experienced the weakness that came from detox. I had previously abused my body with overwork and stimulants. When I quit coffee before going raw, my body had a chronic fatigue-like detox. Eating raw helped that, but when I cut out the stimulants out of my raw vegan diet, I had a similar chronic fatigue detox. At this point, I could have started using those stimulants from my raw diet again (salt, spices, condiments), but I chose not to. Instead, I let my body sleep all it wanted, and the fatigue went away. Also, after I allowed my body to fully recover from its stimulant withdrawal and the sleep debt from all those years of drinking coffee, my health began to soar.

If going raw vegan makes a person weak, and eating salmon restores the strength, all one has done is to provide the stimulant that was in the previous diet. The weakness is actually a sign of the body taking steps to heal itself. Where does the energy and strength go during this time of weakness? It goes into the healing of the body! When your body makes you so weak that all you want to do is lie down, what the body is telling you is to take it easy and rest, perhaps even sleep more, so that it can finish its detoxification and housecleaning. Once the healing is finished, the strength and energy does return. How long could this last? For me, it took about 4 months, but I had 12 years of massive coffee drinking and lack of sleep to deal with.

As for B12 deficiency, even if you could magically stop all B12 production in your body, and you were so careful in your diet that no B12 came into your diet, the existing B12 in your body would be carefully and parimoniously recycled and preserved in your body that it could last 3 years before you needed some more B12. However, a healthy body creates its own B12, in the mucous membranes of the nasal passages, the throat, and in the intestines. What is the cause of B12 deficiency? Inability to absorb or digest B12, since our bodies for the most part create their own B12. For more information on B12, check out this article by Dr Ventrano. Another excellent article is on the living-foods website.

Thank you for the links to the b12 articles. I think I got into trouble so quickly because I had been very unwell for years and lost over 30% of my body weight due to severe IBS and was living off mostly Ensure, jello and toast. I think my b12 and omega3s were a MESS before I went vegan.

I still don't think I'm properly absorbing nutrients and am still losing weight. Recently I've started having myoclonic seizures as well.

I spend an hour or two a day reading about nutrition and my various ailments. There is so much conflicting advice. Week by week I tweak my diet, just doing the best I can with the information I currently have :-0

There is so much that is just theory :-(

Quote

A whole lifetime's requirement of B12 add up to a 40 milligram speck of red crystals, about one-seventh the size of an average tablet of aspirin!

The Vitamin B12 Issue

by Dr Gina Shaw, D.S., M.A., AIYS (Dip. Irid.)

The subject of Vitamin B12 is not new to most vegans, vegetarians or raw fooders. The supplement companies have many people running to their local health (drug) stores in an effort to make themselves deficiency-free, but is this a good idea? A number of issues will be raised in this article and I will attempt to piece together some information from many different and reliable (non-financially-oriented) sources. read

also: An Introduction To Cobalamin Metabolism - cobalamins: form, function, inhibitors, a vegan perspective (Article) [libaware.economads.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/03/2006 11:39PM by innervegetable.

Bryan, salmon isn't a toxin. It's salmon.

It's ok not to be able to explain it all you know. Just to admit that you can't explain everything within your worldview.

You can let a comment about salmon slip by and still not eat salmon yourself.

I respect people's opinions, but I feel I have to speak out when people refer to the Vetrano article (above) on B12.

Anyone can look up the nutrition charts on www.nutritiondata.com (info from the USDA) and see that - contrary to the Vetrano article - nuts and seeds do NOT contain any B12 at all. Same with green beans, beets, carrots, and peas - NO B12 whatsoever. Or is there a better source than the USDA for nutritional food charts? If anyone referencing her article is aware of such a source - a source that is specific enough to verify Vetrano's statement that 100 grams of beans, beets, carrots, and peas contain enough B12 to supply half our daily needs - then by all means, out with it! Vetrano unfortunately gives no reference for her information.

Since green beans, beets, carrots, and peas contain no B12, then obviously - contrary to V. Vetrano's article - 100 grams of them will NOT give us 50% of the RDA! I'm just still somewhat floored that she would make such a statement, apparently coming from out of simply nowhere, when so many consider her to be a "raw food guru".

It's one thing to state a belief that B12 can't be necessary for vegans because it doesn't jive with one's personal raw food philosophy, quite another to back up your view with false statements like Ms. Vetrano did in her article. Maybe someone mistakenly gave Ms. Vetrano the faulty information. Still, she should have researched it herself before she put it out under her name on the internet. Shame on her!

Well, 'nuff said.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2006 07:18AM by Ally.

I have to agree with Nedsin on everything. I tried to come here for answers but I basically got the "IT's detox" or "you must lose all your original 'fake' muscle" before you gain real "Raw" muscle," as fruitarion put it. I find it pretty insulting that all my hard work busting my ass in the gym to get my bench max up was called "FAKE" just because I was eating chicken and rice at the time. WHATEVER! Just because somebody gains strength digesting a food of different cell-structure, does not mean their strength is "FAKE" or false; it just means they gained strength through a different FUEL. - I find it funny that the biggest guys on raw food diet, were previous bodybuilders. (They got their muscle mass from real protein sources..) THEN became raw. I have 2 Examples of this for proof if you want.




Daniel C Docto, former bodybuilder, muy thai instructor and "Raw food" health promoter. He's all about living foods. Take note though, that he too was once "SAD" in his 20's, and during that time is when he did his "bodybuilding"



I'm sure you've all read about shannon. Take note though, all though his life up to his 20's he was S.A.D. and gained all of his muscle with normal protein, like any normal bodybuilder. He also complained of bodyfat at the time, and didn't get lean like this untill after it was he did his transition.

But what does this tell ME? That if you want to get some bulk, you need to get more calories/protein, and it's damn near impossible to do that unless you EAT high caloric foods, and most raw food is low-caloric but very dense and heavy. So you can eat untill you're FULL, but doesn't mean you have eaten enough CALORIES. I would like to see a person try to do a standard 4,000 calorie BULK on raw food diet. (About 40 Bananas a day) - Ya'll see where I'm coming from here? Who really possibly can eat that much?

I kind of get pissed off and fed up with people telling me to go buy some exotic plant or berry or leaf, and grind it up into a powder and make a protein shake out of it, when Clearly I can run down to GMC and grab some whey protein and get it done and over with ten times quicker. It annoys me that Raw foodist and zealots are promoting that you can bulid muscle on the raw food diet, when in all reality, you pretty much CANT! and if you do, you were already skinny and probably got more TONED. - The Raw food diet can only get you RIPPED, I bet there is not one person on this forum that can tell me they gained mass from the RAW FOOD DIET, because you CANT!


The best looking and most athletic people in my opinion follow the 80/10/10 rule, wich is pretty much frutarion, but not strictly. (Mostly carbs, fruits ect.) - They look good because their bodies are drained of excess SALTS, FATS, and water retention. They have lots of nutrients to keep them bouncing, healthy, radiant ect.. But does that mean thats where they got their muscles in the first place? I doubt it!

I agree with Nedsin, because I am in the process of "Cutting' and have expericned a feeling of weakness and muscle loss DURING my entire removal of animal protein sources. I get pissed off because they say I have an "ego" complex, or a psychological problem because I want to look good? What's up with that? Everybody wants to look good! They say "Our natural bodies must take the shape they would in nature.." blah blah blah blah, well I'm sorry this isn't exactly SURVIVAL, we aren't stranded on an island, and if we WERE, we'd probably be curryin' up some fish to survive. For God sakes, we're communicating over the INTERNET. Technology that far exceeds your ancestral ideals, yet you say I am being unnatural because I want a healthy physique?

ANYWAYS, this does not matter. Wanting somthing just leads me to seek advice, and answers, and so far all I get is "Try this omega3 alpha mega omega 7ten algae drink" - Since when did our ancestoral cavepeople collect Algea, crush it into powder, and use their ancient blender to make an ancient historic energy drink? How is it people get energy off of lettuce when it only has like 100 calories in a pound? Does anyone understand me here?

I still havn't gotten an answer as to what EXACTLY fruitarion one eats in an entire day. I was reading his forum, and somebody asked what EXACTLY and HOW MUCH he eats in a day, to wich he replied a swaying answer like "it doth not matter what one eats, but the essence and flow of your spirit...." or "follow your path to truth light, your body will let you know" - yada yada. Well if he FOLLOWED our body, then we would be eating fast food and milkshakes, because we ALL get those craving's, so that ANSWER just isn't enough. (No offense Fruitarionone, I'm just saying people need specifics somtimes!!)

And speaking of Specifics, take Doug Graham for instances. WE all know who he is. HE told me online one time, (I happened to catch him logging on his AIM NAME about 3 yrs ago) - that he can sit down and eat about 20 oranges in a row. WTF!!!!!! Who doest hat? HOW?? Is this why raw fooders don't like to be specific? Because they dont want to tell people that they need to eat 20-50 fruits in a row just to maintain a below-skinny physique? Answers please!

It is strictly in my opinion, that one cannot gain size or mass from this diet, but that can get very "cut" or "lean" - AS far as muscle loss goes, I have to say Bryan explained it best as he said "The water and fat needs to be flushed out" or somthing along that lines, and I agree with that. I was only 40-70% raw and I experienced that feelign of "lightness' and great stamina, better beathing, euphoria, and I was more "ripped" - HOWEVER, I wasn't big at all. I weighed 160 at the time.


Me 60-70% Raw. 164 pounds.

I weight 205 now. I've gained more muscle mass, and to tell you the truth, I couldn't have ever done it on Raw. YEs, I gained bodyfat, and I am implementing my old "Raw" ways to help me get leaner, more fit, ect. As far as why people get "Weaker" on the raw food diet, I have yet anyone to explain this to me. I am still not %100 and I doubt I ever will be, considering my favorite guru (Roger haske) admits he too, supplements with B12. But OH NO! Supplements are bad and a product of corporate industrial america! WE must stick to our leaf eating roots and sway from any factory generated substances!!!

I hope you guys kind of catch my drift here. Now I may seem ANTI-RAW, but there is a lot of un-answered questions as far as athletes go, and I hope as time passes we can get more answers, but if not, whatever, do what you gotta do. I'm gonna try and do this raw thing, I'm gonna try and kick past this "Detox" stage, and if I feel in a year or so that if it is wrecking more then helping, I guess I will just know the truth for myself.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2006 08:44AM by darkw00ds.

huh I can onluy edit a post 3 times? the hell?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2006 09:02AM by darkw00ds.

NOTE: THE MODERATORS DECIDED TO LET ME ONLY EDIT A POST 3 TIMES FOR SOME REASON, SO I HAVE TO POST ANOTHER CORRECTION...LAME..


I have to agree with Nedsin on everything. I tried to come here for answers but I basically got the "IT's detox" or "you must lose all your original 'fake' muscle" before you gain real "Raw" muscle," as fruitarion put it. I find it pretty insulting that all my hard work busting my ass in the gym to get my bench max up was called "FAKE" just because I was eating chicken and rice at the time. WHATEVER! Just because somebody gains strength digesting a food of different cell-structure, does not mean their strength is "FAKE" or false; it just means they gained strength through a different FUEL. - I find it funny that the biggest guys on raw food diet, were previous bodybuilders. (They got their muscle mass from real protein sources..) THEN became raw. I have 2 Examples of this for proof if you want.




Daniel C Docto, formerly did some "bodybuilding", a muy thai instructor and "Raw food" health promoter, He is all about living foods. Take note though, that he too was once "SAD" in his 20's, and during that time is when he did his "bodybuilding". Visit his website [www.thaibox.net]



I'm sure you've all read about shannon. Take note though, all through his life up to his 20's he was S.A.D. and gained all of his muscle with normal protein, like any normal bodybuilder. He also complained of bodyfat at the time, and didn't get lean like this untill after it was he did his raw-transition. You can find this site on Storm's webpage.

But what does this tell ME? That if you want to get some bulk, you need to get more calories/protein, and it's damn near impossible to do that unless you EAT high caloric foods, and most raw food is low-caloric but very dense and heavy. So you can eat untill you're FULL, but doesn't mean you have eaten enough CALORIES. I would like to see a person try to do a standard 4,000 calorie BULK on raw food diet. <i>(About 40 Bananas a day)</i> - Ya'll see where I'm coming from here? Who really possibly can eat that much?

I kind of get pissed off and fed up with people telling me to go buy some exotic plant or berry or leaf, and grind it up into a powder and make a protein shake out of it, when Clearly I can run down to GNC and grab some whey protein and get it done and over with ten times quicker. It annoys me that Raw foodist and zealots are promoting that you can bulid muscle on the raw food diet, when in all reality, you pretty much CANT! and if you do, you were already skinny and probably got more TONED. - The Raw food diet can only get you RIPPED, or MAINTAIN muscle. I bet there is not one person on this forum that can tell me they gained mass from the RAW FOOD DIET, because you CANT!

The best looking and most athletic people on the RAW-FOOD-DIETin my opinion follow the 80/10/10 rule, wich is pretty much frutarion, but not strictly. (Mostly carbs, fruits ect.) - They look good because their bodies are drained of excess SALTS, FATS, and water retention. They have lots of nutrients to keep them bouncing, healthy, radiant ect.. But does that mean thats where they got their muscles in the first place? I doubt it!

I agree with Nedsin, because I am in the process of "Cutting' and have expericned a feeling of weakness and muscle loss DURING my entire removal of animal protein sources. THIS I learn is a natural part of cutting or calorie cutting, so I don't mind. I get pissed off because they say I have an "ego" complex, or a psychological problem because I want to look good? What's up with that? Everybody wants to look good! They say "Our natural bodies must take the shape they would in nature.." blah blah blah blah, well I'm sorry this isn't exactly SURVIVAL, we aren't stranded on an island, and if we WERE, we'd probably be curryin' up some fish to survive as well. Everybody on those survival shows are skinny, malnourished looking, and appear weak! So please do not keep using that PLUG against us who are Athletic, because it's very annoying. For God sakes, we're communicating over the INTERNET. Technology that far exceeds your ancestral ideals, yet you say I am being unnatural because I want a healthy physique? And to whoever said that WEIGHTS are not natural I just laughed. ARe you serious? So do you wake up in the morning, put on your sheepskin underwear, arm your spear and dagger and go hunting in the wilderness? How can you knock the weights man? I dont' get it! Unless you are living in the jungle free of any society influence, please stop using the "grass roots" example to prove your point. And even then, a caveman who lifted rocks routinely VS a cavemen who didn't, would clearly be the dominant hunter in the tribe. (OR fruit collector, worker, ect whatever you wanna believe)

ANYWAYS, this does not matter. Wanting somthing just leads me to seek advice, and answers, and so far all I get is "Try this omega3 alpha mega omega 7ten algae drink" or "Try this HEMP powder mixture"; right, like our ancestors drank hemp protien powder shakes. LOL. - Since when did our ancestoral cavepeople collect Algea, crush it into powder, and use their ancient blender to make an ancient historic energy drink? How is it people get energy off of lettuce when it only has like 100 calories in a pound? Does anyone understand me here? How come people always use the Gorilla and Elephant/Cow analogy, that they are the "Strongests beasts in the land" yet fail to acknowledge the thousands of other meat-eating species in the world? (Cheetah, super endurance) or Wolves, who hunt in packs to take down much larger animals, fill up on meat, and dont eat for days, and eat meat again again again.. ect. So when people say to me that everything is TOXIC I just laugh, because we got 5 billion people in this world right now eating meat/grains and living normal lives. As if eating fish, rice, and some steamed veggies is so TOXIC, then why is this a large portion of asia? The healthiest nation in the world?

I still havn't gotten an answer as to what EXACTLY fruitarion one eats in an entire day. I was reading his forum, and somebody asked what EXACTLY and HOW MUCH he eats in a day, to wich he replied a swaying answer like "it doth not matter what one eats, but the essence and flow of your spirit...." or "follow your path to truth light, your body will let you know" - yada yada. Well if he FOLLOWED our body, then we would be eating fast food and milkshakes, because we ALL get those craving's, so that ANSWER just isn't enough. (No offense Fruitarionone, I'm just saying people need specifics somtimes!!)

And speaking of Specifics, take Doug Graham for instances. WE all know who he is. HE told me online one time, (I happened to catch him logging on his AIM NAME about 3 yrs ago) - that he can sit down and eat about 20 oranges in a row. WTF!!!!!! Who doest hat? HOW?? Is this why raw fooders don't like to be specific? Because they dont want to tell people that they need to eat 20-50 fruits in a row just to maintain a below-skinny physique? Answers please!

ANYWAYS......

It is strictly in my opinion, that one cannot gain size or mass from this diet, but that can get very "cut" or "lean" - AS far as muscle loss goes, I have to say Bryan explained it best as he said "The water and fat needs to be flushed out" or somthing along that lines, and I agree with that. I was only 40-70% raw and I experienced that feelign of "lightness' and great stamina, better beathing, euphoria, and I was more "ripped" - HOWEVER, I wasn't big at all. I weighed 160 at the time.


Me 60-70% Raw. 164 pounds.

I weight 205 now. I've gained more muscle mass, and to tell you the truth, I couldn't have ever done it on Raw. YEs, I gained bodyfat, and I am implementing my old "Raw" ways to help me get leaner, more fit, ect. As far as why people get "Weaker" on the raw food diet, I have yet anyone to explain this to me. I am still not %100 and I doubt I ever will be, considering my favorite guru (Roger haske) admits he too, supplements with B12. But OH NO! Supplements are bad and a product of corporate industrial america! WE must stick to our leaf eating roots and sway from any factory generated substances!!!

I hope you guys kind of catch my drift here. Now I may seem ANTI-RAW, but there is a lot of un-answered questions as far as athletes go, and I hope as time passes we can get more answers, but if not, whatever, do what you gotta do. I'm gonna try and do this raw thing, I'm gonna try and kick past this "Detox" stage, and if I feel in a year or so that if it is wrecking more then helping, I guess I will just know the truth for myself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2006 09:07AM by darkw00ds.

I don't get your point ....everybody pretty much starts off on cooked food...from birth..

darkwoods "?"

Quote

or "Try this HEMP powder mixture"; right, like our ancestors drank hemp protien powder shakes. LOL. Since when did our ancestoral cavepeople collect Algea, crush it into powder, and use their ancient blender to make an ancient historic energy drink?

even though it doesnt really matter what our ancestors ate, they DID INDEED eat hemp (and probably hemp protien shakes) definitely before whey protien shakes. And algae from the very beggining... and Aztec runners (people who would run accross the South American continent to deliver messages) would eat exclusively spirulina wafers. (not to say Aztecs are at the "very beggining"

1 oz. of steak has about 8 grams of protein, and 48 calories
1 oz. of spirulina has about 16 grams of protein and 82 calories
[www.nutritiondata.com]

Quote

How come people always use the Gorilla and Elephant/Cow analogy, that they are the "Strongests beasts in the land" yet fail to acknowledge the thousands of other meat-eating species in the world? (Cheetah, super endurance) or Wolves, who hunt in packs to take down much larger animals, fill up on meat, and dont eat for days, and eat meat again again again.. ect.

heh. I see you've read my posts (except I didnt say gorillas or cows are the strongest animals, who cares about that, although, a chimpanzee of your wieght would kick your ars). All of these animals are eating wild rawfood, wild raw meat, wild raw plant food... that is the difference. btw the gazelle has more endurance than the cheetah, the cheetah's simply faster.

Quote

Im gonna try and do this raw thing, I'm gonna try and kick past this "Detox" stage, and if I feel in a year or so that if it is wrecking more then helping, I guess I will just know the truth for myself.

good luck. i hope you figure it out!





Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2006 10:37AM by innervegetable.

I would highly suggest to anyone wanting more information about bodybuilding and Raw Foods to check out MATT MONARCH, hes 31, been on 100% vegan raw food diet for 6 yrs and is incredibly strong, fit and muscular ! Heres his site for reference WWW.RAWSPIRIT.ORG

Dave

Dave,

Matt Monarch is truly not a good example. While he is an excellent role model he was blessed with good genetics. Based on his book, Raw Spirit, he doesn't even exercise or feel a need to so he's really not a good example.

To everyone else, I find nothing wrong with supplements like Maca Powder, Hemp Powder or any of the others that many of us have in our diets. However, any supplement, must be looked at it as just that and used in moderation. Don't overdue it on any supplement.

A few good websites to see folks that have built up some bulk on raw foods are:


[www.rawpowerinfo.com] for Matthew Goodman's story

and Mathew Grace

[matthewgrace.homestead.com]

Marcos

Go Vegan for your life, your health, the planet and, most importantly, the animals that we share this wonderful world with!

The amount of hype about B12 out there is amazing given how few people die from B12 deficiencies. Pernicious anemia is the disease one gets when one has B12 deficiency. This is one of several anemias, including Hemolytic anemia, Idiopathic aplastic anemia, Immune hemolytic anemia, Megaloblastic anemia, Secondary aplastic anemia, Sickle cell anemia.

In 2004, ALL anemia deaths in the US came to 4569. This is compared to 550270 deaths from cancer, 72815 from diabetes, 862800 from cardiovascular disease, 123884 from chronic lower respiratory disease, 42762 from kidney disease, 108694 from accidents, 31647 from suicide, and 16611 from murder. The total number of deaths that years was 2,398,365 (from the National Vital statistics Report, Vol 54 No 19, "Deaths: Preliminary Data for 2004".

Here are some notes based on research (w/ references) of veganism & B12:

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From: Chuck (ip071-1-22.dialup.edisontel.com)

Subject: other info on B12

Date: July 12, 2003 at 12:33 am PST

In Reply to: Some B12 thread links from old posts not showing here posted by Janie on July 11, 2003 at 10:07 pm:

1) It's impossible to cause a B12 deficiency in animals (primate especially) , even when they're fed for several years in a purified diet without B12

"Siddons, F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

"Siddons, R.C at al. The experimental production of vitamin B12 deficiency in the baboon"

"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

2) It's possible to lower the level of B12 in chimps and other animals fed in a purified diet without B12 sources when they're injected with ampicillin and other antibiotics

"Siddons, F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

"Siddons, R.C at al. The experimental production of vitamin B12 deficiency in the baboon"

"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

3) Studied vegetarian men have more hemoglobin than meat eaters, and vegan had even more than vegetarian as they had lower values for erythrocyte and higher values for corpuscular volume.

4) No serious study in medicine literatures showed that there were B12 deficiency in non-smoker that has been vegan for more than 15 years.

5) No serious scientific studies in medicine literature showed that vegan children had lower vitamin B12 (while the wrong misleading conclusions showed this)

6) All the vegan has higher erythrocyte folate concentration and normal vitamin B12 level.

7) The non supplementing vegan showed no macrocytosis or microcytosis, no poly-segmented neutrophils and the level was 180 ng/l were deficiency is seen only under 85 ng/l.

"Shane B, Stokstad et al. Vitamin B12-folate interrelationships"

"Ellis,Montegriffo et al. Veganism, clinical findings and investigations. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition"

"Ellis, F.R.; Mumford, P. ~ The nutritional status of vegans and vegetarians"

8) The time studied people had been on the vegan diet range from several years to 35 years.

9) Ten vegan subjects that showed normal or higher level of B12 had been breast fed by vegan mothers.

10) The B12 level of those taking B12 supplements was not much more higher than those that has never taking supplements (321M + 60SE ng/l > 253M + 19SE ng/l)

"Chanarin et al. Vitamin B12 studies in total vegetarians"

"Shane B, Stokstad et al. Vitamin B12-folate interrelationships"

"Ellis,Montegriffo et al. Veganism, clinical findings and investigations. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition"

"Ellis, F.R.; Mumford, P. The nutritional status of vegans and vegetarians"

"JE Cotes, JM Dabbs, AM Hall et al. possible effect of a vegan diet upon lung function and the cardio-respiratory response to submaximal exercise in healthy women"

10b) They failed to find any clinical or hematological evidence of vitamin BI2 deficiency in their studies none of the vegan people studied had vitamin B12 deficient. The studies found no lack of B12 in vegans. The studies found no deficiency of B12 in vegans = 80 ng/dl after 5 years of monitoring

11) There have been few cases in which B12 deficiency in a vegan caused damage to the nerves and spinal cords and they were showed to be due to gastro-enteritis and other pathological conditions, some meat eater relatives showed the same problem and the same low B12 level.

12) Gastric, intestinal, liver organic substances of both primates animals fed for more than three years in a diet without source of vitamin B12 and vegan human had been extracted and showed high content of vitamin B12 and in vitro the extracted organisms showed to manufacture vitamin B12. Both the men and the primate animals had high/normal level of B12.

13) Primates animals fed with a purified diet with B12 supplements showed no differences in folate, and B12 level from chimps fed without B12 sources.

"Siddons, F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

"Siddons, R.C at al. The experimental production of vitamin B12 deficiency in the baboon"

"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

14) Cow and other mammals don't take B12 from the soil. Experiments conducts on these animals showed that their B12 level was still high after three years on a purified diet without B12 sources. Their intestinal compounds showed to contain organisms that in vitro produced B12.

15) Both in man and animals not eating vitamin b12 sources microorganisms able to produce B12 had been isolated.

16) Those not taking B12 supplements showed more micro-organism concentration able to produce in their stomachs and intestines than those taking B12 supplement.

"Mickelsen et al - Intestinal synthesis of vitamins in the nonruminant"

"F. Jacob et al. Vitamin B12 nutrition and metabolism in the baboon"

Albert, M.J et al. - Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria"

17) Experiments carried out on vegans showed that B12 manufactured by bacterial flora in the stomach and intestines (not colon) are highly absorbed in the ileum

"Albert, M.J.; Mathan, V.I.; Baker, S.J. ~ Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria"

18) Anaerobic Ci perfringens produced the highest level of B12.

18a)Only 10% of yeast microorganisms produce 1.0 ng/ml of B12.

18b)49% of anaerobic bacteria produce 10ng/ml of B12.

19) Anaerobic bacteria in the mouth produce high level of B12 also.

20) Cobamides cultures have been isolated from the liver of primates.

21) Specker Radioessay is known to be ineffective when need to individuate the TRUE B12 from ANALOGUE USELESS B12.

22) All the studies that showed that meat, eggs, milk and cheese are high source of absorbable vitamin B12 have been carried out using Specker Radioessay method.

23) Ochromonas malhamensis is the most precise and accurate method to trace B12 in food and individuate the analogue from the human utilizable.

24) Laboratory head Dr Fukuoca and H Barker, found that B12 content of meat, liver, eggs, cheese, milk was 99% less than what SP showed and found zero human utilizable B12 in all these foods once they were tested with Ochromonas malhamensis instead of Specker Radioessay.

Ochromonas malhamensis is rarely used because it's not easy to manage and it costs too much, that's why every food composition table of utilizable by man B12 in food is wrong and false.

25) Vegetables and many fruits (even when washed) show to contain B12.

Usually plant foods have cobamides ATCC 9614 cultures producing this vitamin.

25a) When tested, these food are processed in acid, added cyanide and exposed to heat, doing so all the anaerobic bacteria are destroyed. That's why we are told that plants food do not contain B12 wile they do contain it.

25b) As G Ruth stated the medium becomes too acid for accurate resulting when testing B12 content of plants food.

26) It's impossible to find B vitamins in isolation. Where there's vitamin B1, there also vitamin B6 and B12. All plants containing vitamin B contain B12 as well.

27) The B12 found on vegetables when proper methods of finding are used is not analogue, but utilizable by man.

28) Mt. Sinai showed that when a diet is too high in fat and protein the B12 need is tripled.

29) It was possible to induce mild vitamin B12 deficiency in primate animals, by raising their fatty acid level over 30%.

Dear Nedsin and Darkw00ds,

Innervegetable had a pretty good idea to compare an ounce of spirulina with an ounce of steak. So I thought I'd do the same thing comparing raw wheat germ with whey. Here's some of what I came up with from www.nutritiondata.com:

1/2 cup (58 g) of wheat germ, crude has:
212 Calories, 13.3 g Protein, 1.1 mg Thiamin, .3 mg Riboflavin, 3.9 mg Niacin, .75 mg Vitamin B6, 162 mcg Folate, 0 mcg Vitamin B12, 22.5 mg Calcium, 3.6 mg Iron, 138 mg Magnesium, 484 mg Phosphorus, 513 mg Potassium, 6.9 mg Sodium, 7 mg Zinc, .45 mg Copper, 7.6 mg, Manganese, 46 mcg Selenium.

1/2 cup (73 g) of dried whey has:
256 Calories, 9.4 g Protein, .4 mg Thiamin, 1.6 mg Riboflavin, .9 mg Niacin, .4 mg Vitamin B6, 8.7 mcg Folate, 1.7 mcg Vitamin B12, 577 mg Calcium, .67 mg Iron, 128 mg Magnesium, 676 mg Phosphorus, 1508 mg Potassium 782, mg Sodium, 1.9 mg Zinc, .05 mg Copper, 0.0 mg Manganese, 19.7 mcg Selenium.

CONCLUSIONS:

The Calories from raw wheat germ are about the same as the Calories from whey.

There's more Protein, Thiamin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Folate, Iron, Magnesium, Zinc, Copper, Manganese, and Selenium from raw wheat germ , but more Calcium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, and B12 from whey.

If you decide to go for wheat germ, you can easily make up for the Calcium, Phosphorus and Potassium from other vegan raw foods. For Calcium, it is interesting to note that 1/4 cup unhulled sesame seeds has more Calcium than 1 whole cup of milk. You can blend them if you don't have the patience to chew them. For Phosphorus, there's sunflower seeds. For potassium, there is of course bananas. You probably don't need more salt, but there are raw salt products available. I take a B12 supplement (methylcobalamin, NOT cyanocobalamin), but I've been 100% Vegan for 20 years next month. I went 15 years without B12, and that's the only supplement I take. During those 20 years, I was always at least 80% raw, 100% raw for 2 1/2 years at one point, 100% raw again since March of this year while starting my running program during which I've come from just walking to running 6 miles at least 5 days a week (so for whatever it's worth, I definitely have built muscle on just vegan raw food).

It's easy to get 1/2 cup raw wheat germ into your diet if you eat 2 large salads a day and add 1/4 cup wheat germ onto each salad. Or you can do more. One time I put 1/2 cup raw wheat germ on my salad just to see what it was like. It tasted good and digested well, but it was more than I personally needed.

Always buy raw wheat germ prepackaged and then keep it refrigerated. Don't buy it bulk from the bin or it could be rancid, and it's never as good.

Of course if it bothers you that raw wheat germ has gluten, or that it contains enzyme inhibitors (being unsprouted), well then don't buy it. I'm liking sprouted wheat better, but it might not provide you with what you're looking for. Then again, it might.

There are several vitamins that I didn't compare. That's because you can easily get more of those vitamins from fruits and vegetables. For a whopping amount of Vitamin A, eat red leaf lettuce.

I would have checked for hemp seeds, but nutritiondata.com doesn't have information on hemp seeds.

Anyway, if you really do want to try eating vegan raw food exclusively without losing strength, raw wheat germ is definitely something you might want to try. If I were you, I'd experiment with a bunch of stuff. No sense deciding nothing will work until you've tried it all! Raw wheat germ IS traditionally a body builders' food, but you young whippersnappers just seem to enjoy trying to reinvent the wheel! LOL!

I don't agree with absolutely everything Fruitarianone says, but he and others definitely have a really good point that temporarily, you could lose strength while your body adjusts to a new diet (call it detox or whatever) - and raw vegan is a RADICAL change if you've been eating any meat or dairy at all.

Try visiting www.nutritiondata.com, and you should be able to gain confidence from knowing you can get all the essential nutrients from vegan raw food that you ever got from meat and dairy (except B12).

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2006 04:37AM by Ally.

To Bryan,

I found your more recent information on B12 very interesting. You seem to have done a lot more research on it than Vivian Vetrano. I intend to check out your information, and I'd love not to have to take a B12 supplement!

I hope nobody else references that Vetrano article again though, because I'll probably feel again like I have to say something! Grrrr! I LIKE FACTS! Thanks for posting.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2006 04:55AM by Ally.

Ally Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1/2 cup (73 g) of dried whey has:
> 256 Calories, 9.4 g Protein, .4 mg Thiamin, 1.6 mg
> Riboflavin, .9 mg Niacin, .4 mg Vitamin B6, 8.7
> mcg Folate, 1.7 mcg Vitamin B12, 577 mg Calcium,
> .67 mg Iron, 128 mg Magnesium, 676 mg Phosphorus,
> 1508 mg Potassium 782, mg Sodium, 1.9 mg Zinc, .05
> mg Copper, 0.0 mg Manganese, 19.7 mcg Selenium.


I dont know what whey you use, but the kind I bought is 40 grams of protein and only 200 calories for 2 scoops. It's called ON's whey, and is pretty popular. DId you purposefly use the crappiest whey you could find as an example? Just curious.