HygieneGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would highly suggest to anyone wanting more
> information about bodybuilding and Raw Foods to
> check out MATT MONARCH, hes 31, been on 100%
> vegan raw food diet for 6 yrs and is incredibly
> strong, fit and muscular ! Heres his site for
> reference WWW.RAWSPIRIT.ORG
>
> Dave

No offense bro, but I didn't find any bodybuilding information, nor any pictures of him performing any "incredibly strong" feats. Just a picture of his face. The site is pretty much an effort to sell a book. Thanks anyway.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2006 06:37AM by darkw00ds.

innervegetable Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> darkwoods "?"
>
> even though it doesnt really matter what our
> ancestors ate, they DID INDEED eat hemp (and
> probably hemp protien shakes) definitely before
> whey protien shakes.

OK proof that our ancestors had a shake machine or mixer please? I doubt the word "Shake" existed back in those days. WE didn't have blender's or juicers thousands of years ago, unless by ancestors you mean the 1960's. so please let that one go.



And algae from the very
> beggining... and Aztec runners (people who would
> run accross the South American continent to
> deliver messages) would eat exclusively spirulina
> wafers. (not to say Aztecs are at the "very
> beggining"


Ok yeas, but we are talking about bodybuilding here, not necessarily anyone who "Runs" - We are saying how eating so little calories effects our physique, correct? isn't that the original topic. People say to make all these different protein conncoctions, out of what? Make a protein shake out of leaves and grass? Do you know how much kale it takes to produce 3-5 OZ of "protein shake" or "juice" ?? - WHo has the time to go buy ALGAE tablets, or loads and loads of kale to make a "kale-shake" or "Algae tablet" shake. I would be spending way too much money, and going through it too quickly. Not to mention, do you know how horrible it tastes?? I'd much rather eat a big salad; AS far as runners go, Most marathon runner's are skeletons anyway, right? Little or not muscle even though they are lean, they are very light and weak. (As far as weight-lifting goes) - And Aztecs ate mostly beans, corn, tomatoes, chile, shrimp, ect..





> heh. I see you've read my posts (except I didnt
> say gorillas or cows are the strongest animals,
> who cares about that, although, a chimpanzee of
> your wieght would kick your ars). All of these
> animals are eating wild rawfood, wild raw meat,
> wild raw plant food... that is the difference. btw
> the gazelle has more endurance than the cheetah,
> the cheetah's simply faster.

My point is, meat is meat. Many people say Gorillas are so strong because they eat grass. I'm just saying MEat, raw or not contains lots of protein, and there are many animals that eat MOSTLY meat that have incredible endurance. I dont get your point in comparing a Gazelle to a cheetah, basically you just admitted the meat-eating cheetah is slower then a herbivore? - Basically proving my point that for some reason people w/o meat or diff proteins in their diet are weaker. Correct? That's what me and NEdsin are trying to get to the bottom of. WE know raw-food diet is good for endurance, (at least I do) but what about for gaining strength, or in the long run keeping mass?

The Fruitarian One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't get your point ....everybody pretty much
> starts off on cooked food...from birth..


Ok, Maybe you should re-read my article to understand my point. The point is, people who are "raw' and have mass, got it from previously being "S.A.D." - Does that make sense to you now? Also, if you could, (I doubt) would you give us an example of what you eat daily as a "fruitarian"?

Quote

I dont get your point in comparing a Gazelle to a cheetah, basically you just admitted the meat-eating cheetah is slower then a herbivore? - Basically proving my point that for some reason people w/o meat or diff proteins in their diet are weaker. Correct?

huh, hello, my exact words were "the gazelle has more endurance than the cheetah,
the cheetah's simply faster".

sorry but you sound like george bush. What I said has nothing to do with your interpretation of my point or reality.

Quote

what me and NEdsin are trying to get to the bottom of. WE know raw-food diet is good for endurance, (at least I do) but what about for gaining strength, or in the long run keeping mass?

well, we could continue our discussion about body building elements, protein requirnment, diet & physiology yadayada if you would like.

Quote

people who are "raw' and have mass, got it from previously being "S.A.D."

this is inaccurate. AND raw food eaters CAN build mass on raw. think about it.
you don't NEED animal protien (even to get "mass" btw I'm not trying to be dogmatic, or tell you what you SHOULD do. Build your body out of whatever you do. Just keep an open mind, you might learn something

Now, I'd rather be eating a large salad...

Why do you doubt that I could give you a daily account of my daily intake....people ask me this all the time...I'm currently on watermelon.

Futhermore if you spent as much energy into just working out as you put into being rude....I think you would learn a lot more...

I don't think you realise that people are trying to help you.....

I'm not holding myself up as an expert but check out this link

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

It's so much more fun just to get on with it and learn for youself....

*Sigh*



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2006 08:17PM by shep252.

[alissacohen.com]

Scroll down to the bottom of Alissa Cohen's B4 and After photo's. Pretty good raw muscle!
Regs
Anna

Dear Darkw00ds,

Sorry about that. I hope you will look back at the first paragraph of my post and note that I got the information about dried whey from www.nutritiondata.com. - not from any commercial whey product. Nutritiondata.com gets their information from the United States Dept. of Agriculture (USDA). If you check the site for whey, you will see that I used the dried whey with the highest protein content.

So hey, I did my best! Just letting you know I didn't "purposely use the crappiest whey I could find as an example". .........Since you asked!

Unfortunately, nutritiondata.com doesn't have results for every different whey product on the market. I assumed (wrongly) that all whey products were pretty much the same. Again, sorry about that.

Given the info from the USDA available from www.nutritiondata.com, I wonder if it's possible that the ONs product contains other high protein ingredients that contribute to its high protein content.

As far as gaining mass and strength on a raw vegan diet, I think most people are assuming that since you're on this forum, you're open to suggestions. As Fruitarianone said above, we're just trying to help. With that in mind, I will still suggest that if you are thinking of going raw again now, you might consider giving the raw wheat germ a try.

By the way, spirulina tastes really good, and you can buy it in the powder, not just in tablets. I will agree that bluegreen algae tastes pretty bitter even though it might be good for you.

You said above, "People say to make all these different protein concoctions, out of what?...leaves and grass?" Wow that's great - classic! To answer your question, maybe try Thor's Raw Power Superfood Blend. If protein shakes are what you're into, it could be even better than ONs. You might check it out if only to let us know how terrible it is!

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/2006 09:01PM by Ally.

nedsin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> David Zane Mason, I followed the link to the
> Fruitatarian site, Thanks very much, but I didn't
> see a photo of you, and that is what I thought you
> were trying to show me, since you also said you
> were the most healthiest guy over all. Where is
> your photo? I'd love to compare with you.

how can you tell how healthy somebody is by looking at a photo? You seem to be confusing 'healthiness' with your own personal image of an asthetically pleasing body.

I wonder, is this the case of false expectations? I tend to think that good looks follow from good health, so perhaps that's where the focus should be? Also, I wonder, why would one want to look big? I know I know, I am a woman, and women tend to prefer being smaller. However, I never find those big muscled men as appealing as those with nice, toned, moderate-size body and their brain and smile bigger than their muscles.

Gosia


RawGosia channel
RawGosia streams

Your right rawgosia

I personaly think that it's also ego, vanity, self esteem, etc for some people....and trying to live a raw lifestyle by cooked food standards!

rawgosia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wonder, is this the case of false expectations?
> I tend to think that good looks follow from good
> health, so perhaps that's where the focus should
> be? Also, I wonder, why would one want to look
> big? I know I know, I am a woman, and women tend
> to prefer being smaller. However, I never find
> those big muscled men as appealing as those with
> nice, toned, moderate-size body and their brain
> and smile bigger than their muscles.
>
> Gosia

personally, i'm not a fan of body building since it's all about aesthetics and not about functional strength.

but why would someone want to be bigger and stronger in terms of functional strength?.... to make a long story short, i backed down from fighting someone the other day that i probably could have beaten, just because he was twice my size and i couldn't get that fact out of my mind.

That's human instinct!....that stuff happens in the wild too....females will generalypick the bigger stronger looking males to mate with....males will generaly back down to the bigger males, etc...

Hey, first of all I'd like to thank all of you for arguing my post for me, (WoW) I think all of you have valid input, and I've chased down the links to the guy's who have books and web sites to sell me on their perfect way of living life and eating raw, but quite frankly, I'm not impressed with their photo's, which are mostly of their faces or blurred out from a distance? and yes, you can tell how healthy someone is from a photo, why do you think people who are buying a race horse, look at the photo, then the horse, then the hoofs, teeth and eye's, coat etc. But don't let me get you all going crazy here.. First of all, (WE are NOT GORILLA's or Horses), WoW!- and no it's not natural to lift a weight, but neither is it natural, to turn on a light bulb, or the computer you just turned on to look at to see, this post, so if you want to be 100% raw, then turn off your computer, throw it out the window and drive your car off a cliff and walk everywhere, and from now on, don't go to work, and don't use money, (trade your talent), for value to value worth. People didn't do this sort of raw food thing in the past, it's not a true way of life, it is not, people and other animal's have alway's eaten animal's as well as fruits and vegetables, cave men ate animal's. We are just trying this out to see if it works or not? It helps some people feel better, and yet, some it makes them feel a lot worse. Some of you people are a little Obsessed with this raw food concept as much as you would be if it was a religion, (by the way, is a belief), not a fact or word of god. How many of you who are raw foodist's still drink alcohol and smoke cigarette's, drink coffee and or take drugs? There is too much hatred and anger on this post for me to be convinced that raw foodist's have the complete answer's to complete health, and yes, having muscle is part of being healthy, not being an anorexic. All I wanted to know, is how to get more protein so I didn't lose my (hard earned lean, muscle), which by the way was not due to toxic food, but the cleanest quality food I could find, (which led me to the raw food idea in the first place). I would love to post a photo of myself, on this site, (not out of vanity for you hater's of me), where is the moderator who can just do this for me?, if I e-mal her a photo? Sorry about his coment, but the Fruitarian One seems ego based in his philosophy, I'm glad he feels he's on his spiritual path with watermelon? But his genetics, he's not aware of that he's been blessed with, have been the reason he looks good. (I look better, from hard work), but not all of us are the same, are we? I don't care what you say, watermelon will not give you an Arnold Schwartzanager body, go ask Arnold. By the way, I'm not a giant obscene huge guy, I'm a small beautifully cut guy that everyone admires in the gym. I'm the one you'll all love to hate because you can't do it. I've followed a more diabetic approach to my diet, using the most cleanest and organic ptotein foods I can find. Too many carbohydrates will make you look lose, skiny, saggy, fat, (avocado's & oils), or old, I may stick to what I liked about my previous diet and add what I like about the raw food diet, (which is not perfect), by the way, no diet is perfect. And as for EXERCISE, this is the part of everyone's over all health that should be the (main foundation) for all of you, the first and most importatnt, building block of your day should be exercise with weights, everyday, because without it you will look and feel more lousy..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2006 11:39PM by nedsin.

Take it easy dude, chill out.

If you ask for people's help, don't then rubbish their efforts to help you.

Cheers,
J





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2006 11:43PM by Jose.

By the way, go ahead and hate me, I know you will. Have fun.

Jose, you are a man of many words, wow, hey chill out is a cool phrase, but used way too much, like the word love.

nedsin,

I have not seen the hatred you say youve encountered. I luv ya

Hey one very important fact, most people here are transitioning and figuring out what really works. I suggest you do not stereotype everyone who eats raw based on people here (who are also seeking advise, like you are!)

Sounds to me like you have been looking into what this raw diet is all about, reading forums and various websites, maybe some books, right? You will not be able to sum it up, as you have attempted to do, until maybe. you try it yourself for several years, get past the physical changes and detox, AND find the right raw diet that works for you, everyone btw is different. What works for me will not neccessarily work for you.

The raw diet may not work you. You must be open to new paradigms, just dont assume that if you are not ready or able to eat raw that it wont work for others. OK?

good luck, on your path, seriously, do what makes you happy, healthy, whatever "arcs your spark"

...more raw people







[www.organicathlete.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/07/2006 12:21AM by juve.

Nedsin,
Have you tried increasing your intake of root vegetables? Particularly in the evenings. Carrots,Beets,Peanuts etc.
During the day other vegetables broccoli, cauliflower?

Nedsin:

-Sorry I didn't see you're post! Here's one picture of me:

[www.greensingles.com]

-If you get on the rawfood.com forum (you may need to register) and do a search for 'Davidzanemason' you should see some more pix of me.....and/or GIR! What does the 'G' stand for? I don't know.......

-You can also ask Narz if I'm in decent shape...he's seen me in action! Ha! ha!

-David Mason

Sorry, I have nothing constructive to add here. I am posting because I strongly suspect that the original post is a troll.

Victoria Boutenko's book "Green For Life" has a chapter in it about protein. She makes a very convincing case for Green Smoothies everyday. (Not juiced, but blended so you get the fiber.)

Anyway, this chapter conveys the general idea that there are high quantities of amino acids in dark leafy greens, and that these amino acidss are actually superior to animal protein for use by the human body. The animal protein has to be broken down before it can be used, and leaves alot of garbage and toxins in its wake, whereas the plant amino acids can be used by the body directly. She gives a few examples of greens such as kale, endive and lambsquarters (a weed).

I saw a video called Eating that also listed a lengthy number of plants that have significant amounts of protein in them, many had much more than beef! The video also elucidated all of the diseases we are getting with our meat diets and how the vegan diet can reverse these severe problems. (There is also a section about how these unfortunate animals in the farms and ranches are treated.)

All of the protein anyone needs can be assimilated in a superior form and high quantity through the raw vegan diet, even a bodybuilder.

The Fruitarian One Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's human instinct!....that stuff happens in
> the wild too....females will generalypick the
> bigger stronger looking males to mate
> with....males will generaly back down to the
> bigger males, etc...

exactly.
if i was bigger i wouldn't have been worrying (as much) about not having insurance to replace any teeth that might be knocked out.

nedsin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, first of all I'd like to thank all of you for
> arguing my post for me, (WoW) I think all of you
> have valid input, and I've chased down the links
> to the guy's who have books and web sites to sell
> me on their perfect way of living life and eating
> raw, but quite frankly, I'm not impressed with
> their photo's, which are mostly of their faces or
> blurred out from a distance? and yes, you can tell
> how healthy someone is from a photo, why do you
> think people who are buying a race horse, look at
> the photo, then the horse, then the hoofs, teeth
> and eye's, coat etc. But don't let me get you all
> going crazy here.. First of all, (WE are NOT
> GORILLA's or Horses), WoW!- and no it's not
> natural to lift a weight, but neither is it
> natural, to turn on a light bulb, or the computer
> you just turned on to look at to see, this post,
> so if you want to be 100% raw, then turn off your
> computer, throw it out the window and drive your
> car off a cliff and walk everywhere, and from now
> on, don't go to work, and don't use money, (trade
> your talent), for value to value worth. People
> didn't do this sort of raw food thing in the past,
> it's not a true way of life, it is not, people and
> other animal's have alway's eaten animal's as well
> as fruits and vegetables, cave men ate animal's.
> We are just trying this out to see if it works or
> not? It helps some people feel better, and yet,
> some it makes them feel a lot worse. Some of you
> people are a little Obsessed with this raw food
> concept as much as you would be if it was a
> religion, (by the way, is a belief), not a fact or
> word of god. How many of you who are raw foodist's
> still drink alcohol and smoke cigarette's, drink
> coffee and or take drugs? There is too much
> hatred and anger on this post for me to be
> convinced that raw foodist's have the complete
> answer's to complete health, and yes, having
> muscle is part of being healthy, not being an
> anorexic. All I wanted to know, is how to get
> more protein so I didn't lose my (hard earned
> lean, muscle), which by the way was not due to
> toxic food, but the cleanest quality food I could
> find, (which led me to the raw food idea in the
> first place). I would love to post a photo of
> myself, on this site, (not out of vanity for you
> hater's of me), where is the moderator who can
> just do this for me?, if I e-mal her a photo?
> Sorry about his coment, but the Fruitarian One
> seems ego based in his philosophy, I'm glad he
> feels he's on his spiritual path with watermelon?
> But his genetics, he's not aware of that he's been
> blessed with, have been the reason he looks good.
> (I look better, from hard work), but not all of us
> are the same, are we? I don't care what you say,
> watermelon will not give you an Arnold
> Schwartzanager body, go ask Arnold. By the way,
> I'm not a giant obscene huge guy, I'm a small
> beautifully cut guy that everyone admires in the
> gym. I'm the one you'll all love to hate because
> you can't do it. I've followed a more diabetic
> approach to my diet, using the most cleanest and
> organic ptotein foods I can find. Too many
> carbohydrates will make you look lose, skiny,
> saggy, fat, (avocado's & oils), or old, I may
> stick to what I liked about my previous diet and
> add what I like about the raw food diet, (which is
> not perfect), by the way, no diet is perfect. And
> as for EXERCISE, this is the part of everyone's
> over all health that should be the (main
> foundation) for all of you, the first and most
> importatnt, building block of your day should be
> exercise with weights, everyday, because without
> it you will look and feel more lousy..


i didn't read the whole thread so this might be a repeat of what someone else said....

i think one of your problems is that you aren't grasping that you are coming from a different mindset from most people here. you see being fit as meaning an individual is healthy, while most people here see them as two separate entities. an individual can look really good on the outside (in reguards to musculature) but be a wreck in terms of health. and yes, exercise is a large part of being healthy.

you are asking about a diet to support a bodybuilder from people that aren't bodybuilders. that's part of the reason why you're not getting answers that satisfy you. furthermore, most people here don't have the same standards as you as to what is considered a good physique.

coming from a body building perspective, i'm sure you do eat clean, healthy food.
however, what may be considered a healthy diet by 99.9% of the general population is not considered healthy or clean by those that espouse a raw food diet. an unprocessed, whole food diet will not be considered healthy or natural here simply because it is cooked. (and i don't think you are going to find many raw foodist that smoke, drink, or do drugs).

Quote

People didn't do this sort of raw food thing in the past, it's not a true way of life, it is not, people and other animal's have alway's eaten animal's as well as fruits and vegetables, cave men ate animal's.

i believe that's open for debate...but i get the sense that you are mixing up raw foodism with veganism. is it possible to build significant muscle on a raw food diet? maybe. it just might be a lot harder and most people are willing to put in the time and effort. but personally, i don't think bulking up is natural so i have my doubts if it is possible on a raw food. is it possible to build muscle on a cooked vegan diet? i definitly believe so.

I hate to say it but I have to say Nedsin kinda refreshed some reality to this board. MOST raw foodist who claim to have muscle are skinny. Me, I dont mind being skinny, I'm into endurance stuff anyways, but as far as muscle goes/bodybuilding, what can ya do?

I know you all probably hate him, and you all probably are taking great offense at our posts or whatever, that's fine. Me personally I won't lost sleep over it. I just find it interesting to see someone finally who notices a few things that are out of place here, to notice the "if you are skinny it's because everyone else fat" type of mentallity that is accepted among the forums.

Not to mention people coming to these forums with all these problems and you guys just give the simple answer of "It's detox" - so thats not good enough for me. How many people on this forum are really 100% raw - truley, and don't have the build of abraham lincoln?

As far as the genetics thing go, I have to agree with Nedsin on that one. But who knows, I'm going to include more protein in my diet because without it, like he said, we just become "flabby" and "lose. Anyways thats all I gotta say.

Does anyone know of a good Natual Body Building (RAW FOOD) forum that I can connect with? I've seen the Fruitatarian's site, it's not what I'm looking for, but if you know of something else please let me know, since I'm wasting my time here, some of you have been very pleasant and helpful as you can be. Arugula, thinks I'm a troll in disguise, that's funny since I've been a published model in magazines, What magazines have you been in Arugula?

Monson, please don't assume you know me or know what I'm eating and that my mind set is from another planet, you are so off key here, I'm weary of this kind of response, along with the detox respons, and please don't quote me and re-post my responses, it doesn't make me look up to you, it makes me realize that you didn't understand it the first time around.

Juve, thanks for sending me Charlie Abel's pictures (again), my gosh, I've seen this guy's photo's too many times. I've corresponded with him a few times, he can't seem to give me any advice, especially since I sent him my photo's, he sort of vanished on me. nide guy? or was he jealous?