Just another symptom of living in a polluted, sterile and stressed society. Thats why I take a b12 supp.I will be happy to give it away when we return to a fruitopia paradise free of chems..

[thyroid.about.com]

I remember once Jeff Goldblum's great quote in the "The Big Chill", "Rationalization's are wonderful things, where would we be without them?". It's an interesting study Harley, to be sure. However, your post seems to indicate that the need that vegans have to supplement is tied to what appears to be a prevalence in the general population (I say appears to be because even though the sample size is respectable , 3000 people, one study by itself can't establish a weight of evidence for the general population. It would take multiple studies to do that.)

I think if I'm reading you right, your position is that vegans are no different than anyone else in the general population and whatever B-12 deficiency we might be encountering is the result of pollution . Do I state your position correctly?

If not, please advise. To the extent I have captured it correctly, then my response is that I don't think your correct. Vegans may be at risk because of pollution, that's certainly true. But vegans are also at risk not just because of malabsorption which is what the general population suffers from, but also malnutrition due the absence of Vitamin B-12 in a vegan diet. These are not mutually exclusive and I think it's important for all vegans to understand that if we are deficient it's not only because of pollution but also our diets don't contain B-12, at least in any reliable source (chlorella looks promising though). Vegans are a high risk population for B-12 deficiency both because of possible malabsorption and also malnutrition. B-12 just isn't found in fruits and vegetables or nuts or seeds. The elderly are at particular risk in the general population. So, I'd be intersted in seeing the age breakdown on the study you mentioned. Regarding vegans studied, I'm pretty sure the incidence of B-12 deficiency is much higher than 30 percent. But I will check. [www.aafp.org][www.veganhealth.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 02:50PM by pborst.

here is one small study of vegans ovolacto vegetarians and omnivores. 94 percent of the vegans were B-12 deficient, vs. 64 percent of lactovegetarians, and 20 percent of semivegetarians. This study is not so much authoritative (small sample size, 80) but rather to make the point that incidence of B-12 deficiency among non-B12 supplementing vegans and the general population needs to be considered. We may well be at higher risk. [content.karger.com]

In general, based on one review, vegans as a group have a higher prevalence of B-12 deficiency relative to omnivores. [www.ajcn.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/2010 03:06PM by pborst.

"But vegans are also at risk not just because of malabsorption which is what the general population suffers from, but also malnutrition due the absence of Vitamin B-12 in a vegan diet. These are not mutually exclusive and I think it's important for all vegans to understand that if we are deficient it's not only because of pollution but also our diets don't contain B-12, at least in any reliable source"

Worded that way, I agree. Except we can't assume that every vegan who ends up deficient didn't take a sublingual or get shots, because sometimes those items don't help anyone.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "But vegans are also at risk not just because of
> malabsorption which is what the general population
> suffers from, but also malnutrition due the
> absence of Vitamin B-12 in a vegan diet. These are
> not mutually exclusive and I think it's important
> for all vegans to understand that if we are
> deficient it's not only because of pollution but
> also our diets don't contain B-12, at least in any
> reliable source"
>
> Worded that way, I agree. Except we can't assume
> that every vegan who ends up deficient didn't take
> a sublingual or get shots, because sometimes those
> items don't help anyone.

true enough

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "But vegans are also at risk not just because of
> malabsorption which is what the general population
> suffers from, but also malnutrition due the
> absence of Vitamin B-12 in a vegan diet. These are
> not mutually exclusive and I think it's important
> for all vegans to understand that if we are
> deficient it's not only because of pollution but
> also our diets don't contain B-12, at least in any
> reliable source"
>
> Worded that way, I agree. Except we can't assume
> that every vegan who ends up deficient didn't take
> a sublingual or get shots, because sometimes those
> items don't help anyone.

Yeah that recent study i cant find concludes that vegans are at the most risk and even some of who did take sublingual b12 were still deficient.

I cant see where durian gets it from that vegans are on par with meat eaters for b12 deficiency because any study ive read is exactly the opposite in its findings.

That said i think the safest route would be to take a b12 sublingual as in most cases it suffices.

American vegans might be more apt to get supplemental B-12 keeping their B-12 status on par with the general population.

Australian vegans might get less in supplemented foods --

"Australians have a lifestyle similar to North Americans, but with limited B12 fortified foods. Hokin & Butler (1999) examined Australian Seventh-day Adventist ministers, aged 22-80, who did not take B12 supplements. The results as seen in Table 2, showed vegans to have significantly lower B12 levels (2)."

[www.veganhealth.org]

We've seen Germans tending not to supplement as is common in many places. The US and China, I believe are amoung a handful of countries where vegans test similar to omnivores.

powerlifer Wrote:
> I cant see where durian gets it from that vegans
> are on par with meat eaters for b12 deficiency
> because any study ive read is exactly the opposite
> in its findings.


Where did Durian state that "vegans are on par with meat eaters for B12 deficiency"?

I didn't see that posted.

Here's a low fat raw vegan diet study by US, Washington University, showing the vegan group getting more B12 after choosing the vegan diet option simply because they were encouraged to supplement it --

"Participants were not constrained with regard to their use of vitamin or mineral supplements. However, subjects on the vegan diet were asked to take supplemental vitamin B12, such as any common multivitamin that contains at least 2 g of vitamin B12, if they chose to continue the diet after the 14-wk intervention.

"Dietary Intake
"The low-fat vegan diet was designed to provide approximately 10% of energy from fat, 15% from protein, and 75% from carbohydrate and consisted of grains, vegetables, legumes, and fruits, with no limit on energy intake or portions."

[www.pcrm.org]

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a low fat raw vegan diet study by US,
> Washington University...

-rather, low fat vegan (not raw), the study out of George Washington University.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> > I cant see where durian gets it from that
> vegans
> > are on par with meat eaters for b12 deficiency
> > because any study ive read is exactly the
> opposite
> > in its findings.
>
>
> Where did Durian state that "vegans are on par
> with meat eaters for B12 deficiency"?
>
> I didn't see that posted.

That has been durians conclusion in any b12 thread we have had on here, or on his videos. Which is why he always makes the reference that his meat eating friends all take b12 injections and supps because there just as at risk.

I believe you made that into his conclusion just because he mentions meat eaters and B12; that you are assumign he is equating the two or saying vegans are on par. He has never stated that, that I have heard. You are the only one I have heard state that or conclude that that is what he is stating somehow.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe you made that into his conclusion just
> because he mentions meat eaters and B12; that you
> are assumign he is equating the two or saying
> vegans are on par. He has never stated that, that
> I have heard. You are the only one I have heard
> state that or conclude that that is what he is
> stating somehow.

Nope just check any of his past posts on the issue, that is what he says. Durian has regularly stated that b12 is very common in meat eaters which isnt the truth really as it isnt that common at all. That meat eaters are just as at risk as vegans which is why all his meat eating racing friends take b12 supplementation.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2010 11:58AM by powerlifer.

Stating "b12 deficiency is very common in the general population" does not equal stating "b12 deficiency risk for omnivores is on par with vegans."

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stating "b12 deficiency is very common in the
> general population" does not equal stating "b12
> deficiency risk for omnivores is on par with
> vegans."


But durian didnt state it was very common in the general population, he has made several posts about how b12 deficiency is on par with vegans, which is why all his meat eating racer friends have to supplement b12 like he does. Which is why ive always said the reason why some of these athletes use the b12 injections is for the mild energy/anti-fatigue effects they give rather than them worrying about b12 deficiency. Much how like pop stars do to get through there tours.

In meat eaters b12 deficiency is always usually down to lack of intrinsic factor where as with vegans its usually always down to a lack of dietary intake rather than absorption problems.

Ive still to see any information why durian thinks salt/garlic and chilli reduce b12 levels, not something ive ever read.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/2010 07:36PM by powerlifer.

So, we are missing B12 for different reasons then?

Thanks for topics like this, very informative. This also puts a perspective on our modern lives - going vegan is not a complete solution, it seems.

We need to try and change the world!

...I wonder if there is a study regarding vegans who eat naturally, somewhere in the "rural" surroundings, tropical maybe. I mean, eating fruit right of trees, picking their own food daily. Do they have B12 defficiency?

I dont think you'll find many if any studies rab on those who pick there own food etc. Would be interesting though. Always remember that one study never means conclusion.

But yeah generally meat eaters if they suffer b12 deficiency is down to absorption issues rather than lack of dietary intake. Where as vegans its opposite its almost always down to lack of dietary intake.

Nothing is really a complete solution, although i deem vegan/raw one of the healthiest if you take required steps to prevent nutritional deficiency one being b12. Sublingual supplementation is the best method unless you can gain access to b12 injections.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
he has made several posts
> about how b12 deficiency is on par with vegans,
> which is why all his meat eating racer friends
> have to supplement b12 like he does.


im really, really trying very hard here to explain this as clearly as i can, but i don't know if it's getting through or ever will.

YOU assumed his posts re: meat eaters with B12 deficiency extrapolated into being "on par with vegans."

if i bring up b12 deficiency in meat eaters, i am simply bringing up b12 deficiency in meat eaters.

if i bring up b12 deficiency in meat eaters AND say that meat eaters and vegans have the same incidence of b12 deficiency regardless of cause (which would actually be impossible considering how small a percentage of the population vegans are, but let's forget that), THAT would be equating the two. do you see the difference in teh two statements?

all I can think about now is the Creedence Clearwater Revival (CCR)..

"It ain't me".... lol "Fortunate Son" Powerlifer, best of luck.

Paul

"..when we return to a fruitopia paradise free of chems.. "

An idea is that if we lived in "paradise" we wouldn't need a B-12 supplement even if on a strict plant food diet.

B12 deficiency is rife in western society judging by the clinical studies I continue to cite.

What studies are these, the most up to date one recently showed that b12 deficiency isnt common at all in meat eaters but is rife in vegans and even vegans who supplement with sublingual b12.

Which shocked me a fair bit, as sublingual b12 is regarded as the basic standard of b12 supplementation for vegans. B12 shots will always be better but there hard to get for some and often contain more preservatives and other nasties than the supplements do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2010 10:01AM by powerlifer.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sure you will}, but I believe that B12 is produced from bacteria. Since our societies current medical model is based around the germ idea, we have become obsessed with cleanliness. We only need a very small amount of B12, which we would get if we weren't so diligent in washing our raw fruit and veg. Also, if we have any pets such as a dog for instance, then we most likely get enough B12 form them.
Cheers geo

geo,

Uh, correct, but unless you grow your own produce, I do not recommend being cavalier about commercially farmed produce and not washing it before consuming--you may get B12 from goodness-knows-whose fecal matter, and Hepatitis into the bargain.

Hey Tamukha, your right of course. I wasn't being extreme about it, though my post may have seemed like I was suggesting not to wash food or hands. I was trying to say that we need sooo little B12 that, especially if we are pet owners, a certain amount of B12 bacteria would inadvertently find it's way into our digestive system.
Cheers geo

geo, you just made my day I have three pugs (don't ask me why, not my plan) and I spend a lot of time with them (feed them, walk them, they also work with me on my computer). They destroyed the furniture...so, all that was the price to pay for having B12 up and running? Ok, good deal )

I cant see anyone getting much if any b12 for playing with there dog or there dog running about the house. Maybe if you were to consume the fecal matter but hopefully no one is doing that lol.

powerlife, you just had to spoil that, didn't you? "You don't see how" is not an argument. B12 is IN THE DIRT, as simple as that. Dogs bring dirt in the house, and dogs bodies have more bacteria simply because they are on the floor all the time. You touch dogs, you bring dirt into your mouth. Logical?

Some people just like to @#$%& on other poeple's party.

Haha sorry Rab, its hard to tell if the tone is serious or not on the internet, but i mean you'd have to do alot of licking up on the kitchen floor or your dogs paws to get even a minuscule intake of b12.

Best way to get B12 is.. grow your own carrots (organically, of course, in great humus-rich soil). Pull one up, wipe it on your jeans, and eat it.

Semen and vaginal fluid has the highest concentration of B12 in the human body - another source, perhaps? (I heard this straight from Dr. Gabriel Cousins)

Meat eaters tend to have higher B12 levels since the filth on the meat carries it. (Just go watch any video on meat packing plants)

There are good B12 supplements available. It's worth finding one that works for you.

Live Well, Laugh Often, Love Much
We are all in this together!
Namasté