powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you approached someone in real life who
> drank
> > diet soda but you don't think diet soda is
> > healthy, do you honestly try to derate them
> about
> > their drinking diet soda and pretend that their
> > life decisions are encumbant upon your approval?
>
> > Or is this just an internet thing?
>
>
> Your getting petty and silly again utopian please
> debate rather than this, As i stated above, id
> show them something factual and scientific rather
> than spouting stuff which has no bases other than
> anecdotal theorys.


actually, you don't understand. The person didn't ask your opinion on their diet-soda drinking. The bases, if any, are irrelevant. The person never stated that diet soda was healthy, by the way (not sure if you somehow added that in to that post, too). It's not your concern waht they do or don't do and why.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 08:03PM by Utopian Life.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
>
> If
> > you said i dont like the taste and smell of
> > disgusting garlic id say no problems your bang
> on.
>
>
>
> If someone makes a thread that says, "Do you eat
> garlic?" I would assume people will answer if they
> eat garlic or not. This is VERY different from
> making a thread that says, "Do you eat garlic?
> And if you don't, everyone is entitled to comment
> upon your choice and suggest you post articles in
> support of your preference."
>
> I don't know why you think you're the garlic and
> onion orthorexia diagnoser or what qualifications
> you think you have, but enough is enough.


I gave my opinion based on studies that i think garlic/onion or any other vegetable that i have read proper studies on merits there benefits.

Im not bothering that people answer they dont like garlic/onion leeks etc its personal preference, half of my friends dont and there is no problem there, they dont like the smell fair. But others are trying to make out these foods are bad for your health which is where many are saying your wrong. Orthorexia criteria is someone who gets rid of bad foods(fair) but is also someone who starts getting rid of healthy foods for reasons that are beyond science.

I don't care if 99 people think garlic is healthy and 1 doesn't; it doesn't make their positoin or opinion or experience any less. And it doesn't mean you get a green light to harass them. Is there anything productive you can do with your time?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 08:05PM by Utopian Life.

No but 50 odd+ clinical studies should give some harness if not then im lost here. No one is saying your orthorexic for not including foods you hate thats fine but picking foods that are healthy with pseudoscience then well i dont know how this debate goes on?

Hey the only one harrasing here is you, and the only one getting balchy again is you. Ive done nothing but be calm and about my logical reasoning other than hiss fits coming from yourself because you dont like what im saying. Then debate that with logical explanations other than being balchy.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 08:11PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No but 50 odd+ clinical studies should give some
> harness if not then im lost here. No one is saying
> your orthorexic for not including foods you hate
> thats fine but picking foods that are healthy with
> pseudoscience then well i dont know how this
> debate goes on?
>
> Hey the only one harrasing here is you, and the
> only one getting balchy again is you. Ive done
> nothing but be calm and about my logical reasoning
> other than hiss fits.


Yes, I'm the garlic-free freedom fighter. lol


There are studies that say dairy is healthy. Some people do think cow milk is healthy for humans. Others don't. *shrug* I don't know about you, but I go on with my life.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
because
> you dont like what im saying.


wow, that was impressive! garlic must have given you the power to read minds!!!

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No but 50 odd+ clinical studies should give
> some
> > harness if not then im lost here. No one is
> saying
> > your orthorexic for not including foods you
> hate
> > thats fine but picking foods that are healthy
> with
> > pseudoscience then well i dont know how this
> > debate goes on?
> >
> > Hey the only one harrasing here is you, and the
> > only one getting balchy again is you. Ive done
> > nothing but be calm and about my logical
> reasoning
> > other than hiss fits.
>
>
> Yes, I'm the garlic-free freedom fighter. lol
>
>
> There are studies that say dairy is healthy. Some
> people do think cow milk is healthy for humans.
> Others don't. *shrug* I don't know about you,
> but I go on with my life.


Yeah there sure is but anyone with any degree of intelligence will dissect any studie check whether it was on humans, properly designed, and anything else. You just tend to get abit silly and say you dont know about me. I dont know about you as you obviously cant debate rationally. We've had more than enough proper well designed studies that suggest garlic is healthly. Am i telling you to eat that course im not. If you wish to not include garlic like ive said about 15 times in this debate its ok but if its because you think garlic is bad for your health then i dont know what to say anymore. And i really wish someone would present any data to show me why to not consume garlic/herbs/spices/onions and so on.

I get such scientific statement as garlic/chillis and salt impact your b12 levels, well where do these great scientific statements come from yes nowhere.

I have not read all the above posts, but still I'll add my opinion in here. You can't fill up on onions and garlic, so I'd say when you are healthy you don't need those things.

But if you are feeling ill, have a craving for either or both, have an infection, then you may feel good about adding them to your diet.

Love,
Prism

Prism Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have not read all the above posts, but still
> I'll add my opinion in here. You can't fill up on
> onions and garlic, so I'd say when you are healthy
> you don't need those things.
>
> But if you are feeling ill, have a craving for
> either or both, have an infection, then you may
> feel good about adding them to your diet.
>
> Love,
> Prism

For sure Prism, they arent the bulk of diet for sure. Garlic is so small even though nutritious shouldnt stand for the bulk of any diet. Your more than right they are small additions onions are abit different but even then they shouldnt be the bulk of any diet. Although i dont feel that when we feel infections we should use such vegetables better to retard any problems with our diet so we dont induce these ailments.

Take care



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 08:36PM by powerlifer.

debbietook Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Garlic? No.
>
> [debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com]
> arlic-less-popular-view.html


I skimmed your article. Interesting, but isn't allicin just another phytochemical? Doesn't anything we eat have certain properties which will affect our bodies? For instance, grapefruit contains a chemical which makes medication more potent. I forget what it actually does to bring this on (I used to think it thinned the blood, but it has something to do with interfering with enzymes which break down certain drugs). My point is that all fruits and veggies have the potential to affect the body in some way. Garlic and onions are not produce that most people will consume in large amounts. I know I don't eat that much at one time. I rarely juice with garlic and never onion! And what about cooking these things?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 08:59PM by banana who.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> debbietook Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Garlic? No.
> >
> >
> [debbietookrawforlife.blogspot.com]
>
> > arlic-less-popular-view.html
>
>
> I skimmed your article. Interesting, but isn't
> allicin just another phytochemical? Doesn't
> anything we eat have certain properties which will
> affect our bodies? For instance, grapefruit
> contains a chemical which makes medication more
> potent. I forget what it actually does to bring
> this on (I used to think it thinned the blood, but
> it has something to do with interfering with
> enzymes which break down certain drugs). My point
> is that all fruits and veggies have the potential
> to affect the body in some way. Garlic and onions
> are not produce that most people will consume in
> large amounts. I know I don't eat that much at one
> time. I rarely juice with garlic and never onion!
> And what about cooking these things?

Yeah banana for def thats what i was saying many fruits, vegetables, spices and herbs have the same alkaloids but there deemed "medicinal" but because fruits/veg arent its ok even though they contain the same alkaloids which attribute to the health benefits.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 09:03PM by powerlifer.

The funny thing about Ayurveda is that they say nay to onions and garlic and yet are big on dairy and sugar!

Powerlifer, did you eat garlic before or after you looked to prove it was healthy?

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Powerlifer, did you eat garlic before or after you
> looked to prove it was healthy?


Yeah i did how and what does this have to do with the debate, i ate meat, dairy, cheese, and other rank foods that i wouldnt today. But if there was 50+ decent studies saying they were healthy and fruits werent id be consuming them.

Amen.

I don't consider talking to people debate. I know you think I'm hissing/fitting, but I'm all right, here eating my greens. Straightening my hair for my date, too.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't consider talking to people debate. I know
> you think I'm hissing/fitting, but I'm all right,
> here eating my greens. Straightening my hair
> for my date, too.

When you start whining "whats your problem" id say that qualifies as a debate, its ok ive backed myself up throughout this, you well have done nothing of the sort to justify your position which disappointments me abit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 09:18PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don't consider talking to people debate. I
> know
> > you think I'm hissing/fitting, but I'm all
> right,
> > here eating my greens. Straightening my
> hair
> > for my date, too.
>
> When you start whining "whats your problem" id say
> that qualifies as a debate, its ok ive backed
> myself up throughout this, you well have done
> nothing of the sort to justify your position which
> disappointments me abit.


Yes, that's what you normally revert back to, that I must justify my
"position" that people have different opinions. LOL Look around you. Listen a bit.

Do you only say to women that they are "whining" or is that an equal gender classification of emotion that you put into my posts?

Is there any actual evidence that garlic or onions are bad for us to eat? Any peer-reviewed research?

There is peer-reviewed research into the cancer-preventive properties of garlic and onions.

According to a Vegetarian Nutrition webpage for the American Dietetic Association: "The National Cancer Institute has spent in excess of $20 million over the past 5 years researching the anticancer potential of plant foods (11). "The foods and herbs with the highest anticancer activity include garlic, soybeans, cabbage, ginger, licorice, and the umbelliferous vegetables (including carrots, celery, cilantro, parsley, and parsnips. Foods with a modest level of cancer-protective activity include onions, flax, citrus, turmeric, cruciferous vegetables..."

[www.vegetariannutrition.net]

I stopped eating garlic and onions for several months when I heard they were bad, but I didn't notice any difference. I've been raw for decades, and I'm extremely food-sensitive.

I started adding them again to see if I would notice any difference. No difference at all. Meanwhile, I received the highest grade (the only A) in my trigonometry class. Pretty good considering my poor old raw vegan brain is at least 35-40 years older than those quick younger brains.

If people don't like garlic or onions, I would not suggest they eat them. But, on the other hand, I don't see any reason to suggest that people stop eating them based on suspicion or "intuition" or something we may have read or heard, that hasn't been substantiated and isn't referenced to any actual evidence (like, for instance, that pilots don't have the brainpower to fly after they've eaten garlic).



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/25/2010 11:17PM by suncloud.

I'm enjoying the "good old fashioned flame war" guys - by gum, it's been awhile, lol

And for once I'm not a target!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/2010 12:03AM by juicerkatz.

Since I have been on vegan diet, garlic simply fell out of the picture. No need for it, and no craving at all. Debbie's article is great, enough facts for me.

powerlifer,

these studies you speak of have little use to utopian life, apparently. Those studies, also, have little use to me. I know what I prefer and what works for me.

david

Paul Pitchford, in his tome (and a good one it is) on natural healing & asian traditions, states vociferously how "bad" garlic is for you according to trad. asian beliefs, at least as far as "spiritual" development goes. Supposedly makes you "angry", aggressive, etc. How silly that is!

However, elsewhere in that book he describes the countless benefits of consuming garlic. He stresses that if you have a heated condition you really should avoid it in any case.

I would dearly love to get to the bottom of this in a scientific way.

I used to eat quite a bit because I was growing it in my garden; this is just something my parents always did. Tradition. However, last year I had a crop failure + I don't like buying non-organically grown garlic, so I consumed very little garlic over the past year. I can't say as I missed it all that much, but neither did I notice any great improvements in my health (I don't have any major issues) or mind.

Don't like em, they feel bad, don't eat em.

Like em, they feel good, eat em (if they're raw vegan ).

But if any of us tries to convince someone else that our bodies' sensitivities know better than their bodies' sensitivities, we may possibly be out to lunch, so to speak.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't like em, they feel bad, don't eat em.
>
> Like em, they feel good, eat em (if they're raw
> vegan ).
>
> But if any of us tries to convince someone else
> that our bodies' sensitivities know better than
> their bodies' sensitivities, we may possibly be
> out to lunch, so to speak.

Well stated.

I could careless if it is beneficial or not...I eat it cause it tastes damn good.

If a person doesn't like the taste or reaction they have to a certain food, that is an entirely valid and understandable reason to avoid it. However, and I do see this quite a bit in the raw food community, if a person is discarding a food from their diet because of popular (though often completely unproven) belief or suspicion, I personally think the motivation behind that is flawed. When a person of some authority, say a moderator of a forum or a long time raw foodist or frequent poster refers to "studies" with no actual scientific basis, or to passively aggressively state that a certain food is bad for the health of EVERYONE but "if you feel like eating it go ahead, your body can heal from that mistake"... Well, you see my point. Even though that *seems* supportive of personal choice on the surface, it really isn't, is it? That sort of attitude is manipulative at best and undermining of genuine personal discovery at worst.

So... I will choose whether or not to consume certain foods based on how they taste to me and how my body personally reacts to them. And I don't for a minute think that I'm doing myself damage any more with garlic or onion than I am with peppers, cabbage, spinach, sesame seeds, or any of the MANY other foods I've seen debated in this manner on this site over the years. Goitrogens, oxalic acid, etc etc etc. I'm going to give that sort of unhealthy obsessive nitpicking a rest.

Cross posted to the orthorexic thread.

All foods have some amount of toxin in them. Some of those foods the toxin level is very low. In fact, you can fill your belly with that food (say about 2 pounds worth, depending on your stomach size), and you will have no ill effects. An example of a low toxin food is watermelon or bananas.

Other foods have moderate amount of toxin in them. The way you can tell is that before your stomach is full, you will get a sign to stop eating them. So an example of this might be almonds or slightly unripe figs or cachews, where you might be able to eat a pound or less of them, and your mouth might start to hurt a little bit.

And there are foods that are more than moderately toxic, where you can't even eat a pound (or much less) of that food. Garlic is one of them. So is salt. Salt is so toxic that you can't even eat a whole ounce of salt in one sitting without killing yourself. As for garlic, I wonder how many people can eat an ounce of raw garlic without an ill effect?

But given a toxic food, one can build a tolerance to it. I used to easily be able to include a whole clove of garlic in a meal when I first went raw, and things felt OK to me. Nowadays, 1/100 of a clove might be OK, but 1/4 clove would be way to much.

As we are 100% raw for longer periods of time, our sensitivity increases to toxic foods. We don't need a book like 80/10/10 to tell us that a food doesn't feel good, our body tells us. But part of getting that sensitivity is temporarily releasing the habits that build tolerance. This is why taking a 3 month break from garlic will give you a better chance of seeing how garlic feels in your body, assuming that you are healthy enough to detox all the garlic out of your body in 3 months (some people are not this healthy yet).

I dont agree with the whole "toxin" theory of food, especially as there are many factors involved. I cant eat numerous bananas at once like some do, it gives me belly ache but that doesnt mean im poisoning myself with toxins. Same as some just cant tolerate garlic as it irritates there intestine again thats not because its toxic some just cant tolerate it.

Garlic isnt really a food that should be ate in such quantities such as an ounce.

Prana, excellent analysis. This should be saved and re-used for the future, to help people on raw food and others who have questions regarding similar topics.

I tried eating fish several times since I switched to 100% raw and got sick every time. I used to be able to eat fish, but now (9 months raw) I simply can't, as my body changed. Nothing is a better indicator of the change than this.

I know I can eat a medium sized bulb of roasted garlic at once...been there...done that. Can't say how much it weighed though. No ill effects except for the breath issue.