Oh, good powerlifer, and I see at the 1st interview at 6:18 Doug Graham starts talking about how he thinks all humans have candida in the blood stream as a backup system to help control blood sugar in case we over-consume, and that the candida quickly bloom to eat the excess blood sugar which brings blood sugar back down to normal levels, followed by die off of those same candida cells. It's his belief I guess.

I see what you're saying about the importance of stomack acid as a check for bacteria. The stomach also digests food so the intestines can absorb it, leaving as little as possible for the bad bacteria to do excessive fermentation.

I was reading when the food exits it normally has a pH of 6, slightly acidic, and has a very small sugar content.

Thats correct loeve, which is why when you have low stomach acid, you get gas and other symptoms due to fermentation.

I also keep seeing this posted by people that have read Dougs books, that candida is a bacteria, surely he hasnt done an mistake as bad as that?

No, that's my mistake, mixing up yeast and bacteria.

Oh, and I meant "when food leaves the body" it normally has a pH of 6, which would be expected from a stool test and which I'm sure you understood. It ties in with the predominantly acidic environment of the GI tract, IMO. I would be interested in any rebuttals.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, that's my mistake, mixing up yeast and
> bacteria.
>
> Oh, and I meant "when food leaves the body" it
> normally has a pH of 6, which would be expected
> from a stool test and which I'm sure you
> understood. It ties in with the predominantly
> acidic environment of the GI tract, IMO. I would
> be interested in any rebuttals.

Nah man i wasnt meaning your post, on that videos comments it seems he has said it somewhere in the video. On another raw forum i visit quite a few 80/10/10ers refer to candida as bacteria. Which made me wonder does Doug state this in his book?

Ok, I'm into video #2 where at 1:28 he is talking about the pancreas producing insulin and Doug mistates "the body producing sugar" and quickly corrects himself to say "insulin". He's capable of mistakes but I think he knows yeast from bacteria, though with both yeast and bacteria acting as "good bacteria" (my wording) in the GI tract I think there's plenty of room for mix-ups by all parties?

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, I'm into video #2 where at 1:28 he is talking
> about the pancreas producing insulin and Doug
> mistates "the body producing sugar" and quickly
> corrects himself to say "insulin". He's capable
> of mistakes but I think he knows yeast from
> bacteria, though with both yeast and bacteria
> acting as "good bacteria" (my wording) in the GI
> tract I think there's plenty of room for mix-ups
> by all parties?

Yeah i seen that also, its easy to make a mistake like that especially live. But mixing up yeast/fungi with bacteria isnt really acceptable if he has. Would be like saying a virus is a bacteria.

Thats if he has done this of course, hopefully someone who has read can speak up?

The second video gets interesting around 5:56 where Doug is asked what if there are health issues, and Doug responds "well nothing will work with these underlying issues", that if one has pancreas, adrenal or thyroid issues they need to be dealt with.

[renegadehealth.com]

But then at the end he says he's never seen the 80/10/10 diet fail.

Abit of a contradiction for sure. But i mean most of these issues are seperate from candidiasis.

Everything can fail, because no 2 people are the same. Ive seen herbs fail, ive seen diets/lifestyles fail, just as here. I hate when people make out that something is super and that it can never fail. There are many on even Dougs forum where 80/10/10 has failed them. Just as how ive heard a herb has failed someone. Nothing is fullproof, and nothing is a cure all for everyone. Id love if it was, everything would be much simpler, we wouldnt need to pay scientists and researchers millions a year if so. Anyway this is going to fast become about 80/10/10 again which wasnt my intention, it was about Dougs candida knowledge.

I thought i made good points but i managed to miss one of the main ones that you spotted Loeve that the majority dont have candida in the blood, so what is he on about this whole interview?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 06:48PM by powerlifer.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It ties in with the predominantly
> acidic environment of the GI tract, IMO.
>

That is twice this statement has been made.

I must be asking the wrong questions. Or perhaps my sources are wrong. In any case... can you answer these questions (include links/sources)?

What is the pH range of the GI tract per stage (stomach/duodenum/small intestine/large intestine/colon)?

What organs and chemicals does the body use to change the pH of stomach contents to the pH of the intestines during digestion?

What pH range does intestinal candida survive in?

What pH level kills candida?

Specifically how does intestinal flora keep candida in check?

Yes, I suppose they are separate issues from candida.

He spends the whole interview talking about candida in the bloodstream basically.

Did you read the [www.rawfoodexplained.com]. article on digestion about how the GI tract is essentially outside the body? So it's like the skin, vagina, urethra, nasal passages and ear canals, all places where we can get candida yeast infections. I don't know who wrote it because I'm not seeing the authors section on the new rawfoodexplained web page. Thanks go to Philip who assembled the site originally.

Rocketship,
That sounds like a wish list for the book you're writing.

The pH of the stomach is so accessible the pH is well known (1.5-3 rawfoodexplained), same with pH of stool samples and probably the colon (which I haven't checked). In between is a bit of a mystery to me, relatively inaccessible to instruments and dependant on what you ate for breakfast etc. I hope someone can answer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 07:44PM by loeve.

...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2010 07:50PM by RocketShip.

loeve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Rocketship,
> That sounds like a wish list for the book you're
> writing.
>
>

LOL. No, just a wishlist of facts amidst a barrage of inaccuracies.

I don't know if this will help, but:

"Hydrochloric acid produces a pH of about 2.0 in the stomach. Pepsinogen is converted by hydrochloric acid to the enzyme pepsin. ...Pepsin exhibits optimum enzymic activity at a pH of about 2.0. The low pH also kills microorganisms.

"...Intestinal secretions lubricate and protect the intestinal wall from the acidic chyme and the action of digestive enzymes."- Essentials of Anatomy and Physiology, Seeley, Stephens, Tate

And from "Microbiology", Cliffs Quick Review:

"Candidiasis (yeast disease). The fungus Candida albicans is commonly found in the normal flora of numerous body tracts, but in compromised individuals, it may cause a superficial infection known as candiasis or yeast disease. Yeast disease often follows the destruction of lactobacilli in the vaginal tract."

Below is some additional info from Marcelle Pick, cofounder of Women to Women Clinic in Yarmouth, Maine:

[www.womentowomen.com]

(Note: Although Marcelle Pick concurs with Graham that candida eats sugar, she appears not to agree with Graham's point that candida is naturally found in a healthy bloodstream [See last paragraph below]. In 80/10/10, Graham claims that "Candida is a form of yeast, an organism that naturally occurs in human blood. It is supposed to be there." [p.38] In the two pages of Graham's info on Candida, I don't find any references.)

According to Marcelle Pick's article:

"Candida albicans is a fungal organism that is present in virtually everyone’s intestinal tract in small amounts. In a healthy gut, it is kept under control by normal immune system activity and beneficial microbes such as intestinal lactobacilli, bifidobacteria, and others, including competitive yeasts. An intestinal environment that supports optimal balance between these myriad populations can easily be upset by such factors as:

A diet high in refined carbohydrates and unhealthy fats
Inadequate dietary fiber
Impaired immune function (typically due to stress or illness)
Use of medication such as antibiotics, steroids, birth control or other hormonal therapy
Environmental or food sensitivities

Like any opportunist, Candida albicans will take advantage when conditions permit. Once that balance is upset, this organism is more likely to change form and proliferate, invading and colonizing our body tissues. Although it may first come to our attention in the form of a vaginal yeast infection or as oral thrush, Candida albicans can spread and become a serious problem — causing diverse symptoms not just in the reproductive or digestive systems but in multiple other systems in the body (see box).

When Candida proliferates, it changes form, morphing from a simple, relatively harmless one into one that is capable of penetrating the intestinal lining. This elicits low-grade inflammation in the gut and causes breakdown of the boundary between the intestinal tract and the circulatory system. Known as leaky gut, increased intestinal permeability allows incompletely digested food particles and yeast cells to pass through and enter the blood stream. The immune system soon identifies these large particles as foreign, and ramps itself up to deal with them."



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 12:02AM by suncloud.

Clears suncloud for posting those references, that pretty muchs sums up what i was saying aswell as answering most of rocketships questions.

Your last question, the good bacteria secrete various acids which keep candida in check.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 09:54AM by powerlifer.

Powerlifer, you do know that Doug is at vegsource.com all the time, don't you? Why don't you bring up your points directly to him? He's also at rawnatural hygiene.ning.com. If you're so concerned about correcting wrong information take it up with him.

Will you?

Raw Seeker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Powerlifer, you do know that Doug is at
> vegsource.com all the time, don't you? Why don't
> you bring up your points directly to him? He's
> also at rawnatural hygiene.ning.com. If you're so
> concerned about correcting wrong information take
> it up with him.
>
> Will you?

I was only aware of this around 4 days ago so no i didnt know he was there all the time. I also dont feel the need to invade the guys forum to make him look silly as some sort of troll. If anyone wants to forward the post to Doug then more power to them and id love to see what his opinions are that candida is in the blood stream for most, or his back up system thoughts, no mention of stomach acid or good bacteria. Ive said all i need too, others have backed up the information ive stated, id love to hear Dougs viewpoint on it, but like i say im not going to act like some troll on his forum to do so.

If he has a private email fair does. Some of his fans seem to be really taking it badly and missing the whole point. If i had wrote a book, video etc and was spouting bad information you guys wouldnt think for a second to correct it. Some of you guys need to look past the personality here and to the information.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 10:31AM by powerlifer.

This candida in the bloodstream thing might just fall away on its own. I'm so
looking forward to the next "80/10/10". Good luck with it powerlifer.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> "...Intestinal secretions lubricate and protect
> the intestinal wall from the acidic chyme and the
> action of digestive enzymes."- Essentials of
> Anatomy and Physiology, Seeley, Stephens, Tate
>

Yes, that sounds about right, beginning in the duodenum where pancreatic lipase enters through the bile duct, lipase being quite basic to offset the acidic chyme so lipids may be digested.

As the population of intestinal flora increases on route through the small then large intestines it makes sense that the byproducts will increase acidity, as powerlifer said, though a reference for colin acidity is in the 5.5-6.7 range, so mild acidity might be expected, the stool normally at pH about 6.

Here's a link that says the pH of the large intestine is about 5.6 - 6.9, the slightly acid environment helping to keep bacteria in check.

"If the pH of the Large Intestine has become too alkaline, this may be associated with an imbalance and/or proliferation of intestinal floras. These pathogens influence the process of putrefaction and may be expressed by a variety of symptoms."

[jamesallred.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 01:24PM by loeve.

Good link loeve, i especially like this bit -

If the pH of the Large Intestine has become too alkaline, this may be associated with an imbalance and/or proliferation of intestinal floras. These pathogens influence the process of putrefaction and may be expressed by a variety of symptoms.

Exactly what i was saying from the start, and id severely doubt how reducing fats would correct this issue.

Well, Doug Graham says towards the end of the 2nd video that high fruit with high fat does not work. He may have multiple reasons.

I've read, digestively there's the process of "gastric emptying" [www.vivo.colostate.edu] where the small intestine monitors the nutrient content in the chime and neurally/hormonally regulates stomach emptying because it can only deal with so many nutrients (especially fat) at a time. Unlike a simple sugar like glucose, longer chain fats need to be broken down and chapperoned into the lymph system, which takes time. Food held up in the stomach, waiting on the small intestine, all adds to transit time which can affect bacterial flora, for better or worse I suppose it depends on a lot of things.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 03:55PM by loeve.

Powerlifer,I don't think you're going to look like a troll if you ask your question in a decent manner. People ask him all sorts of questions all the time. If you would really like to hear his viewpoint, like you say, you would ask him yourself. Don't spout hot air here when a couple of clicks of your mouse can get you a virtual face to face discussion with Doug. I must say you're very compassionate when you say you don't want to make him look silly. Ha Ha!

Anyway, I've had my fill of this thread. I'm out.

Lol i wasn't meaning the silly bit in a big headed way, just that obviously those on his forum are there because they follow him, going and doing my first post interrogating the guy would be disrespectful in my opinion whether hes wrong or not

Its not hot air here either, many here watch these videos and this forum is for discussion so its perfectly fit. I dont really need Dougs viewpoint as the video said enough for me.

Alright... we're on our way finally, thanks to Loeve and Suncloud! (Notice that none of the suportive links have been provided by Powerlifer who continues to sit on her thumbs.)

I will add:

"Intestinal juice neutralizes hydrochloric acid coming from the stomach; releases gastrointestinal hormones into the bloodstream; and contains digestive enzymes that facilitate the digestion and absorption of food."
[www.britannica.com]

So...

Question status:

What is the pH range of the GI tract per stage (stomach/duodenum/small intestine/large intestine/colon)?

stomach: 1.5-3.5 very acidic
duodenum: varies due to neutralizing the acidic chyme with intestinal juices
remaining small intestine: unanswered
large intestine/colon: 5.6-6.9 slightly acidic to almost neutral

What organs and chemicals does the body use to change the pH of stomach contents to the pH of the intestines during digestion? unanswered

What pH range does intestinal candida survive in? unanswered

What pH level kills candida? unanswered

Specifically how does intestinal flora keep candida in check? unanswered

If you read my post i answered your last question, the intestinal flora secrete various acids which keep candida in check. Lactic acid being one of them.

What pH range does intestinal candida survive in - Being that candida is polymoprhic, it will be able to survive in a range of different PHs, normal yeast form will survive in an acidic PH, whilst when the PH changes to a more alkaline level then thats when the fungal overgrowth form occurs and obviously flourishes in an alkaline terrain.

Im not away to sit and dig links out when you can do it yourself, you have access to google just like i do. Your lucky loeve and suncloud have provided the links for you. One of your questions i dont know the answer to either, as i stated at the start im no "guru" i just know the basics.

P.S im a guy also.



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/2010 07:33PM by powerlifer.

I never seen this question from you -

What pH level kills candida? - Killing candida is pointless, its a natural part of the body which is kept under control by stomach acid/good bacteria etc etc. You will get the PH for that in your own post with the various different PH's. Which is why people who constantly use anti-fungals to battle candidiasis never get well.

That just leaves one question about the organs and chemicals that im afraid i dont have the answer for.

Sorry Powerlifer. No supportive links = unanswered.

"ps, I'm a guy also"

I knew that, actually I thought you and RocketShip were connected at the hip.


RocketShip,
Nice link, I'd forgotten about intestinal secretion glands till you and suncloud provided the info.

Well here's something on the "accessory" digestive organs (liver, gall bladder, pancreas) and how they supply there digestive juices into the duodenum. I didn't realize the common bile duct joins the pancreatic duct so near the duodenum (at the ampulla of Vater) and that each duct has a sphincter, plus there's a third sphincter right at the junction with the duodenum.

"Various smooth muscle sphincters regulate the flow of bile and pancreatic juice through the ampulla: the sphincter of the pancreatic duct, the sphincter of the bile duct, and the hepatopancreatic sphincter (Sphincter of Oddi).

"The Sphincter of Oddi controls the introduction of bile and pancreatic secretions into the duodenum, as well as preventing the entry of duodenal contents into the Ampulla (of Vater)."

[en.wikipedia.org]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/16/2010 02:12AM by loeve.

wow, lot of debate, sounds like this yeast thing is multifaceted, multidimensional, and multi alot of other things. It would seem that each scenario could be very dependent upon certain physiologic issues relevant to the individual.

Here's a completely ignorant statement: to me it seems that neither a medical textbook or wikipedia can accurately represent the conditions of each individual and maybe much more research needs to be done.

I've never had yeast problems and practicing the low fat lifestyle certainly hasn't changed that. Maybe I'm lucky or have a mind blowing genetic disposition.

I love carbohydrates. I hope they reciprocate.

david

Yes, individual variability is mentioned which is why when they study lots of people they use bell curves and other statistical tools.

You've got to start somewhere. I was noticing this wikipedia [en.wikipedia.org] site references and suggests for further reading 20+ pubmed articles, the author presumably familiar with all of them. Then with pubmed there's further helps to screen for credibility there.

For the GI tract wikipedia has a chart with live links to different parts which is handy as heck --

[en.wikipedia.org]