I've been reading about omega 3 EFAs recently and have found that plant sources are inferior to animal sources. The reason is because plants contain ALA, the parent molecule, whereas animals contain the broken down EPA and DHA that our body needs. ALA is only converted to the lower molecules at 5% for men, 12.5% for women.

Some sources speculate that the recommendation of 1g EFAs is too low and 2-4g/day is a better goal. With that in mind, plant EFAs including flax seeds seem extremely EFA poor especially for males.

Now that I know this, I may have to start supplementing fish oil to get a safe intake of EFAs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2010 11:25PM by Delta223.

Hemp seeds and chia are both superior to flax (which isn't even a very good source as far as I know). Fishing really sucks for the planet, that would be a very last resort for me.

Why don't you get your DHA and EPA straight from the same source that the fish do, algae? You might not realise, but the fish do not make their own.

That way you can skip the intermediary, avoid all the biomagnification of harmful pollutants such as heavy metals, dioxins, pcbs, etc (seriously, there's a reason why vulnerable people like pregnant women are told to avoid fish) and also avoid killing the fish (our appetite for fish is literally killing large section of the oceans, if you want more info on this I can provide it for you).

Myself, I'm not worried about it at all, I do eat DHA containing algae but would not worry if I didn't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 12:12AM by klomasius.

I don't think there's any proof that's the case. I've written about this issue here: [www.raw-food-health.net]

Delta,

List sources of for your info, please. I have never heard this in all my travels. Except at scary Mercola's but he's got a supplement selling biz.

Sounds like Delta has been watching too much of Mercola's infomercial youtube vids!!

I guess where does a cow, rhino, giraffe etc get the EPA/DHA from? Does a giraffe go catch a tuna? Could humans catch a tuna in nature? NO FRICKEN WAY!!

We have fishing industry telling us we need to eat sea creatures to get enough EFA and then we have the fishing by product industry that we need to consume fish oil on top of that cos the fish actually doesnt have enough EFA in it..

They forget to tell you that fish only have 0.3g of omega 3 per 100g and flax/chia/hemp/kiwi etc have around 23g per 100g.

They forget to tell you that your body makes DHA/EPA and its not even a registered essential nutrient on the NHI registrar.

They forget to tell you that stinky fish/oil is full of brain damaging heavy metals such as mercury/strontium.

They forget to tell you that they dont care about your health, they just care about their profits.

There is 2 types of educators in the health movement today.
1. They look and perform like healthy, vital people. They dont sell you consumables, with a new problem and a new product coming out each month. They teach you HOW to eat and live healthy.

2. They look like crap and talk about muscle/energy growth but are pretty weak/small/fat for what they teach as muscle growth/high energy diets. They are self proclaimed 'longevity experts' and are under age 40. They are self proclaimed 'health experts' and promote the consumption of dead animal and their by products. Some even prescribe recreational drugs. They prescribe calorie restriction crap that drops you off the deep end and that creates more need for their quick fix products that really only fix one thing good : their profits.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 01:59AM by durianrider.

The general sentiment in this thread is a bit unnerving.

No more politics guys. I only want to do what's best for my body & I hope your goals are the same.

RusticBohemian, The information about EPA and DHA originating from algae is interesting.

You also quote a source that says humans have no problem converting ALA to DHA. Your source probably did find support for that, but my own researching on google overwhelmingly points to the opposite (check for yourself: " ala conversion " ) This is the key point and from what I've read, I'm not convinced that ALA converts to the smaller molecules in healthy amounts.

Edit: Here are a couple sources

-------------

Alpha-linolenic acid, (ALA) does not convert to docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) at levels that confer any physiological benefit, according to a summary of omega-3 research conducted by the International Society for the Study of Fatty Acids and Lipids (ISSFAL)

[www.nutraingredients-usa.com]

--------------

Official recommended minimal intakes were established for ALA for all members of the population (young and old alike). However, extensive controlled studies in human subjects have now all consistently confirmed the very limited metabolic conversion of dietary ALA into DHA, the final end product of the sequential pathway.

[www.dhaomega3.org]

---------------



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 02:38AM by Delta223.

I will have to disagree with you on at least one count Durianrider, high quality fish oil has NO heavy metals in it, as any impurities are removed during the processing, Do I believe its the healthiest choice for most people? No!
Do I believe your information is correct? partially.
Its obvious your numbers are off, as flax has far less usable omega 3's than that, as does kiwi, thats fairly close if I remember right to hemp/chia, but flax isnt anywhere near as good of a source of omega 3's as hemp or chia. (also, there are a number of low tech civilizations that would catch tuna with nets and spears, so yeah, an individual can catch them fine... unless you mean with your bare hands? which wouldnt make much sense, as there has never been a time in which Homosapiens have not used tools, to say its not natural for us to use tools for survival, would be like saying its unnatural for an ape to use a stick to collect termites...)

last but not least, honestly, I think youd reach allot more people if you dialed it down a notch or two... I LIKE what your trying to do, but your a tad bit to intense/opinionated, I find it kinda repellent... I'm sure I wouldn't if I already agreed with most of your beliefs, but isn't the point to try to convert those that don't believe in your doctrine?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Hi Delta,

Our forum is a vegan forum. Your posts are non-vegan in nature, and as such I need to delete them. However, if you would like to provide me with a vegan friendly version of your posts, I will replace your pro-animal products with a vegan friendly version.

A vegan friendly version is one that does not advocate the use of animal products.

Study: Vegans Have More DHA And Omega-3 Than Fish-Eaters

Good link Prana! their references checkout too.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

I used to be a competition fisherman so am speaking from personal experience. Trying to catch fish is an extremely dangerous thing for humans to do. First we have to build boats (unatural), risk drowning, shark attack, hooks in the face/hand, nets catching box jellyfish with fatal tentacles etc. Its all fine and dandy in the adverts adverstising mercury rich fish/oils that they ensure you its safe but its in their best interest NOT to test or use accurate testing procedures. I mean its like Bush employing Alex Jones to reopen the 911 investigation..NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

We have raped the oceans beyond repair and people are fatter, more heavy metal poisoned than ever before and people are telling me to tone it down a notch.

Im not sure if the planet has enough time left for me to tone it down, most people that personify direct action, tell me to tone it up!

That's a good label for you.

Delta223 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've been reading about omega 3 EFAs recently and
> have found that plant sources are inferior to
> animal sources.

It's not true. In addition, many vegan sources of DHA and EPA are available if you feel you need them. Many do not. The only way to know is to blood test.

As usual, Jack Norris has a good primer. [www.veganhealth.org]

Jack has also been kind enough to put together some links and cost comparisons of vegan Omega 3 supplements (EPA and DHA). [www.veganhealth.org]

Best of luck

Kref

Im not saying to tone down your energy, im saying the rhetoric and aggressive behavior could use a tone down, I know that I for one would find it far more easy to listen to what you have to say in that case, but by all means, if its what you feel you need to get your points across, then do what you feel is right, Im just saying that I personally would be reached more easily by a more positive approach than I normally see from you.

Also, building a boat is not unnatural, using tools to build anything you need is not unnatural at all, its what makes us human, even apes have been known to use wood to keep them afloat and cross water, and early boats are one of the simplest forms of early tools, at least simple dugout canoes and whatnot are... I have never been a competition fishermen, but I have gone fishing with the local tribes back where I used to live, and both river and ocean fishing was fairly easy, Hard work physically of course, but they used very simple methods, gill nets, and spears with ropes attached to your waist, although that was mostly just for fun for them, the nets where the main way they fished... although it was from a semi-modern boat, although the biggest boat in the group was 14 ft, most where around 10.

Anyway, None of this really matters, Ive apprised you of my opinion, You actually reacted allot better to it than I expected, which I think is pretty awesome, but now that Ive made it known, I will not bring it up again, unless you'd like to discuss it, in public or private. hope your having a great...I think its what, afternoon for you down there? I don't remember the time difference...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Life in general is dangerous. Foraging is dangerous also, with predators in the forest, high trees to climb etc. Humans kill way too much fish, that is for sure. But, I have seen a documentary a few days ago where little monkeys dive in the fresh water, searching for fruit that fell from the trees...it is not hard to imagine that they have OCCASSIONALLY eaten some fish or shells. Same goes for humans - it is obvious that animal protein came into picture with migrations and food scarcity, NOT AS A NATURAL CHOICE for humans. But, even in the pristine environment and ideal conditions, humans probably consumed minimal amounts of insects an (maybe) shells or similar. This is something that nobody can prove, but it would be safe to assume something like that. This is not in any way advocating this type of diet.

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Study: Vegans Have More DHA And Omega-3 Than
> Fish-Eaters

Good link very promising, although id like to see the full study to see how it was designed many studies are poorly constructed.

Does anyone know where to find the full copy?

Thanks for the links, Delta. I am becoming increasingly aware that such research does not apply to raw foodists, though. Reading the extract of the second study, I came across the term "healthy individuals" to describe participants in the ALA conversion research and automatically thought, "What does 'healthy' mean to these researchers? What else were the participants eating?" And then there was this:
. . . the apparent inefficiency of the conversion from ALA to DHA is markedly variable between individuals within different sectors of the populations such that the lack of sufficient dietary DHA could compromise optimal health in those with very minimal conversion capacities.

This suggests DHA conversion capacity differs from person to person, and should not be assumed to be a problem for everyone.

It's important to throw the net wide[using a fishing metaphor here] for information, for sure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 01:29PM by Tamukha.

A few months back someone posted a link for a company selling epa/dha from a vegan source. Just putting that out there. It seems like a good idea, even for people who are not vegan.

I met someone in Canada that was a vegetarian for some 30-40 years, with some periodic raw veganism, and fruitarianism. He added some fish oil about 2 years ago, I don't think he knew about vegan sources of epa/dha. I don't know why he added fish oil, otherwise he avoided fish, and flesh completely. (although he is a dairy vegetarian)I lost contact, otherwise I would shoot him an email or letter to tell him about another option.

powerlifer, it looks like you have to buy it for $25 US.

Pub Med Click on the Full Text link on the upper right.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2010 01:30AM by Prana.

ok then. Take hemp or chia seeds.

Hemp and Chia seeds have SDA (stearidonic acid) and these convert to EPA much more readily than ALA. SDA is only found in echium oil, blackcurrant, hemp, and chia seed oils. uhmm, well not sure sure about the chia seed, but even so. I read somewhere that 15 percent of the ALA converts to EPA, iM not sure exactly which is the figure, but if that's the case, gram per gram Chia seeds provide more EPA than hemp seed oil, which has SDA. And if true that it converts at that percentage rate, which has been scientifically testd, then eating 2 tablespoons a day of chia seeds can provide more than enough EPA.

As for DHA.. that's a different story. Consuming all that much algae to get DHA seems unlikely. One wd have to get it from the oil. There's nothing wrong with algae oil.

sounds good to me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer, it looks like you have to buy it for
> $25 US.
>
> Pub Med Click on the Full Text link on the upper
> right.

Ahh damn just what i imagined would happen, cheers for looking it out.

That study has been further written of, following the above links --

"Dr. Welch and her co-workers estimated the intakes of omega-3 ALA, EPA, and DHA among the participating people – fish-eaters and non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans – and compared those intakes with their actual blood levels of ALA, EPA, and DHA.

"Their results showed that omega-3 intakes were between 57 and 80 percent lower in the non-fish-eaters, compared with fish-eaters.

"However, the differences in blood levels of DHA and EPA between fish eaters and non-fish-eaters were much smaller than those widely divergent intake levels would predict.

"The average EPA level in fish eaters was 64.7 micromoles per liter, compared with 57.1, 55.1, and 50 micromoles per liter for non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans, respectively.

"Meanwhile, the average DHA level in fish eaters was 271 micromoles per liter, compared with 241.3, 223.5, and 286.4 micromoles per liter for non-fish-eating meat-eaters, vegetarians, or vegans, respectively.

"While this study supports past research showing greater conversion of ALA to EPA+DHA in women versus men, and higher conversion rates in non-fish eaters compared to fish eaters, our three caveats remain:
The importance of omega-6 intake.
The unusual blood measure used.
The uncertain clinical significance of the seemingly small but possibly quite significant omega-3 blood-level differences seen between fish eaters and non-fish-eaters."

[newsletter.vitalchoice.com]

..so, vegans had a little less blood level EPA, but a little more DHA level. Interesting. Thanks

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the links, Delta. I am becoming
> increasingly aware that such research does not
> apply to raw foodists, though. Reading the
> extract of the second study, I came across the
> term "healthy individuals" to describe
> participants in the ALA conversion research and
> automatically thought, "What does 'healthy' mean
> to these researchers? What else were the
> participants eating?" And then there was this:
> . . . the apparent inefficiency of the conversion
> from ALA to DHA is markedly variable between
> individuals within different sectors of the
> populations such that the lack of sufficient
> dietary DHA could compromise optimal health in
> those with very minimal conversion capacities.
>
> This suggests DHA conversion capacity differs from
> person to person, and should not be assumed to be
> a problem for everyone.
>
> It's important to throw the net wide for
> information, for sure.

Tamara,

Insightful!! Thanks. I think the other thing that needs to be taken into consideration is Omega 6 intake. If the ratio of Omega 6 to 3 is too high, it makes ala conversion problematic. This is so because Omega 6 competes with Omega 3 for a limited number of sites that produce eicosanoids, hormone like substances that have a wide range of effects within the human body on inflammation, cell growth, the immune system and blood viscosity.

Omega 6 is much more prevalent than Omega 3, esp on a high starch diet, e.g. grains and grain oils, corn oil, safflower oil, etc.

Vegans who eat mostly fruits and vegetables, leafy greens and limited seeds (hemp and flax) will be much more efficient at converting ALA than a typical vegetarian. So, Delta when you read those studies about ALA conversion, keep in mind that if the eater has stacked the deck in favor of Omega 6, it's not a fair comparison. In no way are vegetarian sources of Omega 3s inferior to animal based ones. Quite the contrary, I can't think of an animal source as rich in ALA as flax seed. Walnuts, flax seed, hemp seed, chia seed, leafy greens are all excellent sources of ALA. Wakame has about 186 milligrams of EPA per 100 grams of food. Irish moss has about 46 grams. An inexpensive algae based vegan DHA and you are done. No worry about mercury, pcbs or heavy metals. Good luck to you in whatever you decide.

Paul