Hi everyone,

I haven't been on this board in almost a year. Just before that, I had transitioned to a vegetarian from a standard SAD diet, and then went vegan, and finally raw vegan. I felt great, I looked great, and I was so hopeful and never thought I'd eat any other way. Occasionally it was tough to eat that way, like when I was with my family and they were eating all the food I used to love, and when out with certain friends and I sometimes felt like the special case. I did fine with it, and I had a large circle of raw friends for support, so it wasn't like I was alone - but after being raw for a year, I spoke to someone who said that there was a growing population of people who were raw vegan and were secretly (and some not so secretly) suffering with some health problems as a result of it, no matter how many superfoods, combinations of the proper foods or what they tried to do. Granted, many of them were on the 8/1/1 diet, and the high fruit content might have been the problem, but when I questioned some of my long term raw friends, I started to hear that after a few years of eating raw, they had sports injuries that wouldn't heal, bone problems, couldn't gain weight, and teeth/hair problems just to name a few. The general consensus was that after around the 2-3 year mark, people just weren't enjoying the same radiant health they once were. That scared me, and I asked them what they thought the solution was. One of them, who is a raw food educator, and raw for over a decade, told me that she had just started to incorporate raw eggs into her diet, which helped. She also said that she was craving salmon and was thinking of eating it. Another person went off the diet completely, and started eating 'high quality' meat products which she said helped her a lot. One person told me about the Weston Price diet, which I looked into, and it did make a lot of sense, although I didn't want to eat meat.

After a while, and hearing about raw food experts who were secretly eating pizza, and cooked food, and then telling the public otherwise (though I can't verify it as true) I started to get confused and disillusioned. I didn't know what to think anymore, and I had so much information on this way of eating, and that way of eating, that I just kind of lost my way. I started to eat small amounts of seafood, and found that although I didn't feel necessarily bad, my consience felt horrible . I just didn't want to suffer the same consequences of being uniformed that I saw others were doing. I had also been forwarded dozens of accounts from people who were raw for at leat two years, and started to have very bad health problems, after trying what they described as everything imaginable to stay on the raw diet.

Ultimately, I am confused. I am back to eating dairy, and meat, and cooked food. I don't feel good at all, but I just don't know what to do. I feel deep down that eating raw or at least mostly raw is the way to go, but I don't understand how to stay healthy if it seems like no one else I speak to does. I would really appreciate any feedback you guys have, I've always seen this board as a place where very caring and intelligent people share their experiences, and there's nothing like it anywhere. Have any of you been raw for a long time and aren't suffering health problems? I hope this makes sense, I don't know where to go with this.

-I hear you / see what you are saying.

-My experiences / opinions:

-I have been raw for many years...perhaps 5 or 6....with every growing health (with periods of ups, downs, & plateaus). Everyone certainly has their own spectrum...their own level...their own path. Although there may be similarities.......you can't necessarily point to some one else's path and say, "This is how humans should behave!" LOL.

-Sooner or later...what do you do? What does ANYONE do? You do all the research....you pick the highest lifestyles that you can determine....and you pursue them. With joy and with passion. The joy and the passion CREATE success. Success does not create joy and passion.

So: The eating is just a symbol...just an expression of a life of joy. This is why you cannot judge people outwardly. Many people who appear (or say) that they are eating healthy and doing healthy things are really punishing themselves. Many people who appear to be doing the wrong things are really living lives of great joy...and great quality. That is the hidden aspect that you do not see.

-They say...and I agree...that you cannot eat your way into heaven.

-They (they get around don't they! Ha! ha!) that you can't back your way into heaven! You can't become very good....simply by avoiding being bad! LOL.

-Nobody eats 100% crap. Simply adjust your eating to a level of raw food that you ARE comfortable with (if YOU believe raw foods are healthier)...then simply stretch from there.

-What more can you do? Do what you think is the highest good.....accept help from every source....and accept responsibility for your actions.

-What do you think?

-Blessings & Success to you.

-David Mason

Sorry, you're having problems.

Ask yourself what you feel like eating (raw), and that's what your body needs.

This is the same food that everyone else eats, it's just not half-burnt and destroyed by cooking.

There's nothing wrong with making a portion of your diet cooked food, and there's nothing wrong with eating raw dairy foods, especially if you just want to transition to a healthier diet.

Don't listen to dogmatists, listen to your body (the intuition, not the cravings).

good advise everyone!

also (just my opinion/ experience) I have been eating *mostly* raw since summer 2001
and there has been times when eating cooked food has acually helped (not in a dogmatic or idealist way) of course, in the bigger picture. the best advise I've ever gotten is "you know whats best for you" take your path to health at your own pace. peace

Eat some cooked beans and take a b12 tablet once a week. I haven't had any problems but I am really scrupulous about meeting my daily values for all vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, and aminos. There are lots of online calculators for this and it's easy to do now, no excuses!

I would not be comfortable with eggs and dairy unless I was the personally caretaker for the cow or chicken and providing a nice and happy life for her.

I know for a fact that I cannot be 100% raw. I've never even tried it.

My "theory" is that if the Earth is approximately 70% water and the human body is approximately 70% water, then my diet should be 70% water based (raw fruit/vegs).

On ocassion I will have some seafood, rice, a tiny piece of meat (absolutely no chicken or pork though -- I have my reasons for that). Sometimes I even want that lemon sugar cookie that Whole Foods Market does so well.

It all comes down to what works for you. For me, when I maintain a 70-80% water based diet, I operate at my best.

Good luck!

~raine~

Why does it have to be all or nothing?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2006 12:33AM by avanahall.

I know this is a vegan board and all that, but I think this discussion is very valuble so I'll add to it. I'm not vegan and don't beleive that vegan is our 'natural' diet. I believe that insects would form part of our 'natural' diet in the same way they do for bonobos (pygmy chimpansees, our closest relative). Currently I eat some insects and a small amount of dairy produce, with the eventual idea to eat more insects and cut out the dairy.

Rob

--
Rob Hull - Funky Raw
My blog: [www.rawrob.com]

fruitlux,

My personal experience:

My profile - I am curerntly 25, 112 pounds, 5'8". I weighed around 117-125 from highschool until now. One year ago, after starting raw my weight went to as low as 95 pounds.

A vegan raw food diet, including juices, is great for cleansing, high energy and nutrients. But only for so long, unless you are on top of getting variety(as much as I can figure).

I fell into a slump, using the same raw veggies, nuts, and oils, with cooked starchy veggies for dinner. While being athletic at the same time I lost a lot of weight and, unfortunately, a lot of muscle.

I may have been able to sustain it if I had eaten differenty, perhaps including sprouted legumes or more nuts and seeds. I became bloated often and lost the ability to digest fats or protiens well. I even began to feel awful after just a salad with watery veggies and one kind of oil. This caused me to want to eat less, taking in less calories, exacerbating weight loss.

I've since added more cooked, legumes, brown rice, edamame, and such, and since added 15 pounds (much needed). My first non-vegan addition was raw eggs, blended with bananas. That helped a lot.

Since then, I have had salmon or tuna once or twice a month. I have not been able to find anything that stops the muscle wasting I experience after weight training.

Overall, I think that raw is great for shroter periods of time throughout the year, as are fasts and juicing, even juicing breakfast is great for me. But I just cannot sustain my weight if I do it long term.

Again, this is all personal, once I felt the lightness and freedom or raw and eating lightly, I did not want to experience the traditional fare that most eat.

I do have a hindereance now, though. I have had items like cheese and wheat and ever since I get so many cravings. Especially cheese, it's very hard not not eat it when my husband has it in the house.

Just sharing my story, hope it helps.

Best of luck.

Hey, sorry to hear about your problems. If I may, I would just like to point out that vegetarianism (ie the absence of flesh foods in the diet) has been proven to be "healthy" over many generations and hundreds of millions of people. So there is really no need to eat meat or fish.

If you are not comfortable doing the 100% raw diet then don't. I personally think that it is best to take your time to transition and let your body get used to the changes in your diet. I am slowly transitioning to raw, been a vegetarian now for over a year, and with a fair amount of raw food. I haven't noticed any decrease in muscle mass or fitness, in spite of eating less protein than I used to, or have any other health problems.

Another point I would like to bring up is that if you do eat animal foods such as yogurt and eggs, then it is best to buy organic, as the animals have a much better quality of life than factory farmed produce, and it is also a lot better for you and the environment. If you do decide to eat dairy, the skimmed and low fat options are the best.

So, go back to a level you are comfortable at, and work slowly from there, everything will work out just fine

Cheers,
J

fruitlux,

Its great that you recognize that you don't know what to think. However, it sounds like you let your thinking scare you away from a diet that seemed to be working for you. You didn't mention that you had any problems on your raw diet, just that the stories that you heard scared you.

One of the lessons I've learned on my raw journey is to trust my own experience over the recommendations of others. This also means that I will make mistakes along the way, and I try to learn from my mistakes and try something different if I fall.

I've had a different experience from the stories you've heard that have scared you into leaving the raw diet. I've been 100% raw for 4.75 years, and doing the 8-1-1 diet now for over 4 years. I have met many long term raw foodists, people who have 5, 10, and over 20 years on the raw diet. I met a man in his 70's, who started raw when he was in his 50s, and he has the body of a 20 year old (as far as musculature and posture).

If you felt good when you were eating raw, and you don't feel good now, why is there any question as to what to do? There are a lot of people how have had problems on the raw diet, certainly you want to learn from their mistakes, and make sure you don't do what they did. Also, health is more than just diet. A lot of people eating a really great raw vegan diet may be draining their health and energies in other ways.

I wrote an article called Success on the raw foods diet where I shared some of the things that helped me succeed on this diet.

Thanks everyone for really great words - I think ultimately I need to figure out what works for me personally; what works for me might not for someone else, and I see that. I appreciate all the support!

Nearly every true spiritual teacher (saint) recommends a lacto-vegetarian diet, eating dairy, but no eggs or meat of any kind. This is quite healthy and sufficient, as my athletic son and millions of others have proven. No one needs to eat meat, but some dairy might be helpful, as well as beans.

Hey Funky Rob,

Just curious as to why you eat insects? What do they provide?

Kim

rooneyandmuldoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nearly every true spiritual teacher (saint)
> recommends a lacto-vegetarian diet, eating dairy,
> but no eggs or meat of any kind. This is quite
> healthy and sufficient, as my athletic son and
> millions of others have proven. No one needs to
> eat meat, but some dairy might be helpful, as well
> as beans.

I agree. My husband, daughter and I drink raw goats milk and kefir made with our raw goats milk and that is something I will not give up! We get our milk from a local organic farmer. It's the best!

Bryan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> One of the lessons I've learned on my raw journey
> is to trust my own experience over the
> recommendations of others. This also means that I
> will make mistakes along the way, and I try to
> learn from my mistakes and try something different
> if I fall.
>
>


I dig this.

gg

Ignoring bonobos for the moment, forget history...when you look at an insect, feel it's essence, sense it's purpose....do you really, in your gut knowing, feel that insects were designed by life to be food for mankind? This is not a rhetorical question. I'm curious about your sensing, your knowing.

Love,

Piano Gal

I'd rather take a b12 pill than eat an insect. I can't imagine why anyone would prefer to eat insects, or any animal, for that matter.

I thought this was a vegan forum.

Why all these animal-eating people and posts?

arugula - if I may just say something....not everyone on here is vegan, and that's ok. I personally would rather get my B12 from food sources, and not have to take a "supplement". How do you know what is really in that supplement? Not trying to start a debate or anything, but I just don't think it's fair for you to criticize others for not being vegan.

Kim

This IS a vegan board!

I don't think that arugula was necessarily criticizing others for not being vegan. It's just that those who are vegan come to a vegan board to support each other in their being vegan. They don't come to a vegan board to hear all about others opinions on eating bugs, eggs, fish, milk etc.

You are certainly entitled to your own opinions and lifestyle. Nobody is debating that. But this IS a vegan board. There are lots and lots of other boards out there that are cooked foods or vegetarian, lacto-ovo where you might feel more in tune.


Life Is Good!

alive!

I am a bit new to this, so forgive me, but I thought this was a Living and Raw foods board? And are ALL people that do the raw foods diet vegan? I thought there were some that ate raw eggs and had dairy in their diets. Am I wrong?

And seriously, is it truly that offensive to hear about someone that is following a bit of a different diet? Can't we just accept that not everyone is the same and be ok with that?

OK...I just looked and saw that it does say Vegan on this forum, so I do apologize. I didn't know it would be so offensive to others to talk about eating eggs and dairy. My apologies! Maybe I will find a forum that is a Living and Raw Foods forum but is not vegan...is there such a thing?

hi

i feel, after a number of years of raw, that there are many healing crises that need to be overcome before reaching the next stage of health, whatever that is. it took many years to destroy our bodies through flesh and cooking and it is certain to take many years undoing all the harm.

patience is a virtue and is more than necessary in self-healing. drugs work quickly but do not heal. true healing is within and may only be seen externally after a long time of feeling not so great.

ultimately, everyone has to tune in to what their body (not their emotions / reasoning) is calling for. meditation (especially, vipassana) may help in this respect.

i feel the highest diet is live, raw, vegan, organic, local, seasonal, fresh, simple and balanced. this is not something that can come overnight either but the closer we get to this the better.

more importantly, man does not live by bread alone and chosen diet is often a reflection of our inner world. it is important to pay attention to thoughts, feelings, speech, actions, relationships - these all need cleansing, detoxing and healing. health is holistic and affects and is affected by every thought, word and deed.

in the end, we have to live according to our conscience and the higher our state of Consciousness, the purer our diet is likely to be. trust, faith and belief in the innate wisdom our our Selves and our bodies is called for - almost, a religious devotion to the idea of a Loving Universe or God-Goddess.

best wishes with your journey and remember you are your most invaluable teacher if you would learn from your experiences and reflections.

paz

For people that are in transistion it is very helpful to hear from people that are total Living, Raw, Vegan..isn't is just KINDNESS and and more helpful and productive to share YOUR experiences? It seems petty to me this paricular post!

Emmlou

What a wonderful post, paz. Thank you for that. Some of us are on different paths/different points in our "raw food diet" so there are going to be differences in the things we eat. But I don't want to offend anyone on this vegan forum with discussing eggs/dairy, etc, so I will just not discuss those things on here.

Kim

Thank you, Kim. That's all we were asking.


Life Is Good!

alive!

Just a minor note to those raising their arms saying this is a 'vegan' board.

This ia RAW vegan board, this is a place to talk about food, but there seems to be many threads on maple syrip or molasses and other non-raw things. Not to meansion the amount of threats about sticking things up your butt to be healthy.

So, if you're chasing off/defending your raw vegan board, why not go after the people who are NOT talking about food first.... Basically, if you're not 100% raw vegan, it should be safe for people to say so. This is the only way we can support people transitioning, or trying to find a raw vegan life style balance that works for them. If you only want to support vegans that's fine, there are many BBS out there for hardcore holier than thou' vegans. But those place don't welcome non-100%-vegans learning and transitioning (I've been chased from a few when I was lacto-ovo-veggie), I think this place should be a little more open minded... maybe?

As for bugs, I'm sure we all eat 'em. I'd like to think I don't, but I'm sure I've eaten a few bugs hidden in my brocolli, not matter how well I washed it.

Peace,
Ian.

Ian, I had to laugh about your eating bugs comment. I have thought that many times, while eating my salads. In fact, my husband and I grow our own lettuce, kale, spinach, etc and I have come very close to biting into a nice little bug. And I am sure a few have gotten past me without me knowing it!

It is IMPOSSIBLE to live life without killing something throughout your day. No one is perfect.

I don't really enjoy the "holier than thou" attitudes either, but since it is a vegan board, I am willing to comply.

Yogamama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Funky Rob,
>
> Just curious as to why you eat insects? What do
> they provide?
>
> Kim


I think they provide zinc, which men need alot of in there diets. I heard locusts are very healthy, too, I just say NASTY! lol