> do you really, in your gut knowing, feel that
> insects were designed by life to be food for mankind?

I think man was designed by life to eat and live off of almost anything. This allows man the thrive in areas where there are no fruits and veggies, as well doing just as well in areas where there are lots of veggies and fruit, but very little meat.

This let's me choose to be raw vegan without worrying about my diet and RDA amounts.

But, if there are only bugs, we don't have to starve.

Cheers,
Ian.

There is a difference between transitioning to a raw vegan diet and promoting dairy, promoting meat eating, promoting eating eggs, bugs etc. A big difference.

Maybe it might be helpful to read back over the posts and get a little clearer on what was actually being objected to.

This board was originally set up as a raw vegan board. Perhaps reading over the FAQ would help.

I don't think that anyone (myself included) really wants to run people off. I am probably one of the least "holier than thou" vegans you'll ever meet out there on the street. I have a very live and let live attitude. But, when it comes to protecting the integrity of the Raw Vegan Board, every few months I do speak up. My intention is to inform those who may not have already known the parameters. It is not to insult, hurt feelings, seem holier than thou.

Please don't take this personally. It's not meant that way.


Life Is Good!

alive!

Hi Alive!

I didn't really see it as promoting non-vegan life style, but people sharing what they did to cope with problems and help find a balance which allows them to get the most from a high raw vegan diet. From time to time we get ass-holes who are only here to diss the raw vegan life style and make bogus claims about humans requiring meat or they will die, those I can live without.

Anyway, no insults taken or anything negative. I respect and appreciate your choice to speak up when you feel like. I certain do the same (hey, sticking things up your arse has nothing to do with raw vegans). ;-)

Peace,
Ian.

To fruitlux,

I believe it's possible to be a healthy 100% raw vegan.

I've been 100% vegan for 20 years next month, and it's been a lot easier to forever give up meat and dairy than to forever give up cooked food. I believe it takes a considerable amount of experimentation to be a successful 100% raw vegan.

I know several long-term cooked food vegans, some of them longer-term vegan than me. Vegans who eat cooked food don't seem to have nearly as many second thoughts about being vegan as vegans who eat only raw food and have never transitioned through a cooked food vegan phase. I don't know any cooked food vegans with chronic health problems either (not that they don't exist of course...I just don't know any).

If (I say IF) it's easier to stick with a COOKED food vegan diet than to stick with a RAW food vegan diet, then why? Isn't the raw food vegan diet the same as the cooked food vegan diet, only raw?

Well, no it's not. Here's a theory I've been experimenting with this year: Cooked vegans eat lots of GRAINS. Raw vegans eat very little grains, or none at all.

Long-term RAW vegans who begin to feel they have health problems sometimes start eating raw dairy because they can still be raw. If they've never been a cooked food vegan, they are more likely to blame their health problems on a lack of dairy and/or meat. That's perfectly understandable. Eating cooked grains, especially after being 100% raw can be really hard on the system.

My theory is that perhaps if we RAW vegans ate a few more RAW grains (and possibly more sprouted legumes), it would be easier to stay raw AND vegan.

Some people say that the cultivation of grains led to negative consequences for humans and the planet. That may be true, but I believe grains CAN be cultivated sustainably, and the cultivation of grains is certainly more sustainable and more compassionate than the domestication of animals. Take dairy cows for instance. Even though the milk can be "organic", the cows must suffer from their calves being taken away. And yes, if you've ever seen it done, both mother and calf suffer intensely. The lacto-vegetarian society of India is truly more advanced than the general world population, but I believe we humans can go further. Gandhi believed so too (although he regretted not being able to live up to it).

Back to grains. Doesn't it make sense that people probably ate grains before they were ever cultivated, or they wouldn't have bothered cultivating them? And maybe they ate them raw.

A couple of years ago, I completed 2 1/2 years on 100% raw, but toward the end of that time, I felt like everything I ate was just water. I hadn't eaten any kind of raw grains. This time I've been raw again since late March. The only difference is that now I'm eating raw wheat germ and sprouted wheat. I'll be ordering some raw oats too. Just an experiment, but I thought I'd share it.

I don't mind hearing what others have to say who are not 100% raw vegan.
Many people who are 100% raw vegan don't feel they need this forum. The forum seems most useful for people who are transitioning toward 100% raw vegan.

But I agree with alive! - if people are not 100% raw vegan, they should try to have an open mind about a 100% raw vegan diet, since this is a raw vegan forum. We should all have an open mind.

And I can't help being overwhelmed with curiosity. Funky Rob, what kind of insects do you eat? Do you like the way they taste? What's your favorite? Are they still squirming when you eat them?

Best wishes, Ally



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/12/2006 11:35PM by Ally.

Fruit lux
I empathise with your feelings, during my first couple of years of rawdom I often went through periods of intense doubt and fear... I think fear is actually a big part of the journey... embrace it, you will find out a lot about yourself within it...

anyway, I suffered from a lot of the things you talked about - most dramatically the weight loss... I lost A LOT, it was really scary... but I worked with a nutritionist, made a few adjustments to my diet, and it eventually came back and now I am at the ideal weight for my body.. other minor problems I have experienced have also sorted themselves out.. I think when I first started I wasn't very clued up on the diet, just struggled on making all the usual mistakes... but now I've been 3 and a half years raw and I'm doin great (: I have a slight concern about my teeth in that they're not quite as white as they used to be, but again, I'm just trying out a few things to see what can be done. things take time to sort themselves out.
sorry for rambling, just wanted to share my story in the hope that it may reassure you a bit (:

yogamama - there is a raw board that includes veggie and omnivores, it's the Natures first board. I like it, it's pretty fun (: and of course there is our own Narz's RawLovers board which is open to all and sundry (:

Funky - I'm also curious about your insects... HOW do you eat them?! Alive/dead?? You'd be great doing a Bush Tucker Trial (;

Yogamama Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> arugula - if I may just say something....not
> everyone on here is vegan, and that's ok. I
> personally would rather get my B12 from food
> sources, and not have to take a "supplement". How
> do you know what is really in that supplement?
> Not trying to start a debate or anything, but I
> just don't think it's fair for you to criticize
> others for not being vegan.
>
> Kim

You prefer to kill rather than to take a pill with micrograms of a substance that is derived from bacteria. A microgram is 0.0000001 g. That is a tiny amount of supplement. I can assure you that you take in greater amounts of questionable substances by breathing. I can also assure you that the animals that have to die for you to avoid taking a supplement on the order of 0.000001 g are getting their B12 from bacteria, too: bacterial contamination from the soil. So you are getting it indirectly, in a bloody and destructive, not to mention inefficient fashion, rather than directly, from bacterial synthesis in controlled conditions.

What happens to the calf that had to be born in order for the cow to produce her milk? What happens to the cow after her productivity wanes? Does the farmer have a pasture where the non-productive animals live out their lives in peace, with high vet bills and meds and food and water bills and property tax for all that land that is required to support these nonproductive animals for the rest of their lives? What happens to the male chicks that are born? Are they too allowed to live peacefully in good health with adequate food and space or are they doommed to a quick and nasty death?

The vast majority of such animals are killed, of course, when they are not found to be useful.

This is what you prefer to taking a couple of micrograms of supplement per day. It is no different from putting an kitten in a frying pan.

YAWN....

Yawn? C'mon sodoffsocks. Arugula deserves credit for compassion. That's real and it's good. We humans could use a lot more of it.

My husband has been vegan for over 20 years, and the main reason with him is not health. It's compassion. I love him for it. (He doesn't take any B12 though. He does eat a lot of yeast)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2006 06:00AM by Ally.

This is definitely a vegan forum! Non-vegans are welcome to participate in the discussions, but promoting non-vegan foods is grounds for losing your account.

I was not a veg*n when I went raw, nor was I one as I transitioned. That being said, when I posted on this vegan forum, it wasn't hard for me to not push my non-vegan foods.

There are very few places where vegan can discuss their food choices without having to defend their choice to not eat animal products. This rules of this forum have been designed to provide a safe refuge for vegan to talk without needed to defend themselves or their diets.

If any vegan is disturbed by posts that are non-vegan in nature, just click on the "Report This Message" link, and provide the reason why you feel the message was offensive to you. Most of these reports get quick response.

if i were a cow
i wonder what i would be thinking all day
hmmmmm...

i'd rather be a locust
it'd be much harder to catch me

if funky rob caught me
and fried me up in a pan with agave and lemon

well..
i guess i wouldn't be able to go to his Funky Raw Festival

afterall

funky,

u may wanna take that into consideration
u never know what past life your fellow locust may have had

but then again
if i ate a broccoli
who knows?

maybe it was the reincarnation
of christopher columbus?

then i would DEFINETELY have to fry it up in a pan

and give it to my pet Sparko

Hi Bryan, you message is so much convincing to me at this point of my early journey of the raw vegan life!!! Thank you very much!

I talked something about growing garden with my colleague. He said he made composition of raw leftover vegetables. He said these must be raw.
I was shocked. It means our mother earth also needs raw, where life force is there.

The truth is so simple. Raw can bear the life force.
Blessing to all,

Arugula
you obviously feel very passionately about this issue. I am interested in how you feel about eggs. I hear many people saying 'well, they're unfertilised so it doesn't matter'. I'd be glad to hear your take on that.
thanks.

Yes, I understand what you mean.

I have often said to friends that you 'can" eat just about anything in form and get some nourishment out of it. I feel that is because everything in form is part of life and has something of life in it. I could probably take a bite out of my microphone and get some iron and minerals out of it.

But when I look around me at life, at the exquisite order and design that I see everywhere, I can't help being whelmed by a sense of design in back of forms. Yes, I CAN use my tennis shoes as planters if I want....and yet I have this sense that the substance that goes into the shoes knows its greatest design fulfillment as a shoe (I know all analogies fail at some point - but perhaps you get my drift).

So, personally, when I look at a brown wheatfield, I don't "get" that those bristly stems were meant to be food, although they CAN be used that way. When I look at a peach - no doubt in my knowing what it's designed for. And in fact, we know, if we read the secret life of plants, that fruits actually LOVE to be eaten. It is their fulfillment as measured by EKG's, if I recall correctly.

On a personal note, I COULD if I needed to, be a carpenter or hod carrier. But I'm quite clear that is probably not the optimal use of the form called "Piano Girl."

All that being said, it is my inclination to operate as closely in harmony with true design as I possibly can. This is not always possible. But it is my intent in my life.

With much love,

Piano Girl....who has always wondered about the meaning of sodoffsocks....would you explain. I"d love to know!

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> You prefer to kill rather than to take a pill with
> micrograms of a substance that is derived from
> bacteria. A microgram is 0.0000001 g. That is a
> tiny amount of supplement. I can assure you that
> you take in greater amounts of questionable
> substances by breathing. I can also assure you
> that the animals that have to die for you to avoid
> taking a supplement on the order of 0.000001 g are
> getting their B12 from bacteria, too: bacterial
> contamination from the soil. So you are getting it
> indirectly, in a bloody and destructive, not to
> mention inefficient fashion, rather than directly,
> from bacterial synthesis in controlled conditions.
>
>
> What happens to the calf that had to be born in
> order for the cow to produce her milk? What
> happens to the cow after her productivity wanes?
> Does the farmer have a pasture where the
> non-productive animals live out their lives in
> peace, with high vet bills and meds and food and
> water bills and property tax for all that land
> that is required to support these nonproductive
> animals for the rest of their lives? What happens
> to the male chicks that are born? Are they too
> allowed to live peacefully in good health with
> adequate food and space or are they doommed to a
> quick and nasty death?
>
> The vast majority of such animals are killed, of
> course, when they are not found to be useful.
>
> This is what you prefer to taking a couple of
> micrograms of supplement per day. It is no
> different from putting an kitten in a frying pan.

Just an FYI...no animals die for me. I do not eat any animal products, other than a few eggs once in a while, and I don't consider an egg as an animal that was killed for me. It was never fertilized. And like I said, the milk I drink is Raw Goat's Milk from a friends organic farm, and yes, her animals are treated like kings and queens. I am a very compassionate person and perfectly comfortbale with my decision to eat eggs and raw milk. And i am still in the transition period...who's to say that in a little while, I will choose not to eat eggs anymore?? Are people in the transition period not welcome here?

We could go on and on about this subject, but like I said, I didn't realize this was a vegan forum, so I will not discuss the eating of eggs anymore. Although, I would like to know why drinking raw milk is offensive to vegans? Especially if they milk is from such a place like where I get mine from? How is that harmful to the animal? Just curious.

I truly did not intend to ruffle so many feathers. I had no idea this was such a sensitive subject. Peace to all!

Kim

A side note, if you want to things to chance, go and change them youself, don't point fingers at other people, tell them to change things, then expect things to be like you want them. Have you, as a vegan, ever consider opening a farm which is ran in the manner you described? I think it was be very interesting.

The difference between a Vegan and a Vegan fundimentalist is the same as any other fundimentalist, be then christain or muslim or whatever. Instead of looking in themselves for how they can make things better, they try to make everybody else change. How fundimentalists try to do this, has no limit.

Ah, why sodoffsocks? Well, a year or so ago I had to test some instant messaging software for work, so I created two IM accounts to talk to each other, one was called leavemysocksalone (mainly because my socks keep going missing in laundry), the other was called sodoffsocks (sometimes I pretent to be a hippy and don't wear socks). I keep meaning to register the leavemysocksalone screenname and have arguements with myself.

Arugula, I didn't mean to be rude to you, I just hear this preachy vegan stuff all the time. Although it doesn't really apply to me (the odd dash of honey is the only non-vegan food I eat), I cringe when I hear this stuff because I see it tarring all vegans with the same the same vegan fundimentalist brush.

Personally, I can't think of anything more unnatural and further from nature than building factories to make pills, when people can eat simple foods. If people want to eat eggs and drink goat milk, that's fine, but I will encourage them to keep their own chickens (one chicken can lay 250 eggs per year) and goats. This is good for the animal's welfare and the person's health. Also I would encourage them to keep more historic breeds of chicken and goat, since mass commercial production (even in the "cage free", "free range", "organic milk" is causing the demise of some beautiful animals which are no longer as commercial viable as some modern breeds.

Cheers,
Ian.

Ian, you are so right about having your own chickens, goats, etc. And actually, that is the goal for my husband and I and we are working on it. We can't have those animals where we live now, but we plan on moving very son. We do grow most of our own veggies, and lots of tomatoes and herbs, but can't grow fruit because of where we live. I LOVE being able to get my own food right from the backyard. It's teriffic!

And, your posts are always so inspiring.

arugula Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yogamama Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> You prefer to kill rather than to take a pill with
> micrograms of a substance that is derived from
> bacteria. A microgram is 0.0000001 g. That is a
> tiny amount of supplement. I can assure you that
> you take in greater amounts of questionable
> substances by breathing. I can also assure you
> that the animals that have to die for you to avoid
> taking a supplement on the order of 0.000001 g are
> getting their B12 from bacteria, too: bacterial
> contamination from the soil. So you are getting it
> indirectly, in a bloody and destructive, not to
> mention inefficient fashion, rather than directly,
> from bacterial synthesis in controlled conditions.
>
>
> What happens to the calf that had to be born in
> order for the cow to produce her milk? What
> happens to the cow after her productivity wanes?
> Does the farmer have a pasture where the
> non-productive animals live out their lives in
> peace, with high vet bills and meds and food and
> water bills and property tax for all that land
> that is required to support these nonproductive
> animals for the rest of their lives? What happens
> to the male chicks that are born? Are they too
> allowed to live peacefully in good health with
> adequate food and space or are they doommed to a
> quick and nasty death?
>
> The vast majority of such animals are killed, of
> course, when they are not found to be useful.
>
> This is what you prefer to taking a couple of
> micrograms of supplement per day. It is no
> different from putting an kitten in a frying pan.

arugula - do you drive a car? If so, how many insects do you kill each day when you drive? And what about all the insects, rodents, snakes, etc that are killed during the harvesting of all the fruit and vegetables you eat? Trust me, animals die for you. Please stop acting like you are so much better than the rest of us. Maybe you should worry abot yourself and stop trying to change everyone else's views?

I like the idea of a vegan forum. I've gone on non-vegan forums a few times and didn't like it. I'm a vegan first and a raw foodist second.

I'm sure everyone has some food that they don't like and can appreciate the concept of not wanting to be around the discussion of eating it.

For a vegan it's worse than not liking a food, we identify with the animals and so the discussion of animal food sounds (to me) like discussing canabalism.

I think a lot of people just don't think about this when they start posting. They may have just been reading non-vegan forums and then hopped to this board and start discussing the same topics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2006 05:16PM by Lillianswan.

Thank you Brian!

And I'm like Lillianswan. I'm a vegan first and a raw foodist second.

If people on this board are not vegans, that's fine. Please don't be sensitive about it when you hear us vegans be passionate about our compassion for animals. For us that is real, and it doesn't mean we think we're better than you.

When you raw foodists who are not vegans are discussing your diets with meat-and-junk-food eaters, don't those meat-and-junk-food eaters often get the impression that you think you're better than they are? Well, it's not true though, is it? It's the same thing when we vegans talk about our compassion for animals. We don't mean to say we're better, just that we're feel strongly about what we're doing.

Some vegans of course do it just for health, not for compassion. That's different. But those people shouldn't judge the rest of us as being "fundamentalists" either.

We all speak our minds.

La Veronique, VERY FUNNY! LOL

Best wishes, -Ally

Sorry if my last post seemed a bit too blunt. I probably would have edited it, but I didn't have time, since I had to get off the computer.

I do think Brian is right that on a raw food vegan forum, the raw food vegans shouldn't have to defend their choice to be vegan; they should have one forum to go to where they feel comfortable and can discuss their vegan choice with like-minded individuals. They should even be able discuss their compassion for animals. Oh, Bambi, yes.

Compassion is a feeling, not just an intellectual concept. When arugula mentioned kittens in frying pans, I feel certain it was for the purpose of trying to demonstrate not just the MEANING of the compassionate vegan view, but the FEELING of it. The feeling is a real thing, and many vegans purposely attempt to actually CULTIVATE that feeling to the fullest extent. That means ideally not just compassion for the animals, but compassion for all beings, including the people who EAT the animals. That's the difference between a compassionate vegan and a "fundamentalist". Fundamentalists are intolerant. People who have thoroughly learned the lesson of compassion are NOT intolerant.

I think Yogamama asked a legitimate question about what's wrong with eating unfertilized eggs.

Recently I talked to my husband about that, and he had a very simple answer: He didn't want anything to do with the subjugation of any animal for any reason. PERIOD.

That clicked with me, but of course it might not quite click with someone who eats eggs, and it might not even click with vegans who have reasons other than compassion to be vegan. That's OK. But, since you asked, well, there's a reason.

The same reason - subjugation, or animal slavery - can apply to eating goats milk. In addition, there is the question of how the milk is kept flowing. I've never been around goats, so I'm not familiar with the procedure. But I've lived with people who had a dairy cow, and the cow had to have a calf to keep the milk flowing. Soon after the calf was born, it had to be removed from the Mom cow. If it wasn't removed it would drink too much milk, and the calf could become sick and even die. The reason the Mom cow had so much milk that it could make the calf sick was that the amount of milk a milking cow is required to keep pumping out for human consumption is much more than the amount of milk the cow would normally have in its udders (which is why many cows feel pain when they are milked). Both the calf and the cow cried for days after they were separated. They were both grass fed, outdoor grazing animals (receiving the best treatment). The cow supplied milk only for the family (4 adults, 3 children).

Some people like the farmy feeling of being around farm animals and getting food (from them? or out of them?) Some people don't like that feeling at all. It may be hard for one to understand the other. That's OK.

For a much better look at the vegan point of view, as alive! has mentioned in the past, check John Robbins' book, Diet for a New America.

As far as the fact that people kill insects and other animals accidentally all the time just as a consequence of what we in our society have to do to be able to survive, well, causing harm incidentally is something none of us can help. That's not a reason for causing harm intentionally. We vegans do believe that eating meat and meat products causes harm, and that harm could be avoided.

If someone is attempting to cultivate compassion, it's helpful IMO to deliberately avoid harming animals whenever possible. Again, for a more comprehensive study of why eating animals and animal products is harmful, read John Robbins' book, Diet for a New America.

Best wishes, -Ally



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/2006 11:40PM by Ally.

Anyone who thinks milking other animals is natural should try milking a WILD animal and see what happens!

(Just kidding! Don't try it. Really!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2006 02:21AM by Ally.

Yogamama Wrote:
----------------------------------
>
> arugula - do you drive a car? If so, how many
> insects do you kill each day when you drive? And
> what about all the insects, rodents, snakes, etc
> that are killed during the harvesting of all the
> fruit and vegetables you eat? Trust me, animals
> die for you. Please stop acting like you are so
> much better than the rest of us. Maybe you should
> worry abot yourself and stop trying to change
> everyone else's views?

I am not acting like I am "so much better than the
rest of us." I was a vegetarian for a long time before
I went vegan.

I am merely pointing out the flaws in your thinking.

It is very telling that you became so defensive when
confronted with the ugly reality of your choices. There
is much more information on many vegan websites. If the
reality were not so ugly, people would not feel compelled
to embrace veganism.

Yes, I do own a car and I drive it rarely, only
during inclement weather or when I need to purchase
loads that I can't transport on my bicycle. It's
EPA rated at 34/41 city/highway but I usually get
over 50 mpg. Many years ago I spend big $$$$ on a
house that was strategically located so that my
dependence on the car would be minimal and for
several years I was in fact carless by choice. But
my family urged me to get one just in case of
emergencies. So I have one now, that stays parked
most of the time and often I question the need
to pay for insurance and maintenance when I use it
so rarely.

It does kill bugs, to be sure. I also kill bugs when I
ride my bicycle. Also there is killing from the fruits and
vegetables I eat. But I would undoubtedly take more
lives as an egg or milk eater. Or even as a grain eater.

The only way I could be certain that a chicken had a
good life would be to raise her and tend to her
myself. But even under such a condition, I confess that
my desire for eggs has completely vanished and it isn't
very likely that I would ever raise a chicken. The sulphur
smell of eggs makes me sick. I'm also not comfortable using
a chicken in such a way. When I was a child I had a pet
chicken named Henny Penny. I brought her to show and tell
in the third grade. She used to follow me around and let me
pet her and kiss her on her beak. One day she was gone: my
dad had given her to the gardener. I was heartbroken.

I would never feel comfortable with having a cow for milk,
though, even if I took care of her. What would happen to her
baby? And why should she be enslaved just to satisfy my
desires? I write desires, not needs, because there is no
need for milk in the human diet.

There was a study in Nature comparing the genetic distances
from humans to cows, pigs, cats, dogs, and chickens. The
distances from humans to cows, pigs, cats, and dogs are
pretty similar. Why are cats and dogs treasured as family
members while cows are food and food producers? Do they not
have thoughts, feelings, emotions? Their brains light up
when they solve problems. Why should such a beautiful creature
become a food machine when a reasonable alternative exists?

I might add to the discussion: In addition to Diet For A New America you might also want to read The China Study by T. Colin Campbell for even more clarity on the effects of animal protein on human health.


Life Is Good!


alive!

PS. arugula, Ally and Lillianswan, Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful posts! You made my insides warm up and my face smile and my eyes get a little watery!! Have a warm and fuzzy day!

I said that all true saints prescribe a lacto-vegetarian diet. My point was that they forbid the eating of meat and eggs... and that they aren't necessary for our health. After 17 years following my teacher's prescribed lacto-vegetarian diet, i have taken the step to become vegan, and as raw as possible. I am happy about that and feel it is a healthy step. But I don't appreciate being jumped on for even just mentioneing a lacto-vegetarian diet. If you don't want me here because I said that's what saints prescribe, then fine. I'd be happy to leave such militants alone.

Dear Rooneyandmuldoon,

Glad you're taking steps to be vegan, and glad you're on the forum.

Best wishes, -Ally