I'm going to try briefly to restate my objection and concern about the trend I'm observing on the forum toward Tabloid Veganism which I will briefly define as a tendency to focus on personalities rather than experiences, and interpersonal conflict rather than states of health, ethics and ecology. I view this "race to the bottom" as a needless distraction to the overall stated mission of the forum as set forth in the forum policy by Prana (and John Kohler) which I thought was to share our common experiences about what works and does not work for us raw vegans and provide support to us in our shared struggle.

Let me atone first and say that I have participated in tabloid veganism in the past in this forum and I regret that. I feel personally that there is a real opportunity cost for me in engaging it and responding to it. A minute I spend worrying about David Wolfe's poncho is a minute I can't spend learning what has worked well for member x or member y or share why something has or hasn't worked for me. Tabloid veganism can be entertaining and a distraction from the problems I face but it is bubblegum for the mind. It does not stimulate constructive thought or help maintain equanimity for me.

I'm writing first person because these are my observations and reflections about how I have felt when witnessing and participating in tabloid veganism. I made two mistakes yesterday (at least): one was unloading on Banana Who for a problem I felt on other threads (e.g. David Wolfe's poncho) for which I've apologized, and the second was projecting my sense of fear and anger about tabloid veganism into a general expectation on the forum. That was inappropriate and also deserves an apology. So I offer it. There is a certain self-righteousness and arrogance when one member of a forum creates a holier than thou expectation instead of simply sharing feelings and facilitating dialogue and awareness.

Lao Tzu put it this way in # 64 of the Tao Te Ching

"Sixty-Four

Peace is easily maintained;
Trouble is easily overcome before it starts.
The brittle is easily shattered;
The small is easily scattered.

Deal with it before it happens.
Set things in order before there is confusion.

A tree as great as a man's embrace springs from a small shoot;
A terrace nine stories high begins with a pile of earth;
A journey of a thousand miles starts under one's feet.

He who acts defeats his own purpose;
He who grasps loses.
The sage does not act, and so is not defeated.
He does not grasp and therefore does not lose.

People usually fail when they are on the verge of success.
So give as much care to the end as to the beginning;
Then there will be no failure.

Therefore the sage seeks freedom from desire.
He does not collect precious things.
He learns not to hold on to ideas.
He brings men back to what they have lost.
He helps the ten thousand things find their own nature,
But refrains from action. "

I have spoken or communicated with both Bryan and John yesterday and am comfortable with the leadership for this forum. I hope this day finds you well.

Paul

*Cautiously wading into swirling waters*

Paul, I want to understand you better. When you say "tabloid," do you mean 'superficial?' Or are you talking about a well-oiled machine meant to discredit those at the top? Regarding the infamous poncho, I have seen parodies of other raw fooders wearing one to imitate DW, and have joked about it myself. I personally have never started a thread on the man (edit: that I recall). I have no personal axe to grind regarding him and have only joined in on other people's threads. I didn't feel so great about it, to be honest. The older I get, the less I want to participate in finding fault with others, whether they "deserve it" or not. However, I don't have the slightest problem with bringing up feelings of hucksterism, wherever I find it. I think that it is possible to sell products without resorting to shameless promotion or inflating the value of something. One thing I have learned in the last year is that my "gut" response to something is really my intuitive mind either resonating with something or being leery of something. The built-in bee ess detector, if you will. One thing I wanted to ask Prana in the locked thread is what I will ask you now: for those of us who are not 100% vegan or raw, can we discuss veganism without the premise of being raw?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2011 04:42PM by banana who.

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> *Cautiously wading into swirling waters*
>
> Paul, I want to understand you better. When you
> say "tabloid," do you mean 'superficial?' Or are
> you talking about a well-oiled machine meant to
> discredit those at the top?

Both, to me if I'm focused on personalities, it's both superficial and in the particular case of Mr. Wolfe, there are those in litigation for defamation (did I say that?) who have an axe to grind as it were substituting subtance for process (e.g. I want to talk abou this guy because I'm getting sued by him).

Regarding the infamous
> poncho, I have seen parodies of other raw fooders
> wearing one to imitate DW, and have joked about it
> myself. I personally have never started a thread
> on the man (edit: that I recall). I have no
> personal axe to grind regarding him and have only
> joined in on other people's threads. I didn't feel
> so great about it, to be honest. The older I get,
> the less I want to participate in finding fault
> with others, whether they "deserve it" or not.
> However, I don't have the slightest problem with
> bringing up feelings of hucksterism, wherever I
> find it. I think that it is possible to sell
> products without resorting to shameless promotion
> or inflating the value of something. One thing I
> have learned in the last year is that my "gut"
> response to something is really my intuitive mind
> either resonating with something or being leery of
> something. The built-in bee ess detector, if you
> will.

I'm with you.

One thing I wanted to ask Prana in the
> locked thread is what I will ask you now: for
> those of us who are not 100% vegan or raw, can we
> discuss veganism without the premise of being raw?

Bryan will have to answer your question for the forum. But my understanding is that you don't even have to be vegan to participate as long as you are discussing a predominately raw and vegan diet. Vegan is 100 percent, raw may be but doesn't have to be. For example, I'm vegan (by definition 100 percent) but 80 percent raw. I think as long as you are not pushing cooked foods or animal products, it's fine.

Btw, good to talk to you!

Paul

Thanks for clarifying. I try to be respectful of the forum's aim and don't want to ask for cooked recipes, LOL. Matter of fact, I recently purchased a cast-iron skillet and wanted to know if other people thought they were the best types of pans but I didn't want to offend anyone, even though it looks like a fair amount of people are not mostly raw. I think the majority rely on the 100%ers as something to look up to

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for clarifying. I try to be respectful of
> the forum's aim and don't want to ask for cooked
> recipes, LOL. Matter of fact, I recently purchased
> a cast-iron skillet and wanted to know if other
> people thought they were the best types of pans
> but I didn't want to offend anyone, even though it
> looks like a fair amount of people are not mostly
> raw. I think the majority rely on the 100%ers as
> something to look up to


But some might benefit by using some cooked vegan food in an effort to transition to a raw vegan diet, no? For example, I think it's far too much to expect a typical SAD eater to jump right to 100% raw vegan overnight. And so, that type of person might benefit by getting a few tips about cooked vegan eating, as a step towards a high raw or all raw vegan lifestyle. If someone wants to cut out meat, dairy, and junk food from their diet, they are going to need to replace it with something else. I think it would be appropriate to advise them on some cooked vegan options, and encourage them to feel good about eating those things and making that choice to be vegan. Once they get used to being vegan, they very well might decide to go raw at some point. But if we give them the impression that they have to eat all raw fruit and vegetables all the time, they will probably be overwhelmed and go right back to SAD. And I don't think anyone here wants that.

JMHO

no argument. I think a passing reference to cooked food is fine, I eat it as part of my 20 percent as long as you reference it and don't push it. Animal products are different. Raw can mean mostly raw or high raw (e.g. 80 percent) whereas vegan means vegan, 100 percent plant-based diet. imho.

Paul

Oh gawd please don't ask us to check our rollercoaster of emotions and personalities at the door!

Boring!

Passion is what makes this forum exciting to come to on a daily basis.

Boring is a forum where everyone is a cheerleader and nobody ever questions anything or passionately defends a position.

I refuse to be a pod person!

LOL

RocketShip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Oh gawd please don't ask us to check our
> rollercoaster of emotions and personalities at the
> door!

I'm asking for us to stay focused on the business of this forum as John and Bryan have originally conceived of it and set boundries for it. We are supposed to be sharing our experiences and challenges of living and transitioning to a living foods diet. If by "personalities" you mean gratuitious indulgence in folks no longer in the community or conflicts with those folks, then yeah that's what I mean by tabloid.


>
> Boring!

What you call boring, I would call peaceful and supportive

> Passion is what makes this forum exciting to come
> to on a daily basis.


Passion is an emotion that is not confined to gratuitous involvement in somebody else's issues. One can feel passionate about the losing a physical problem or reaching a deeper level of spirituality. You don't need to go tabloid for that.

> Boring is a forum where everyone is a cheerleader
> and nobody ever questions anything or passionately
> defends a position.

Knocking a strawman doesn't help anyone understand the basic idea. We can and should be debating passionately say Brian Clement's view of a living food diet vs. Douglas Graham, but maybe not Brian Clement himself or Doug Graham other than in passing. And in particular not folks who have left for their own reasons. If there is new literature showing why a raw food living diet is problematic, then fine have at it. But David Wolfe's poncho doesn't rise to that level does it?

> I refuse to be a pod person!

Good for you, I have no idea what that means.

> LOL

So, if I read you right, you equate passion with gratuitous indulgence in personalities rather sharing experiences and discussions about the merits of living food in health and personal growth. Do I have it right?

Paul

I think you might enjoy the forum more if you embraced the differences amongst the members rather than wanting everyone to behave in a certain manner (that makes you more comfortable). Relax. Go with the flow. Peace. Love. Joy. Acceptance. There are members here that I can't STAND what they post but there is a part of me that really truly appreciates what they bring to the experience. I wouldn't want them to change EVER.

RocketShip Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you might enjoy the forum more if you
> embraced the differences amongst the members
> rather than wanting everyone to behave in a
> certain manner (that makes you more comfortable).

Thank you for your concern. However, this isn't a request to make people behave in a way that makes me more comfortable (though it will certainly do that). Rather it's an appeal to appreciate similarities and difference of members and their contributions without getting to personality conflicts that take away from the mission of the forum.

> Relax. Go with the flow. Peace. Love. Joy.
> Acceptance. There are members here that I can't
> STAND what they post but there is a part of me
> that really truly appreciates what they bring to
> the experience. I wouldn't want them to change
> EVER.

I think you and I are seeing a different picture. There are subforums here for things that aren't health related I suppose if one wants to discuss Lindsay Lohan's plea or Harley's lawsuits. But what do they have to do with this subforum any more than talking about BMWs would be appropriate in the Juicer/Blender subforum. To each their own.

To each their own indeed. I like it here just fine as it is, if anyone gets out of line the thread or post gets deleted and that's enough. If I find I'm not enjoying myself here I step out for a while or visit less often. Easy remedy for what's ailing me.

coco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To each their own indeed. I like it here just fine
> as it is, if anyone gets out of line the thread or
> post gets deleted and that's enough.

Sometimes that happens. Sometime though what I have seen though is thread drift or thread hijacking without moderation and we lose the opportunity.

> If I find I'm
> not enjoying myself here I step out for a while or
> visit less often. Easy remedy for what's ailing
> me.

Me too, Coco.

Rocketship: LOL@ 'pod person.' I know what you mean and *ahem* have found that some (wish I could emphasize that it's just some) vedges/vegans/raw peeps I have met are friendly but a bit ungrounded/spacy and want lollypops and unicorns 24/7/365. Me? Not so much. I like variety.

As a whole I find the membership of this forum to be very polite, helpful, and accepting. And that reinforces my belief in the goodness of raw foods.

We're not all at the same point in our journey toward health and we're not all even on the same journey. Even after reading your explanation, I don't see a reason to constrict everyone else to your preferred path. It may be that some of us need to have the benefit of experiences that you admit to already having to come to the same conclusions.