I hope everyone got the bickering out of their system in the pepper thread.

I was very interested to learn about the relationship between pepper and turmeric, and how they complement each other nutritionally. I added both to my meal the other night, and it was delicious. Are there any other spices or combinations of spices that are rich in vital nutrients?

I plan to use spices in transition but not necessarily forever.

Im a big fan of herbs and spices and like you've probably read i don't buy into one thing is medicinal but a fruit or vegetable isn't which has health benefits isn't included in that category. There both great.

Anyway the whole synergism between black pepper and turmeric is because of a chemical found in black pepper called piperine. Piperine has been shown to increase the absorption of curcumin which is main compound in turmeric which has shown various anti-cancer, anti-inflammatory benefits. Piperine has also been shown to increase various nutrient absorption such as selenium, vitamin bs etc

WH FOODS is a good site for listing some of the nutrients and benefits that various spices contain. Each spice and to a latter degree are also considered herbs such as sage are all rich in nutrients and have various benefits.

Its hard because raw focuses on simplicity which is a good thing, but this is the reason why i reverted back to a high raw vegan cooked lifestyle. I can eat vegetable curries which basic ingredients include various herbs/spices, black pepper, turmeric, coriander, garlic, ginger etc. Indians have very low rates of cancer and its thought to be from a high consumption of these spices

Not what i meant was that ive done the whole 100% raw vegan thing and found no difference in health with high raw so reverted back to a high raw vegan so i could include things like spices into my meals.

in 80/10/10 doug graham advises against the use of herbs..

what are your thoughts on this?

Im a big fan of herbs and i think pretty much everyone knows my views on them here lol. But they were what got me well after 7+ years of chronic illness, a healthy vegan diet helped but wasn't the full cure.

There is nothing wrong with herbs if used correctly in my opinion and in appropriate doses. I see people saying maca made my heart race etc and im like yeah you were dumping 2 tablespoons at once in your smoothie no wonder when the correct dosage is half to 1 teaspoon.

Most herbs are very healthy just like food, people have been using herbs to heal for thousands upon thousands of years. Many will recommend not to have herbal teas either i see no problem with teas such as rooibos(very high in antioxidants and has many health benefits), nettle leaf, dandelion, rosehips, fruit infusions etc.

Herbs are good. Anyone who would ban then from their diet is missing out.

Im still of the opinion that those who consider foods such as herbs, spices, onions, garlic, herbal teas etc bad/toxic for you is verging or engaging in orthorexic behavior.

If you don't like the above sure don't eat consume them, if you don't like the taste, how some of them make your feel the above doesn't apply at all. But all of the above have been proven time and time again to have beneficial health improving properties just the same as other foods we eat such as fruit and vegetables. It would be as bad as saying fruits and vegetables are toxic and bad for you which is crazy.

But to consider the above unhealthy or bad for you is what i would consider orthorexic behavior. These foods have been used for healing and nourishing as long or near as long as we have been consuming other foods.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 05:15PM by powerlifer.

WanderRA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> in 80/10/10 doug graham advises against the use of
> herbs..
>
> what are your thoughts on this?

The problem with herbs and spices is that they make you eat more than you would have. You eat more because the food taste good not because you are hungry

That isn't true at all, and although i haven't read 80/10/10 im sure Doug recommends eating alot of calories(which i agree with).

The idea that you will need to eat x amount of calories does not make sense, the body has its own mechanism to tell us to eat more when nutrients or calories are low. It is called hunger, you do not need to count calories to feel you are hungry. Spices and herbs alter the ability of the body to transmit to our brain this information.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 05:52PM by madinah.

That is more wish wash spices and herbs don't alter your brain to work in that way.

There are many instances where we would/should need X amount of calories such as an athlete, infact we have pretty decent guidelines what an adult male or female should consume calorie wise.

If it truly was down to waiting on true hunger, id maybe eat 800 calories a day which would not be acceptable let alone as an athlete who demands more calories.

Try telling an athlete he should wait for true hunger and they will end up ill. Calorie restriction shouldn't be encouraged, but neither should excess.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 06:24PM by powerlifer.

instead of hypothesizing, you could perform an experiment as an athlete and get back to us. perhaps your hunger is not what you think it would be. many people have performed fine without any food at all.

from arnold ehret:
"One of my first fasters, a relatively healthy vegetarian, walked 45 miles in the mountains on his 24th fast day. A friend fifteen years younger and myself walked 56 HOURS CONTINUALLY after a ten-day fast."

i know, walking is not "real" athletic feat. whatever.

thing is we think that everything we currently believe is correct.
we forget all the times we have changed our position in the past
and we are therefore closed off to new knowledge.

orthorexically yours,

f

Wow one anecdotal review, and i cured 100 people yesterday with magic spells.

No one is saying you cant go without food, but if anyone thinks long term calorie restriction or fasting is healthy in my opinion it isn't.

Either way this has nothing to do with people thinking onions, garlic, spices are toxic that is very well observed orthorexic behavior.

I think i must be one of those most open minded when it comes to new knowledge if it is presented in an least decent half scientific manner around here. Many here are willing to relate to chimps to relate to there dietary beliefs. Multiple studies show up the day from tomorrow that suggest that such and such is unhealthy i would read into it fairly like i do everything else.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 06:40PM by powerlifer.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WanderRA Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > in 80/10/10 doug graham advises against the use
> of
> > herbs..
> >
> > what are your thoughts on this?
>
> The problem with herbs and spices is that they
> make you eat more than you would have. You eat
> more because the food taste good not because you
> are hungry


Well if that's true that's fine by me. I want and need to eat more, if anything.

Jonathan Barlow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hope everyone got the bickering out of their
> system in the pepper thread.
>


Apparently not.

powerlifer,

you implied that as an athlete you could not thrive on 800 calories or your hunger cues.

i merely showed an example contradicting your view.

calling it anecdotal is irrelevant.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer,
>
> you implied that as an athlete you could not
> thrive on 800 calories or your hunger cues.
>
> i merely showed an example contradicting your
> view.
>
> calling it anecdotal is irrelevant.

Someone that does a walk isnt an athlete im afraid. Walking is a healthy exercise for many but does not constitute as being an athlete im afraid.

But yeah i can show you a 100 people ive cured with magic spells from my harry potter book it means nothing im afraid.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2011 09:23PM by powerlifer.

The second definition of "herb" is: "a plant or plant part valued for its medicinal, savory, or aromatic qualities." This means that an "herb" is used either as a "medicine" (drug), or as a seasoning, perfume, or insect repellent, etc. Herbs are used, not for their nutritional values (their vitamin, mineral, protein, fat, or carbohydrate content), but for their toxic ("medicinal" components. For example, onions and garlic are used for their mustard oil and allicin content. Both of these toxic substances are, indigestible and incapable of causing diseases to disappear or health to be restored. The toxic component of aloe vera is the glycoside aloin; in sassafras it's safrole; and in the Indian snake root, it's the alkaloid reserpine.

The poisonous substances in herbs are causes of body toxicity and diseases. Toxins or poisons are anti-health, no matter what their source. We cannot be drugged into health, whether the drug (toxin) is from herbs or from a pharmaceutical company—or even from cooked foods, processed foods, incompatible food combinations, or excess food, etc. Drugs, "medicines," and herbs are alike in that they all cause disease and are incapable of "curing." You may obtain a temporary feeling of well-being through their use, and disease symptoms may cease for a time. But appearances can be deceiving.

The human body is the only entity capable of healing, and no substance or procedure can speed up or assist healing in any way. There is no such thing as "curing" or "medicines." "Medical" interference in attempts at "curing" is just that—interference. The body heals itself, purifies itself, and repairs damages from injuries caused by toxins best under the condition of a fast, in which complete rest is obtained.

Many many of the beneficial alkaloids and compounds in herbs have shown no toxicity what so ever. So what is your answer there?

Many herbs are used for the nutrition they contain nettle leaf being a good example, alfalfa being another because of its deep root system making it a very mineral rich herb.

You do know many of the phyto-chemicals that give herbs there beneficial effects are also found in fruits and vegetables, so are you going to stop eating them also? You looked at a few alkaloids from herbs with a skewed perspective, some of the herbs which actually do have toxic alkaloids dont in the doses you consume them. Many foods contain toxic compounds if taken in large enough doses, heck even water can be considered toxic in large doses.

Like i say in my opinion people who believe that onion, garlic and most spices and herbs are toxic and cause disease are probably showing orthorexic behavior. How about the millions of people that for centuries have been healing with above.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2011 09:25AM by powerlifer.

Yeah if garlic was toxic I'm pretty sure it would have killed someone by now.

It just has always seemed to me to be selective pickings, silly theories and various healthy foods, herbs and spices to be made out to be villians.

Selective pickings like i say on certain beneficial compounds such as allicin. Every fruit and vegetable has documented medicinal health benefits but are not treated in the same light as onion and garlic and this annoys me to no end how these specific compounds are considered toxins and they toxify the body into healing or "suppressing symptoms". Where as the lycopene in tomatoes which has shown this or that benefit is considered great, or broccoli's kaempferol and various other beneficial compounds and phytonutrients are hailed for there anti-cancer, detoxifying enhancing benefits.

But again onions and garlic are bad, toxic and medicinal/drugs. Pretty much every food alters the bodies human physiology thus can be considered a drug. But if we delve further into wholefoods specifically i cant think of one which hasn't shown some form of medicinal health benefit in studies.

This topic has been done to the death around here and we never make no leeway because when the response comes around that fruits and vegetables often have the same phyto-nutrients and alkaloids that herbs/X-food does for there health benefits why are they not considered toxic/toxins/symptom suppressors.

By eating broccoli im suppressing the symptom of cancer etc etc. Its a silly theory that holds zero weight in my opinion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2011 03:11PM by powerlifer.

it's a matter of philosophy.

if you think the body is not self regulating, then your ideas and studies follow naturally.

if you think the body is self regulating and self healing then the opposite conclusions make sense.

it's a strange concept to me to think that the body is not self healing - i can't figure out the logic supporting it (without relying on flawed studies).

I think the body is self healing but that doesn't mean I think garlic is toxic.

Try and self regulate your way out of certain diseases and health conditions without aids and then you will how how good the body is at self regulating.

Someone has heavy metal toxicity, the body has certain systems and needs certain nutrients and inturn processes to eliminate these metals. But again that includes needing various foods for there nutrients, its various nutrients or what said food contains such as pectin for example. Is pectin now a toxic drug, its "suppressing the symptoms". Its just a whole whacky theory in my opinion.

Explain why allicin is toxic/medicinal and a drug but lycopene and the 1000 other phyto-chemicals/compounds are considered brilliant?

Cora hit the nail on the head.

Very good point, power... What I should have said is, I believe the body is self regulating in perfect conditions...

So perhaps had I been born to a pure mother who'd been living off all raw organic foods in the middle of a rainforest with the purest air and water on earth, and then been raised in such a lifestyle, I would have been self-regulating in my early twenties instead of nearly losing my life to autoimmune disease and toxicity.

But the fact is, I certainly have not been self regulating for most of my life because I didn't have any of those things. If one has a self regulating body in which every organ of elimination deals with everything perfectly, I admire that, but I do think it is close to impossible in the world we live in.

But anyway, this thread is about positive nutrients in herbs and spices, not only garlic and onion. What about cayenne? That is an amazing healing spice that I haven't seen mentioned here yet. I loooooove cayenne.

Dont worry cayenne and chili's are as hated as the some as much as onions/garlic cora lol.

Some of that comes down to poor understanding of stimulants, again another topic that has been done to the death but with no lee way. Cayenne is considered a circulatory and digestive stimulant. Some then confuse the word stimulant that it acts in the same way as a CNS stimulant such as cacao or caffeine. So it is seen as a villain because of that alone. Where in this case cayenne and chilli's are actually beneficial to the adrenal glands due to the vitamin C content.

In a perfect world with our health being in a state of homeostasis then yeah good nutritious food will or should keep you in good stead. But most don't or are not willing to see the full picture, optimal health is reliant on so many factors such as mental health, positive outlook, getting sunlight, exercise etc etc.

While a tiny bit of garlic (say like under an ounce) might not kill a person, my guess is that eating a pound of fresh garlic would make a person pretty sick. On the other hand, an amount of garlic that would not kill a person could easily kill a dog. So if a substance like garlic is toxic to a dog, what is the reaction between the cell of a dog and the garlic that kills a dog's cells?

I would have to guess that if you took a muscle cell of a dog, and compared it against a muscle cell in a human, they really aren't that much different. In fact, a human cell, without the defense of the human immune system, would die as easily as a dog cell is it were exposed to garlic (say by injection).

The human immune system is quite amazing. Human can make themselves immune to any poison, by starting out with a non-toxic dose, and slowly over a period of time (say years or more) slightly increasing the dose. At some point, the body can take what is ordinarily a toxic dose of poison and not be affected by it.

That analogy is abit like saying the amount of garlic that people use for there culinary experience is fine but an excess might kill them. The same can be applied to water, which in excess has been proven to kill you.

We aren't dogs though, theobromine can kill a dog because they cant metabolize it we can. Now although im not a fan of theobromine being a stimulant it goes to show us humans are different.

Its funny that a quantity as little as 1 pound or garlic is considered an excess, but in terms of greens or a banana or some water, 1 pound is just fine.

It seems to me that toxicity of any food or substance has to do with dosage. If something is not toxic at the level of what we can fill our stomach with, then it is pretty non toxic. If filling out 1/10th of our stomach with something will make us sick, its probably somewhat toxic.

Its not really and that is only in dogs not humans so again its pretty irrelevant.

Water toxicity is going to be much less for a dog, and again all this is pretty irrelevant to humans and why anything would be wanting to eat a pound of garlic anyway.

The size/weight/volume is much different for all foods.