Well, thank you too Fresh!

Yup, I'm definitely agreeing with the above post by Krefcenz.

In answer to your question Fresh: "still waiting for the part of the body that does not play a role in the immune system."

I didn't know if I could give you an accurate answer, so I asked my microbiology instructor, Dr Awaya. He thought about it for a moment or two and then told me that every part of the body plays a role in the immune system, because every part of the body is protected in some form from disease or attack. For example, he said yes, the membranes surrounding all of our cells are a part of the immune system, because they protect our cells. He said another example would be the enamel on our teeth. He also agreed that our cells are all involved with the immune system after they die, when they are engulfed by phagocytes and flushed from the body.

What part of the wiki quote do you think is "clearly false to anyone who has researched vaccinations..."?

Just FYI, the secondary response does not apply only to vaccinations. It is the body's natural response, and vaccinations use the response to promote immunity against a specific disease.

Of course we all know that vaccinations are not 100% successful, and there have been some tragic consequences. I remember when growing up that my boyfriend's older sister became retarded after her vaccination.

One concern I now have is the mercury that has commonly been used as a vaccination preservative. Not sure if they're still doing that or not.

But, vaccinations have saved millions of lives, and prevented much suffering. For example, smallpox, a disease possibly existing since 10,000 BC is pretty much now wiped out. The reality is, smallpox killed. Would you want your child to suffer like the child in this wiki link? [en.wikipedia.org]

So, there's good and bad.

My personal take on it is that if we could somehow combine the knowledge of science with the knowledge of better food and lifestyle, all for the common good.....



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2011 02:38AM by suncloud.

^_^ suncloud, good stuff

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Oh, mirror in the sky
What is love?
Can the child within my heart rise above?
Can I sail through the changing ocean tides?
Can I handle the seasons of my life?

>that many perfectly healthy people and some not so healthy benefited from a human intervention for a system - the immune system - that you claim does not exist. For many of these poor souls but for the vaccination they would be victims, not victors.

i do not share your opinion
do some research on vaccination theory and reality.

>In answer to your question Fresh: "still waiting for the part of the body that does not play a role in the immune system."
I didn't know if I could give you an accurate answer, so I asked my microbiology instructor, Dr Awaya. He thought about it for a moment or two and then told me that every part of the body plays a role in the immune system, because every part of the body is protected in some form from disease or attack.

as i said, if everything is part of the immune system, the conclusion therefore is that there is no immune system. a system must have boundaries. it must be defined. what we have is, "the body", and all of its actions throughout all parts.

all organisms have processes in every cell that maintain health.
if you want to call that "immune", and a "system", that's fine by me.
i do not. both words are flawed here.

and it is not just a word game.
words and concepts shape reality and responses, as i said, we then move to ideas like "eating X to strengthen my immune system", and others...


> But, vaccinations have saved millions of lives, and prevented much suffering. For example, smallpox, a disease possibly existing since 10,000 BC is pretty much now wiped out. The reality is, smallpox killed. Would you want your child to suffer like the child in this wiki link? [en.wikipedia.org]

absolutely false.
look at the charts. disease incidence fell prior to vaccinations.
there is much more evidence. you may want to research it before making further statements like this.

The whole human body works in synergism which various different organs, the heart for example. I think what sunclouds guy meant was that although the immune system is stand alone it requires other parts of the body to function.

Fresh, it's not logical for you to make up your own definition of "immune system", and then say the immune system doesn't exist!

It's like, for example, #1 says, "There's no such species as a wasp."

#2 says, "Yes there is", and shows #1 a photograph of a wasp.

Then #1 says, "No, that's not a wasp. Wasps look like 30-ft. wide purple and pink striped balloons that float around in the sky and drop feathers on people. There's nothing like that floating around in the sky, so wasps don't exist!"

Fresh, you have said the wiki link you provided (that refers to secondary immunity response) is "clearly false to anyone who has researched vaccinations...".

Anyone? What about all the medical doctors, naturopathic doctors, nurses, physical therapists, biologists, immunologists, and everyone else with a background that includes an actual study of the subject?

And you might not like the name, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

"Immune system" was defined by folks who spent their lifetimes studying it.

It's a "system" because it works together as a system. For example, "complement" (an innate immunity component made in the liver) functions to attack foreign microbes with the aid of T-cells generated through adaptive immunity.

The subject of the effectiveness and worthiness of vaccines is not the same as the subject of whether or not the body has an "immune system", although the two subjects are related. If you'd like to debate whether vaccines are good or bad, maybe other people will debate that with you.

Fresh, there's nothing wrong with saying, "eating X to strengthen my immune system".

As for whether or not there is such as thing as the body's "secondary immune response": in the thousands of years of smallpox history, I'm not aware of a single case of anyone contracting the disease twice. Are you?

>Fresh, it's not logical for you to make up your own definition of "immune system", and then say the immune system doesn't exist!

i didn't make up a definition. i stated a conceptual framework with respect to your response from your teacher about the whole body and i stated if it's the whole body, then there's no need to call it an immune system.


> "Immune system" was defined by folks who spent their lifetimes studying it.

the hiv causes aids hypothesis was defined by folks who spent their lifetimes studying it. you believe that too?


> Fresh, there's nothing wrong with saying, "eating X to strengthen my immune system".

nothing strengthens the immune system.
the body is the active agent.
it does not require specific foods.
it only requires proper foods and it will do its job.


> As for whether or not there is such as thing as the body's "secondary immune response": in the thousands of years of smallpox history, I'm not aware of a single case of anyone contracting the disease twice. Are you?

i don't have the time right now to get into that topic.

when you read the alternative view of vaccines then i would like to have a conversation, since you claim vaccines saved millions of lives.


peace

Peace to you too Fresh.

It was never my intent to debate vaccines. As for the existence of an "immune system", at this point I will agree to disagree.

Best regards!!!!!

fresh Wrote:
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> nothing strengthens the immune system.

Come on fresh that just isn't true, hundreds if not thousands of compounds have been shown to strengthen and stimulate the immune system, as well as modulate it.

#DW smokes bongs and tabacco yet 'organic bananas destroy ones immune and brain function'.

#DW says that fruit makes you fatigued yet he couldnt even run around the block and uses stimulants like cacao/coffee before he gets on stage to give his 3 hr infomercials.

#DW says he only eats under 2000cals a day but judging by his 'robust' stature we know otherwise.

#DW is trying to sue me in the Supreme Court of San Diego for using a youtube vid that featured clips of him talking. These clips are already up on youtube.

#DW sold 4000copies of NFL before he stop publishing it after admitting it was a blatant plagiarism of a dead Iranian raw foodist named Aterhov.

#DW needs to focus on health and fitness vs getting fatter and 'higher'.

Hope there's no hard feelings Fresh. Sometimes I get carried away. I sincerely apologize if I was too agressive in stating my opinion.

(Still agree with Powerlifer though )

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >that many perfectly healthy people and some not
> so healthy benefited from a human intervention for
> a system - the immune system - that you claim does
> not exist. For many of these poor souls but for
> the vaccination they would be victims, not
> victors.
>
> i do not share your opinion
> do some research on vaccination theory and
> reality.

Nor I yours, do your own research. [www.hhs.gov] [www.nytimes.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2011 05:28PM by Krefcenz.

well if I may say, DW in this video he is a good example of a pretty effective way to put on some weight -

so I guess all his supplements and products would be good for me to gain back a few pounds (ha, ha, ha)

[www.relfe.com]

i am aware of the standard medical opinion of vacc.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> [www.relfe.com]
>
> i am aware of the standard medical opinion of
> vacc.

Good. Hopefully you are also aware of the holes in Phillips arguments. If not, .... [www.rainbowpediatrics.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2011 08:23PM by Krefcenz.

[www.npr.org]
[www.cdc.gov]
[www.cdc.gov]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2011 08:30PM by Krefcenz.

that article by horwitz was truly and massively unconvincing.

but thanks for sharing.

funny, I was think the same thing about the Phillips article when I reflect on all of those polio victims I don't see now when I walk around. To each their own. Moving on.

Kref

b12 deficiency, iodine issues, homocysteine elevations are so rife in society that your local blood lab literally test for them hundreds of times per week. So unless there is hundreds of 811ers in your local area, that leaves for some explaining.

Its like if a vegan falls off a bicycle, its cos there 'a vegan'. Nobody falls off bikes except vegans! Nobody has b12, homocystein, iodine issues except 811ers!