I'm confused... I have been mostly raw for 2 years now and I'm still having some health problems... and so I started working with an acupuncturist on a work exchange basis... great right??? Of course I know chinese medicine isn't so into the raw foods thing... and he knows i am a raw foodist and so we haven't gotten into the food discussion yet... which i really appreciate from him...as it is something i feel very strongly about...

so here is where the confusion comes in... I have a book called Healing With Whole Foods... it is based on Chinese and modern nutrition... So he tells me Kidney Yang deficiency so I go and look it up... and it says in bold print foods to avoid... is everything that i am eating... which is cooling foods, raw foods, fruits... and a few others... so then it says well if you have this problem you have to also look at the spleen pancreas... and so i go and i look and ditto the same darned thing... and then ... well you get the idea...

now i know that it's my choice... and everyone has an opinion and there are so many nutritional ideas out there... but all the symptoms that they are describing are exactly what i am going through... almost to a T... so I'm wondering what I do... For the most part i have been pretty satisfied with my eating ... but now i wonder... am i making myself sick???

as a raw foodist what would you do???

love laugh and dream
g

I would go see a doctor and have ultrasounds and bloodwork done to determine what is wrong with me. I'm not that big on conventional medicine, but IMO, their diagnostics beat Oriental Medicine diagnostics cold. Now, curative therapies, that's a differnet story--acupuncture and herbs can be very useful. I think it's imporant to remember that in northern Asia, raw produce was not eaten traditionally, because of growing season, soil quality, climate etc., and that this culinary tradition informs the discipline rather more than concrete science does.

luvyuu,

When you first started to have these disorder symptoms, what was your diet and lifestyle like? That is, did you start feeling unwell after you started on raw veg?

@Luvyuu: This is so weird; I was gonna pose a similar question about Oriental Medicine and how they talk about some types being too damp and how that would relate to a diet like this with so much water in the food and all. You say that your health problems predated getting into raw foods so it's not so much raw making you sick and not curing you, right? After two years you haven't gotten more illnesses, have you? I think two years is plenty of time to gauge whether or not a diet is working for you but perhaps the tweaking doesn't have to be major. In other words, maybe you don't have to completely abandon this eating style in order to assist whatever issues you have. It's like Natasha and her B12 issues deciding to eat animal products after being completely raw vegan. She still eats mostly raw.

What symptoms are you having? Im not familiar not care for the traditional chinese medicine view of illness. Im not a great believer in Chi and alternative energies, i prefer to use herbs in a sort of western approach if needed.

Agree with tamukha.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

I agree with Tamukha. Take the good and leave the rest. Acupuncture and herbs may be helpful.

Quote from Tamukha: "...this culinary tradition informs the discipline rather more than concrete science does..."

It seems this may be true for humans and their medical traditions - wherever they happen to come from. People are people, and their belief systems often take priority over science - especially when it comes to diet.

A renaissance may take place somewhere in time that brings together some progressive knowledge, but then it may stop right there and become a new tradition that incorporates much of the old tradition along with it.

Studies have consistently shown that the nonnutritive content of raw plants - the fiber - is beneficial to our health. In additition, although all animals - including humans - are capable of synthesizing many nutrients from pieces of other nutrients, I'm not aware of any evidence to date that humans have acquired a unique ability that allows us to synthesize more nutrients destroyed by cooking than other animals could synthesize on their all-raw diets.

Yin/yang: It could be that the role of climate - as a balancing factor - may influence the health effects of eating certain foods at certain times of the year or in one climate as opposed to another. The plant foods available in colder climates are different from the plant foods available in warmer climates. All native species adapt to these changes, but only some humans attempt to mitigate yin/yang through cooking their food. Where is the overwhelming evidence that this is a viable approach? I don't think it exists.

Sometimes, as rawfoodists, we may find ourselves at a disadvantage when confronted by very strong beliefs based on established tradition. First of all, we have no established tradition. Second, by our nature, we're often more open to every possibility, including a "Kidney Yang deficiency." However, if there's such a thing, there's also such a thing as yin and yang raw foods. Maybe you could try sprouting some raw grains (if you don't already), and see what varieties/quantity/frequency make(s) you feel best.

Raw food is healthy, and it doesn't have to be a limiting factor if you don't restrict yourself from all the healthy raw food options that happen to make you feel good when you eat them. You do have to get your nutrients. If you get enough of all your nutrients while avoiding whatever quantity of any certain food doesn't make you feel good, and if you get plenty of exercise and adequate sunshine and rest, then there's no other diet that comes close (IMHO).

luvyuu-

In my experience, I am dealing with a long-standing health issue, and have come back to a raw vegan diet, 100% at this point. I agree with what Tamukha stated about going the western medicine route just for a diagnosis. This is what I did. The MD who ran my ultrasound and bloodwork (I have thyroid challenges), suggested that I add ridiculous amounts of meat protein to my diet, making it a predominant part. Not only was I a strict vegetarian at the time, but I believed wholeheartedly about the power of raw food. At the time, this was several years ago, I just didn't have whatever it took to overcome my psychological need for cooked food.

I was grateful for the diagnosis, however, and never went back to that doctor. Instead, I found alternative medical support that was more in alignment with my philosophy and what I knew to be true for me intuitively. It took me a while to figure it out, mostly because my situation did not really pose much of a health threat. I just lived with some minor discomfort.

Recently, due to stress and other things, my symptoms became worse. This forced me to become more active in really solving the issue and reclaiming my health. Since I had pretty much known the diagnosis, I researched online tirelessly for hours and hours, over many weeks, and have finally figured out a web of related imbalances. I know that returning to and committing to a pristine and balanced diet of raw vegan foods, and supplements specific to my condition, that I will find balance again.

The body has a built in mechanism to heal itself, on its own, given the proper tools, a positive mental outlook, and adequate rest. For me, I had to find support from sources that aligned with what I knew intuitively. If you have a firm belief and intuitive knowingness that Chinese medicine can assist you in healing, then go that route and embrace it fully, like many do and then find relief. But if their philosophy, including what they believe about food, goes against your better judgement, IMO it's better not to dabble a little here and a little there in multiple modalities, because they will not only contradict each other and confuse the heck out of you, but they most likely will be ineffective.

I hope you find your answers and your good health really soon!

Great advice in here so far. May I add that I believe experimentation to be beneficial... try some things and see how it makes you feel. Dogma never cured anyone of anything so far as I know so ditch the "rules" and do what makes you feel well.

What a wealth of wisdom... Thank you all for your responses... yes my symptoms did pre date my raw food life style... and while some of the things have improved... some have not... and even gotten worse... I know that detox happens and all that stuff but it gets hard to tell what is detox and what is not...

I have gone to dr's ... but unfortunately i don't have insurance and the last dr just said well we'll just do this one test and then she hardly gave me any information about what was going on and i had to ask all these questions to get her to even give me anything... i chose her because she was a western md and also practices acupuncture... so i thought she would be more helpful... she wasn't...

The acupuncturist i go to now is letting me do a work exchange which is very helpful... but i realize that i can't just sit around and hope someone will "FIX" me I have to do some work too... so i was taking his diagnosis and researching it... Chinese nutrition isn't ANTI raw... entirely... in fact the book i have does suggest raw for different ailments and different body types... but it seems for all my symptoms... it keeps pointing me into the non raw world...

really this diagnosis from this AP is pretty right on according to the research i have done... closer then any MD has ever told me... it has to do with damp conditions in the body and my kidney's being too cold ... so i was thinking of getting warming foods... still staying as Raw as I can... but maybe pouring warm water over some of my veg and making sure they are room temp instead of cold... and staying away from real cooling foods... like cucumber etc...

I don't know... I'm still rather confused about it... I thought on a raw foods diet i would feel great but I suppose It could be just the way i am doing... and then of course the stress of life... I will experiment... and see what feels good... honestly i feel best when i'm fasting... but everyone keeps telling me i can't fast all my life... and i think they are probably right...

so i will keep on researching and see what happens through trial and error and what not.

love and blessings to you all.

Never forget that many symptoms have can have multiple causes or there can be more than one thing going on.

If you do want to list some of your symptoms let us know.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Hi luvyuu,
one thing I have learned on my health journey is that its important to listen to your body and to be open to experimenting with different things. If i were you I'd try making small-ish changes, maybe not abandon raw completely, but like you said, try making your diet "warmer" while still raw or mostly raw. It could be just some small change that will help you feel better. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of tweaking and experimenting and waiting to see if you feel any difference to find these changes. Its a bit like searching for a needle in a haystack sometimes. I'm in a similar position myself right now. Sorry i don't have much advice, as I am struggling at the moment and trying to find the way to healing that is right for my body. I wish you the best and really hope you feel way better very soon
Nicole

luvyuu-

What you said about fasting I can relate to. I have always felt best during fasts (until now that I am eating simply, and all raw), and I have done many fasts over the years. In fact at one time I honestly thought that maybe I was allergic to food! haha. Not really possible, but it felt like it. Now I am realizing that perhaps the reason that I felt so good at those times, was because I was not eating things that made me feel so awful and were aggravating whatever was not quite right in my body.

So now, I am taking the very simplest of foods, and they are all raw vegan, and I feel better than when I fasted because I have clarity and.... I have energy. So maybe there is something going on with you that is food related? I don't know, just a thought.

And for the record, when I listed my symptoms in a thread a while back, Powerlifer and others offered much valuable feedback. You might want to consider doing that...

I'm no expert AT ALL, but I would say its mostly in your head/worry.

We ALL Worry, ME Especially, but we also worry about different things.

Feeling good/living a healthy life is about much more than Food. It involves other things that we are often COMPLETELY BLIND to. I would say check out some seminars on self-awareness, etc. if you want to dig deeper into this.

But if you are eating a Raw Diet, I would be hesitant to blame it exclusively on that. Not trying to say something against the professional you sited, just saying to look at it from a broader perspective.

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ok my symptoms... currently...

a strong poke in my right side
upper shoulder area sore as well...
lower back sore
peeing a lot but not always a lot of pee
short blasts of dizziness
un digested food in stool
weakness
coldness
lack of focus
lack of memory
breathing troubles
painful cramps during long heavy periods
hormonal imbalance
ovarian cyst large
not sleeping well
waking up tired'
acidic feelings
belching
GAS GAS GAS that doesn't seem to want to go anywhere...
nauseous not all the time but more often then i like...
post nasal drip...
irritable
angry
recovering from eating disorder is that a symptom I don't know... but several of you have asked symptoms... so there you go

ok that's it for me for tonight... need to meditate and sleep... will read and write more tomorrow...

Thank you all so much for your time i really really appreciate YOU!!!

love laugh and dream

Sounds like possible liver/gallbladder issues and or digestive.

The acidic feelings, gas and belching are likely from a lack of stomach acid, you could try bitter herbs on the back of the tongue pre meal and/or betaine/raw apple cider vinegar to see if it helps. The above will help with digestion thus helping the undigested food. The bitters also stimulate bile flow and cleanse the liver so you will be taking care of both of these here. Cleansing your liver with bitters will help some of your symptoms such as hormonal imbalances, an efficient working liver can metabolize and break down excess hormones. Vitamin B's are needed for liver to achieve this also.

Will be back in abit with more information have to rush out now.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

luvyuu I know your symptoms can be caused by more than one thing. I have had many of them and in my case one thing was candida caused by over use of antibiotics in the past and the other, more important was chronic hyperventilation syndrome - its something very common but not often paid attention to.
the fact that you have difficulty breathing and post nasal drip makes it ring a bell for me.
I would check a buteyko website for how to check your CP and if it is below 20 would recommend either buteyko or similar. I have so much more energy and less back pain, menstural pain etc,. with that. may not cure everything overnight but I think it will help a lot.

that is what I would do and about raw eating you could post what you normally eat here and see if anyone thinks that there are things that could be worked on.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would go see a doctor and have ultrasounds and
> bloodwork done to determine what is wrong with me.
> I'm not that big on conventional medicine, but
> IMO, their diagnostics beat Oriental Medicine
> diagnostics cold. Now, curative therapies, that's
> a differnet story--acupuncture and herbs can be
> very useful.
>
Well I just thought I'd say Tamukha - a really good Chinese or ayurvedic doctor can know everything wrong in your body in detail just by checking your pulse - and I mean on a physical level not only yin and yang - I
ve experienced this personally. But unfortnately its not easy to find that type of practitioner nowadays....
Most ayurvedic / Chinese doctors normally advise me agains eating a lot of raw food and recently I just ignore that advice - but any ideas why that system came about??its confusing for me because I respect a lot about their wisdom otherwise....and do cold foods really create coldness in the body? Wouldnt they just get to body temperature once they reach your stomach anyway?

merry,

That was my point upthread--it's the traditional dietary culture influencing the medicine, rather than the other way around. The climate in northern Asia has never been right for the growing of sweet fruits and most of the vegetable crops that can easily be eaten raw. Being that these types of foods weren't common to that culture until recently, it stands to reason that raw foods would be associated with biological disharmony and discouraged. There is literally no science behind the idea that "damp" foods cause kidney problems--to the contrary. As far as diagnosis by pulse goes, yes, this is still a valid way to guess/deduce the region of the disorder, as are things like skin discoloration, condition of fingernails and tongue, smell of breath, etc. But to understand specifically whether there is any tissue damage to an organ, and whether that's in a critical location, for example, you need something better than guesstimation, IMO.

luvyuu,

Agree that your symptoms sound more consistent with liver and gallbladder problems than with kidneys. Could you go to a free clinic and at least have a liver panel done through blood work?

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> luvyuu,
>
> Agree that your symptoms sound more consistent
> with liver and gallbladder problems than with
> kidneys. Could you go to a free clinic and at
> least have a liver panel done through blood work?

The only problem is liver function blood tests can often miss several more benign liver problems, but in my opinion fatty liver are often the first steps before more advanced and serious liver disease. The tests generally only show more serious liver issues. There are some good gallbladder tests though in which you can check how well the gallbladder is functioning. But yeah i agree with tamukha always best to get checked professionally.

I had really bad upper right quadrant pain for about 6 years and the doctors did nothing even with elevated liver enzymes. Since bitters and other liver herbs which improve liver and gallbladder/bile flow ive never had a problem since.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Yeah I know I have liver gallbladder issues... with in chinese medicine they all work off of each other... my AP is actually working on this as well but there is also the kidney stuff... I'm actually planning on doing a liver/GB flush this week to see if that will help... we were working on that and then another thing popped up... i think it was more like we cleaned a few things up and realized there was more to it...

where do i get these bitter herbs and what bitter herbs do I get?

love laugh and dream
g

If it is the traditional large amount of olive oil type liver flush id give it a miss its a scam and the "stones" are just a mixture of the olive oil/epsom salt etc through a process known as saponification. The large amounts of oil would likely stress your liver/gallbladder further.

You can get pre made digestive bitter formulas give swedish bitters a miss as they contains stimulant laxative herbs which can weaken bowel function. Chinese bitters are a good choice or if your looking for individual herbs then bupleurum root is a good choice. They must come in contact with the back of the tongue(bitter receptors) to work.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

hmmm... I've done the liver flush before and it seemed to work wonders... i can't imagine that what came out of me was just oil and salt cause they were quite large we're talking an inch across it was a triangle in shape and very green like the bile.... I've heard that same argument but i've also heard other arguments that were for it... i'll read more about it and reconsider...

i'll look for the bitters...

so I asked him more detail today about what he thought i should be looking at... and he said Kidney yang deficiency... spleen deficiency... and liver blood deficiency ... I have a damp condition ... he says i need to build my blood and he understands how passionate i am about the way i eat ... is why he hasn't pushed it... but really the best way to do that is through protein... and yes he means meat... lamb to be specific... but through herbs and AP he said it is working only very slowly... and of course it is up to me on what i want to do !!! which i respect from him cause i've been to other Chinese Doc's who have gotten angry with me for being vegetarian... it's silly really

so now i have more info to research and see what i can do and how i can boost my protein ..... some times i wonder if there are just certain body types that can't hack the veg/ raw diet... but i'd like to try... so I will!

blessings to you all

love laugh and dream

Hey good luck luvuu!

(poor little lambs, gee!)

From my experience having a large cyst can also cause the indigestion and nausea and lower back pain as well as frequent urination - what type of cyst is it and any way to remove it if its a long term thing?

an ovarian cyst... I'm choosing not to have it cut out... I believe the body is quite capable of healing itself when given the opportunity to do so and the proper environment and such...

fear not my fine raw vegan friends I'm not reaching for the wee l'il lambs just yet

love laugh and dream

Hi luvyuu,

that's awesome that you're getting acupuncture! I wish i could get acupuncture, but it's like 120 bucks per visit around here. That alone should help some, but about the kidney yang definciency, I wouldn't go off of raw, but maybe go the herbal route and see if there's some kind of herbs you could take to help restore your balance, or if there's some kind of herbs or spices you could add to your diet that might help. i mean, i don't think some medicinal hot tea to treat a condition is going to negate all the benefits of raw foodism. there's also exercise too. if you're interested in asian health stuff, some taichi or qigong may just have your right prescription. ( there's one easy taichi move i learned that is supposed to stimulate/balance your kidneys: you simply stand up straight with your hands loose at your sides, rise up on your toes, then drop your body weight on your heels maybe like ten times in a row. I know i've felt a benefit from this move.)

about your list of health complaints, have you had a diabetes check? some of your symptoms sound like warning signs for diabetes! (I'm prediabetic, it's genetic.) thankfully, watching my diet has kept it so far from developing.

i can't believe doctors have been pushing meat on you! that just doesn't sound right. especially chinese ones. they sound like quacks! pound for pound almonds and other nuts have almost as much protein as meat right? i guess that is where raw foodism gets tricky. where to get enough protein. that's okay, i alternate between pretending i'm a cow grazing on salad or i'm a squirrel munching on raw nuts all day long.. (though i do make room for some occasional cooked lentils and quinoa or even a couple slices of pizza - don't everybody boo - hiss at the same time please)

still, though, i'd read up on diabetes if I were you (left untreated can cause blindness or permanent circulatory damage)

I lived in china for three years. What I can tell you is the meat quality is worse than dog food, dairy is really bad, their green veggies are all bitter-it would be very hard to juice them and yet orientals look very young until they hit about 40. Then they age like everyone else. They do eat a lot of fruit (after meals which causes fermentation), and they eat stir-fry veggies to fill up, not on meat. But overall, their diet is less harmful eating rice, then the rest of the world eating white pasta and white bread.

My video to keep me inspired on my health quest: [www.youtube.com]

Luvyuu,

I have great confidence in your aversion to eating little lambs.

I had an ovarian cyst once and had it taken out. I just didn't want it in there. It was totally benign, but about the size of a large orange!

Exercise seems to help everything, at least for me, particularly outdoor exercise, like long walks, running...

It helps me feel happy, and also helps me sleep at night. Maybe you already exercise enough; but if you think you could exercise more, then it might be something else to try.

There are different types of ovarian cyst and some resolve better on their own than others. But generally I have always read that for menstural issues, endometriosis etc. a vegan diet is indicated and that meat / dairy can worsen or aggravate symptoms.
I have been researching something called DIM recently (extract from cruciferous vegetables ) which is for eostrogen dominant conditions such as ovarian cysts, endo etc. it might be worth looking into.

I agree with marsh; the implication that eating meat, even what the Chinese Medicine practioner believes to be less allergenic meat--lamb--will help reduce endometrial inflammation and eliminate the cyst is not borne out even by the wooly[sorry, couldn't resist] theories of conventional medicine.