Loved his bike riding videos!

Anyone who tries to teach and inspire without trying to make a living from it. I know a guy who helps people for free, never tries to sell blenders or juicers, doesn't sell "healthy" chocolate, is as fit and real as you can get and who makes his money working construction. He's totally dedicated to the concept of raw foods as something that's sacred. He's a true warrior for peace. I'm glad that you guys are inspired, but I guess that my consciousness tells me that raw was not placed here for individuals to relieve us of our money. It's bad enough with corporate agriculture and its billionaires. Don't some of these people that have been mentioned sell colostrum? Isn't this a raw vegan site?

Wolfe's site: [www.longevitywarehouse.com]

Monarch and Stokes' site: [www.therawfoodworld.com]

Hopefully were not all tarred with the same brush though, i do make a living(if i can call it that) for the past year and a half selling herbs and other products i genuinely believe in and most if not all backed up via years of personal research and studies etc from my site.

For the past year i haven't linked my store in my signature on here for that very reason as i find a small few people have judged my posts because of that. I like to think i am genuine with my help and that i really care for those who i do try help with any knowledge i have picked up along the way from being ill myself and never really even direct people to my site as a result.

The main reason why ive started linking back to my store for the past week or so on here, is that i spend more time on these types of forums answering peoples PM's and posts than i do on my business lol. I can only think of 2 people from this site who have placed an order with my store(appreciated by the way), 99% i am answering PMs helping others at 1am at night that lead to no gain for me and im happy with that as i am doing it to help others not for my gain. Just gets me down when we all get tarred with the same brush at times(hopefully that didn't come across snarky lol)

Anyway just thought id put out that were not all looking to pull people in via extravagant marketing to buy things they don't often need.

[www.amlaberry.co.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2011 07:10PM by powerlifer.

I never heard of selling colostrum. It's advertised as being very special because it's only produced by the mother within the first few hours before and after a birth.

In that case, shouldn't it be going to the baby goat???????

How would we mothers like it if someone came and stole our colostrum when we were in labor, so that they could have it instead of our baby? Is that good? Is it right?

Thank you HeavenHands for informing us of this deplorable practice.

Definitely, I agree with Powerlifer that everyone shouldn't be painted with the same brush.

There are a lot of products out there on the market that are really helpful, and someone has to sell them if the rest of us are going to be able to buy them.

The friend of HeavenHands should be commended for helping people without making money from it. However, we all have to make a living somehow; and if we can do it by helping people, then that should be commended as well.(IMHO)

Very true suncloud.

As to colostrum sadly this has been going on for a number of years as a "health food". When it was first sold rival manufacturers found some batches contained pus and blood(eeek).

Its largely rather useless as a supplement also as the antibodies that it is touted for aren't even absorbed in the gut after you are 2 years old. The growth factors are another benefit you hear about but they arent in high enough levels to be of beneficial effect, much better using chlorella for its CGF(chlorella growth factor) which is also vegan.

[www.amlaberry.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/2011 08:06PM by powerlifer.

Angela Stokes-Monarch impresses me the most out of any of them because of her accomplishment. Most people in her situation would've gotten a surgery but she did it the natural way. When you hear her tell of those days before raw it's amazing how far she's come, not just in pounds lost but also the quantity of food she consumed in a single day. I am impressed with Matt, too, even if I tweak him here and there. He has created a viable business, been raw over a decade and is creating an amazing environment around him in Ecuador.

I was only trying to point out that some of these raw vegan role models sell a decidedly non-raw vegan product and that exposure to their money-making egos detracts from my quest. I was also trying to convey my opinion that the best role-models are the ones who are completely unquestionable in their raw foodism. I'm not too hip on food processor and blender salesmen who use raw foods and their fake Christ images as sales tools either.

I have no problem with herbs or even raw vegan superfoods, but I draw a serious line with colostrum and anyone who does direct or indirect business with it. Selling Surthrival chaga supports the colostrum trade.


powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hopefully were not all tarred with the same brush
> though, i do make a living(if i can call it that)
> for the past year and a half selling herbs and
> other products i genuinely believe in and most if
> not all backed up via years of personal research
> and studies etc from my site.
>
> For the past year i haven't linked my store in my
> signature on here for that very reason as i find a
> small few people have judged my posts because of
> that. I like to think i am genuine with my help
> and that i really care for those who i do try help
> with any knowledge i have picked up along the way
> from being ill myself and never really even direct
> people to my site as a result.
>
> The main reason why ive started linking back to my
> store for the past week or so on here, is that i
> spend more time on these types of forums answering
> peoples PM's and posts than i do on my business
> lol. I can only think of 2 people from this site
> who have placed an order with my store(appreciated
> by the way), 99% i am answering PMs helping others
> at 1am at night that lead to no gain for me and im
> happy with that as i am doing it to help others
> not for my gain. Just gets me down when we all get
> tarred with the same brush at times(hopefully that
> didn't come across snarky lol)
>
> Anyway just thought id put out that were not all
> looking to pull people in via extravagant
> marketing to buy things they don't often need.
>
> [www.amlaberry.co.uk]

FTFY

banana who Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Angela Stokes-Monarch impresses me the most out of
> any of them because of her accomplishment. Most
> people in her situation would've gotten a surgery
> but she did it the natural way. When you hear her
> tell of those days before raw it's amazing how far
> she's come, not just in pounds lost but also the
> quantity of food she consumed in a single day. I
> am impressed with Matt, too, even if I tweak him
> here and there. He has created a viable business,
> been raw over a decade and is creating an amazing
> environment around him in Ecuador...AND SELLING COLOSTRUM.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/15/2011 04:44PM by HeavenHands.

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was only trying to point out that some of these
> raw vegan role models sell a decidedly non-raw
> vegan product and that exposure to their
> money-making egos detracts from my quest. I was
> also trying to convey my opinion that the best
> role-models are the ones who are completely
> unquestionable in their raw foodism. I'm not too
> hip on food processor and blender salesmen who use
> raw foods and their fake Christ images as sales
> tools either.
>
> I have no problem with herbs or even raw vegan
> superfoods, but I draw a serious line with
> colostrum and anyone who does direct or indirect
> business with it. Selling Surthrival chaga
> supports the colostrum trade.

I know what you were meaning HH it was past opinion i was meaning not your post.

Although i dont agree with that selling chaga etc supports the colostrum trade, only buying colostrum does that. Same brand sure but the only thing that will increase demand for colostrum is people buying it, so we can educate them like i have said above that there are really no benefits to using it.

[www.amlaberry.co.uk]

I agree that "we all have to make a living somehow," but I do think it's important for people on a raw vegan forum to understand that Wolfe, Vitalis, and Monarch sell colostrum. It's also useful to consider the possibility that exposure to raw salespeople and the raw trade detracts from the consciousness raising aspect of raw.

One guy I like is Robert Morse. He understands what it's like to have a real, regular people job and seems to be sincerely committed to helping people for reasonable compensation. I buy herbs from him. If anyone knows of any issues surrounding his integrity, I'd be grateful to hear them. I have yet to find any. When someone like Morse starts going face to face with cancer and doing battle with it, I can't even begin to compare him to the distant internet salesperson and youtube "personality." He exists in a completely different realm of experience.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Definitely, I agree with Powerlifer that everyone
> shouldn't be painted with the same brush.
>
> There are a lot of products out there on the
> market that are really helpful, and someone has to
> sell them if the rest of us are going to be able
> to buy them.
>
> The friend of HeavenHands should be commended for
> helping people without making money from it.
> However, we all have to make a living somehow; and
> if we can do it by helping people, then that
> should be commended as well.(IMHO)

We definitely disagree on that. If I buy Surthrival chaga I do believe that I help Surthrival's colostrum biz. It's all a matter of subjective common sense I suppose. I have no problem with you. I appreciate and admire a lot of the things you do. I just don't understand the Surthrival thing. I suppose it's better than selling "health bars" made by Kraft or something.

Peace.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HeavenHands Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I was only trying to point out that some of
> these
> > raw vegan role models sell a decidedly non-raw
> > vegan product and that exposure to their
> > money-making egos detracts from my quest. I was
> > also trying to convey my opinion that the best
> > role-models are the ones who are completely
> > unquestionable in their raw foodism. I'm not
> too
> > hip on food processor and blender salesmen who
> use
> > raw foods and their fake Christ images as sales
> > tools either.
> >
> > I have no problem with herbs or even raw vegan
> > superfoods, but I draw a serious line with
> > colostrum and anyone who does direct or
> indirect
> > business with it. Selling Surthrival chaga
> > supports the colostrum trade.
>
> I know what you were meaning HH it was past
> opinion i was meaning not your post.
>
> Although i dont agree with that selling chaga etc
> supports the colostrum trade, only buying
> colostrum does that. Same brand sure but the only
> thing that will increase demand for colostrum is
> people buying it, so we can educate them like i
> have said above that there are really no benefits
> to using it.
>
> [www.amlaberry.co.uk]

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We definitely disagree on that. If I buy
> Surthrival chaga I do believe that I help
> Surthrival's colostrum biz. It's all a matter of
> subjective common sense I suppose. I have no
> problem with you. I appreciate and admire a lot of
> the things you do. I just don't understand the
> Surthrival thing. I suppose it's better than
> selling "health bars" made by Kraft or something.
>

What it mainly comes down to for me is that surthrivals chaga capsules and tinctures are in my opinion one if not the best quality chaga mushroom in the industry and as such im a big fan of there mushroom products in general.

Many of the companies who sell b12 sublinguals and such that others take also manufacture whey protein or non vegan products etc. So i cant really the correlation that those who are buying b12 supplements are increasing that trade either. Only purchasing these products such as colostrum or whey will increase the demand and all we can do is educate that there are much better ethical vegan choices such as chlorella or hemp seed protein.

[www.amlaberry.co.uk]

I appreciate you HeavenHands for spreading awareness.

I really think there are enough vegan supplements available that a person should be able to avoid selling such things.

When I see someone who claims to be a raw food vegan selling stuff like colostrum and deer antler essence (David Wolfe and Monarch/Stokes), I tend to hold them to a higher standard. Since they claim to be raw food VEGANS, people often don't even realize that these products AREN'T vegan.

Many people think that deer antler essence is the velvet on the antlers that's somehow just scraped off the antlers. No! The "farmers" wait until the antlers are covered with velvet, and then the whole set of antlers is sawed off the deers' heads, leaving bloody exposed marrow, where there was once a fine set of antlers for the deer to display, defend themselves, etc.

It's just sick, but certainly within the realm of the norm for animal abuse that people commonly accept today. I just expect more from someone who calls themself a "raw food vegan". Do these guys eat these things themselves? Then they're not vegans.

It's a letdown for sure, because to me, being vegan is just so much more important than being raw. Being raw can earn a person more attention because of the novelty of it I guess.

But I tend to see it like this: Being raw is mostly for me. Being vegan is for the animals and the planet.

When I first became vegan, I didn't feel this way. I was vegan for me. My husband became vegan at the same time, but for the animals, not for his health. I admired that, and I wanted to be like that too. So I purposely cultivated a stronger empathy for animals. It worked, but now, seeing this kind of thing just really hurts. When I see products like colostrum and deer antler essence or whatever, I can't even understand anymore how a person could see those words and not think of the SUFFERING. So when I see a raw food vegan selling such things, I just feel like, well, what's the real point (for these particular people) in being raw or any of this?

Thanks for understanding what I was trying to get across. Sometimes I'm not the greatest communicator.

Peace.


suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I appreciate you HeavenHands for spreading
> awareness.
>
> I really think there are enough vegan supplements
> available that a person should be able to avoid
> selling such things.
>
> When I see someone who claims to be a raw food
> vegan selling stuff like colostrum and deer antler
> essence (David Wolfe and Monarch/Stokes), I tend
> to hold them to a higher standard. Since they
> claim to be raw food VEGANS, people often don't
> even realize that these products AREN'T vegan.
>
> Many people think that deer antler essence is the
> velvet on the antlers that's somehow just scraped
> off the antlers. No! The "farmers" wait until
> the antlers are covered with velvet, and then the
> whole set of antlers is sawed off the deers'
> heads, leaving bloody exposed marrow, where there
> was once a fine set of antlers for the deer to
> display, defend themselves, etc.
>
> It's just sick, but certainly within the realm of
> the norm for animal abuse that people commonly
> accept today. I just expect more from someone who
> calls themself a "raw food vegan". Do these guys
> eat these things themselves? Then they're not
> vegans.
>
> It's a letdown for sure, because to me, being
> vegan is just so much more important than being
> raw. Being raw can earn a person more attention
> because of the novelty of it I guess.
>
> But I tend to see it like this: Being raw is
> mostly for me. Being vegan is for the animals and
> the planet.
>
> When I first became vegan, I didn't feel this way.
> I was vegan for me. My husband became vegan at
> the same time, but for the animals, not for his
> health. I admired that, and I wanted to be like
> that too. So I purposely cultivated a stronger
> empathy for animals. It worked, but now, seeing
> this kind of thing just really hurts. When I see
> products like colostrum and deer antler essence or
> whatever, I can't even understand anymore how a
> person could see those words and not think of the
> SUFFERING. So when I see a raw food vegan selling
> such things, I just feel like, well, what's the
> real point (for these particular people) in being
> raw or any of this?

I agree with your analysis of colostrum. The scammers who sell it rely on junk science and dishonesty. I don't want to support that business approach, even if I'm buying truly beneficial raw vegan products from the hucksters who lie about colostrum having any real health benefits. I do give Vitalis credit for being honest about who he is. He's open about being a carnivore.

[www.youtube.com]

None of these used-car colostrum salesmen look raw healthy to me.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very true suncloud.
>
> As to colostrum sadly this has been going on for a
> number of years as a "health food". When it was
> first sold rival manufacturers found some batches
> contained pus and blood(eeek).
>
> Its largely rather useless as a supplement also as
> the antibodies that it is touted for aren't even
> absorbed in the gut after you are 2 years old. The
> growth factors are another benefit you hear about
> but they arent in high enough levels to be of
> beneficial effect, much better using chlorella for
> its CGF(chlorella growth factor) which is also
> vegan.
>
> [www.amlaberry.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2011 03:34PM by HeavenHands.

Some other folks I like are Matt Warner and Roger Haeske. They both pass the eyeball test and seem very grounded and honest in who they are. They're trying to make a living from the lifestyle, but I have yet to sense that used car salesman level of aggression from them that we get from a lot of these people. They come off as humble, healthy, and real in their concerns.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Many people think that deer antler essence is the
> velvet on the antlers that's somehow just scraped
> off the antlers. No! The "farmers" wait until
> the antlers are covered with velvet, and then the
> whole set of antlers is sawed off the deers'
> heads, leaving bloody exposed marrow, where there
> was once a fine set of antlers for the deer to
> display, defend themselves, etc.



ACK! Good grief, who is doing that?! Who is Selling, who is buying it? How does garbage like that even HAPPEN?! Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh.

Thank you coco! My sentiments exactly.

<ACK! Good grief, who is doing that?! Who is Selling, who is buying it? How does garbage like that even HAPPEN?! Ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh.

Answer? The usual suspects!

[3.bp.blogspot.com]


Read all about it! [www.rawfreedomcommunity.info]

*Scroll down to Matt Monarch's statement on how they "harvest" the antlers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2011 06:00PM by banana who.

Thanks banana. I was surprised to learn that Matt and Angela were selling this stuff. I had previously thought of them as young, idealistic raw vegan advocates.

Unfortunately the Raw Food World statement about deer antlers leaves out information that vegans might consider important, and it seems somewhat misleading to claim that the antlers are "harvested under the auspices of licensed and trained veterinarians".

Fact: In New Zealand, the presence of a veterinarian is required only for surgery to prevent antler growth. But for harvesting the antlers, New Zealand law requires just a "training" period with a veterinarian who then certifies the "farmers" to proceed mostly on their own.

"The veterinarian must be present on a minimum of one further occasion during the velvet harvest season."

"After compliance with the minimum standards the approving veterinarian will issue a certificate of approval."

[www.biosecurity.govt.nz]

Fact: The "velvet" is not moss that's rubbed onto the antlers from trees or whatever. The "velvet" is a skin covering (complete with veins and nerves) that occurs during a stage of antler growth.

"Velvet antler is defined as growing antler which contains an abundant blood and nerve supply and which has a fully intact skin with a covering of fine soft hair."

[www.biosecurity.govt.nz]

Fact: The velvet isn't "clipped" off the horn. The entire set of antlers is sawed off. (with a saw)

"After the tourniquet has been applied, the velvet is cut off using a sharp saw...

It is best to start cutting from the inside, to avoid cutting into the skull. Care should be taken to avoid tearing at the brow line by making a cut at the front."

[www.dpiw.tas.gov.au]

Fact: The procedure is painful.

"During its development the antler is covered by skin ('velvet') which carries blood and nerves to and from the antler. A strong sensory nerve output ensures that the deer is aware of the fragile, growing antler and protects it from damage."

"Where the velveting procedure is undertaken without analgesia or anaesthesia, the deer's behaviour indicates that the cutting causes significant pain."

[www.daff.gov.au]

Fact: The wounds can become infected:

From a welfare viewpoint, it must be remembered that all antlers in velvet have a well developed nerve and blood supply, and wounds associated with their removal can become infected.

[www.biosecurity.govt.nz]

Fact: People have "harvested" antlers using stun guns.

"currently available electro-immobilisation devices have not been shown to produce adequate analgesia..."

[www.daff.gov.au]

Fact: There is no guarantee that any sedatives are used.

I have pictures of an antler operation in Russia, but now the site has porn on it, so I can't post a link.

This is the product they are selling right now: [www.therawfoodworld.com]

What is of concern is the phrase:

<At approximately day 60 of the growing cycle, the deer are gathered together from the free range, and the antlers are harvested under the auspices of licensed and trained veterinarians. After a few days, when it has been determined that the animals are all in good health, they are returned the free range for the remainder of the year.>

Questions: How are they "harvested," how is it determined that they are "in good health" and how are they kept for those three days in between? It's actually horrifying to me that they are just randomly going around and chopping off antlers just like that. I don't care how quickly they grow back; it's odd to me that a raw fooder who is also a vegan could justify using animals for his product.

My eyeballs have revolted and refuse to read any more of the horror show printed above. My Gawd, what a freaking nightmare. Seriously, you guys, WHO is doing this and thinking it's OK?

The Raw Food world has officially left the planet. Bye-bye, you two, and write us when you get to, um, wherever it is you're trying to get to . . .

That info is hard to digest, but I thank you for taking the time to collect it.

Peace.

suncloud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks banana. I was surprised to learn that Matt
> and Angela were selling this stuff. I had
> previously thought of them as young, idealistic
> raw vegan advocates.
>
> Unfortunately the Raw Food World statement about
> deer antlers leaves out information that vegans
> might consider important, and it seems somewhat
> misleading to claim that the antlers are
> "harvested under the auspices of licensed and
> trained veterinarians".
>
> Fact: In New Zealand, the presence of a
> veterinarian is required only for surgery to
> prevent antler growth. But for harvesting the
> antlers, New Zealand law requires just a
> "training" period with a veterinarian who then
> certifies the "farmers" to proceed mostly on their
> own.
>
> "The veterinarian must be present on a minimum of
> one further occasion during the velvet harvest
> season."
>
> "After compliance with the minimum standards the
> approving veterinarian will issue a certificate of
> approval."
>
> [www.biosecurity.govt.nz]
> s/antlers/index.htm
>
> Fact: The "velvet" is not moss that's rubbed onto
> the antlers from trees or whatever. The "velvet"
> is a skin covering (complete with veins and
> nerves) that occurs during a stage of antler
> growth.
>
> "Velvet antler is defined as growing antler which
> contains an abundant blood and nerve supply and
> which has a fully intact skin with a covering of
> fine soft hair."
>
> [www.biosecurity.govt.nz]
> s/antlers/index.htm
>
> Fact: The velvet isn't "clipped" off the horn.
> The entire set of antlers is sawed off. (with a
> saw)
>
> "After the tourniquet has been applied, the velvet
> is cut off using a sharp saw...
>
> It is best to start cutting from the inside, to
> avoid cutting into the skull. Care should be taken
> to avoid tearing at the brow line by making a cut
> at the front."
>
> [www.dpiw.tas.gov.au]
> -4ZT6NG?open
>
> Fact: The procedure is painful.
>
> "During its development the antler is covered by
> skin ('velvet') which carries blood and nerves to
> and from the antler. A strong sensory nerve output
> ensures that the deer is aware of the fragile,
> growing antler and protects it from damage."
>
> "Where the velveting procedure is undertaken
> without analgesia or anaesthesia, the deer's
> behaviour indicates that the cutting causes
> significant pain."
>
> [www.daff.gov.au]
> /nccaw/guidelines/livestock/antler
>
> Fact: The wounds can become infected:
>
> From a welfare viewpoint, it must be remembered
> that all antlers in velvet have a well developed
> nerve and blood supply, and wounds associated with
> their removal can become infected.
>
> [www.biosecurity.govt.nz]
> s/antlers/index.htm
>
> Fact: People have "harvested" antlers using stun
> guns.
>
> "currently available electro-immobilisation
> devices have not been shown to produce adequate
> analgesia..."
>
> [www.daff.gov.au]
> /nccaw/guidelines/livestock/antler
>
> Fact: There is no guarantee that any sedatives
> are used.
>
> I have pictures of an antler operation in Russia,
> but now the site has porn on it, so I can't post a
> link.

I've had different inspirations throughout my raw food journey, there is to many to list them all. Anne Wigmore's book moved me to tears due to her loving heart. I enjoyed reading Tonya Zavasta's book and think of her as a beautiful soul. Getting my ordered book by Anne Osborne was the sweetest experience ever. I still keep the packaging, with a beautiful art form of an address with fruit, sun and hearts. Having her book is like having a friend. More recently, I've been impressed by Tim VanOrden, the most radiant person in a room full of younger people at the Woodstock Fruit Festival. I enjoyed watching his talks on youtube and love his sense of humor. And in the very recent days, I was inspired by reading the Vision of Eden by Mango Wodzak.


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