What are some good sources of essential fatty acids? I dont want to be taking fish oil capsules for my omega acids.

Hey there!

Great question! Raw vegan sources of omega fatty acids include vegetable oils (corn oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, olive oil), flaxseed, walnuts, chia seeds, lentils, pumpkin seeds, leafy vegetables, hemp oil.

Apparently, plants cannot provide the body with two types of omega-3 fatty acids: eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). To produce these two, the body must convert alpha-linolenic acid to EPA, and subsequently DHA, which requires more metabolic work. So these two acids are more readily absorbed from animal products, but they can still be converted by the body from plant sources.

Hope the info I provided was helpful.

Keeping it raw at [rawfoodhealthwatch.com]

WanderRa-

Great question. I wanted to ask it myself. There is new research out there that indicates many long time followers of a plant based diet are extremely low in omega 3's, and that the sources just stated by vegmichelle, as well as algae-based supplements, all commonly believed to be good, are not really very effective. I know there is a solution, and I know it doesn't have to be fish oil. There are plant based sources.

I am currently looking into clary sage oil, which is rich in omega 3's, and also marine phytoplankton, the ocean source from which fish get theirs.

Who else has heard about this recent study, and what do you think?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2011 02:40PM by marsh.

Dave Waynarowski, MD is the person who ran all of these blood tests on people with long time plant-based diets. I just heard about him yesterday, actually. I listened to an interview and read some of his stuff. It made me really think about this. Even though he is just one person... he may be binging up a good point worth considering.

Most plant oil sources are higher in omega-6. But chia and flax are both around 3X higher in omega-3.

A very good ratio would be 2:1 (omega-6: omega-3). A superb ratio would be 1:1.

Hempseed is about 2.5:1 (omega-6: omega-3), so that's pretty good.

Walnuts are about at a 4:1 ratio. (omega-6: omega-3) That's OK compared to say sunflower seeds which are about 300:1!

I think chia is the key. Chia alone would be too much omega-3, but if a person's chia quantity is about equal to the quantity of the higher omega-6 nuts/seeds, it averages out very well to around 2:1 (omega-6: omega-3), because many fruits and vegetables contain some fats in the range of around 1:1.

Anyway, that's how it seems to add up when I enter all my foods for a day on nutritiondata.com.

To check out a plant oil or nut or seed, you can go to nutritiondata.com and enter it for search. You don't have to register to do a search. The fats column in the chart for that food will be on the lower left. It will include omega 3 and omega 6. (Unfortunately nutritiondata doesn't have info on hemp) Here is the chart for sunflower seeds:

[nutritiondata.self.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2011 07:56AM by suncloud.

This article says:

"According to a study published today in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, vegans -- who eat no fish or fish oil and eschew animal products -- have the same blood levels of Omega-3 as the heavy fish eaters, and HIGHER DHA levels...

"Despite having significantly lower intakes of EPA and DHA (from fish or fish oil), blood levels of EPA and DHA in vegans and vegetarians were approximately the same as regular fish eaters.

"The results indicate that the bodies of vegetarians and other non-fish-eaters can respond to a lack of dietary omega-3 EPA and DHA by increasing their ability to make them from omega-3 ALA."

[www.vegsource.com]

suncloud-

I have always believed that the plant based food sources you listed were good sources of omega 3. But I've recently learned that many factors can hinder the body’s ability to convert omega 3 fatty acid ALA/LNA EFAs to DHA and EPA.

The article you cited is hopeful, but I noticed it was written in 2010. There is new and more recent evidence that that is not true. It would really make life a lot easier if it were... and I wish I knew more about nutrition and how this all works, but I'm just a baby beginner just starting to figure it out.

I'm not proposing anyone take fish oil, that's for sure, but there are marine sources that contain the long-chain omega 3's, and that is the phytoplankton, the original source from which the fish get it to begin with.

Hi marsh!

Dr. Dave sells fish oil ($63.00 for a month's supply). Sometimes people who sell stuff are not the best authority on foods that might take the place of the products they are selling.

Can you give us a link to the "new and more recent evidence"? Is there a source in addition to Dr. Dave?

I think I'd have to see evidence that the familiar vegan sources are suddenly not adequate. Everything I've read so far says they are. That includes my biochemistry textbook (Basic Medical Biochemistry, A Clinical Approach, Third Edition; Marks, MD) and Becoming Raw, by Vesanto Melina, RD.

If there's evidence more recent than 2010, then there hasn't even been time yet to substantiate that evidence! Usually, new information is never accepted as "fact" until it's been verified by unbiased and credible research results from several sources. Given the number of studies so far that have concluded that the familiar vegan fats are adequate, any new evidence to the contrary would have to be accompanied by an explanation for why all previous study results were not accurate; and it seems like these new findings would be HUGE NEWS!

For myself, I'll continue with the known vegan omega food sources (including phytoplankton) until there's some agreement among credible authorities that any of those sources are no longer adequate.

Sorry to be so skeptical, but I just don't think it's something to worry about - past getting the good vegan nutrition we need of course!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2011 06:31PM by suncloud.

oh suncloud, it's so good to be skeptical!

I know that guys sells fish oil, and he does because he's convinced that plant sources are not sufficient. I've read several articles online recently, I'll have to try and find them again to pass along here. I know one was written by Joel Furman, a vegan who does not sell not support nor sell fish oil.

I listened to a talk by Waynarowski a couple of days ago, and that's what got me thinking. You can try this link, I'm not sure if it will work... this is the talk I listened to:

[www.thebestdayever.com]

If you're taking phytoplankton, I think your're getting the perfect balance of omegas. I'm not going to rely on the other plant-based short chain omega 3's and my body's ability to convert. I'm getting some phytoplankton, it is such a really nutrient-dense superfood. I'm not into supplementing, I really prefer to get all of what I need from whole food sources. There is just no way that science will ever be able to identify every minute and subtle component in the foods we eat and nutrients contained, not to mention the not yet discovered supporting factors present in whole foods that help us utilize the known nutrients.

Also, I'm super skeptical, also, especially of all the literature that says raw vegan diets contain everything they need, and that we have it all figured out. We'll never have it all figured out! Life is ever-changing and ever-evolving. And... these days, will all of the toxic stuff in our environment, soil depletion, radiation and god-knows-what else, information must evolve as well.

Back to converting omega 3's, maybe our environment is changing, maybe even our internal environment, making our ability to convert the long chain omega 3's from plants more difficult. This has already happened with B-12. Our bodies have evolved over the years and we have lost the ability to produce it in our guts, and so now we have to supplement.

So, it's good to be skeptical, and I will always want to try and keep an open mind to any new and cutting edge discoveries, even if they seem to contradict or challenge what was previously true.

Here's the article by Joel Fuhrman MD:

In it, he states:

In drawing blood levels of EPA and DHA in my patients, I find that a large percentage of individuals do not have optimal levels of DHA. I often see patients eating otherwise excellent diets with dry skin, seborrheic dermatitis and other signs of DHA deficiency.

[www.drfuhrman.com]

This link is actually an ad for the aglae based supplement he's selling. You may want to just dismiss his information because he is using it to promote his product, But for me, I think it just brings up a good point. Myabe plant-based omega 3's are not sufficient for everyone, as previously assumed.

I'm not trying to say that across the board, plant sources are not effective, I'm just saying that they can be, and that we might want to look at the idea more closely. Both these doctors, Waynarowski and Fuhrman, have run tests on people consuming plant-based diets, who are consuming thought to be adequate amounts of omega 3's, and they both discovered overwhelming percentages of people who are DHA deficient.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2011 08:36PM by marsh.

Appreciate your post marsh! I can see you may be as skeptical as I am. I agree it's a good thing.

Definitely, I don't think everything's been figured out, which is one reason I find the subject of nutrition so absolutely fascinating!

Algae supplements are something my body doesn't react well to, but I do think they're probably a good source for most people. Chia and seaweeds seem to be much better in my case.

Your link didn't work on my computer, but I found this link that looks like the same interview with Dr. Dave (by David Wolfe):

[www.thebestdayever.com]

According to the interview, Dr. Dave doesn't think any vegan source is a good source for omega-3, and that includes algae. In fact, according to Dr. Dave, the supplement he sells is the only really good source there is. Is he a fish oil salesman or is he really selling (ahem) snake oil?

Dr. Dave says his latest evidence comes from testing of conference attendees. That's not a study. We don't even know what those people ate! Who knows if they ate chia or algae or whatever, or how much? Self-reporting is not considered the highest form of information-gathering anyway, but what questions were asked?

My understanding is that Dr. Dave is correct about the body's needs for healthy fats to manufacture cell membranes, properly functioning mitochondria, and cellular chemical messengers. He may also be correct that many people benefit from the properties of omega 3 oils that contribute to making our cell membranes more flexible, resulting in less heart disease.

According to my biochemisty instructor, the types of fats people eat determine the flexibility of their cell membranes. My instructor said that people who eat lots of saturated fats (fats that are hard at room temperature) will have that same kind of fat in their cell membranes, and their cell membranes will be less flexible. He said people who eat more unsaturated fats (fats that are liquid at room temperature) will have more flexible cell membranes.

If that's true, I can see why meateaters would benefit so much from fish oil!

But even Dr. Dave mentioned that people following plant-based diets will have less risk of heart disease for many other reasons.

For whatever it's worth, the following is from a chart in "Becoming Raw" (Vesanto Melina, RD). The arrows indicate direction of the conversion pathway:

For Omega-3:
-Good vegan direct sources for Alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) are chia seeds, flaxseeds, echium oil, hempseeds, walnuts, greens. ->

-ALA (above) is converted to Stearidonic acid (SDA). Or you can get SDA directly from echium oil, hempseeds, blue-green algae. ->

-SDA (above) is converted to Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA). Or you can get EPA directly from Series 3 eicosanoids (PG3), including these sources: microalgae, fish, sea vegetables, breast milk. ->

-EPA (above) is converted to Docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Or you can get DHA directly from microalgae, fish, eggs, breast milk.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Whatever's going on inside our little bodies, you can be sure that all that fish oil on the market isn't helping any fish! I know you're not interested in purchasing the fish oil; but it might also be worthwhile looking into a more credible source for information than the guy that's making money off the suffering of innocent fish critters.

In my opinion, David Wolfe's participation in the interview doesn't make the information any more credible. David Wolfe sells powdered deer antlers that are literally "harvested" from the bloody heads of living deer. The "farmers" say it doesn't hurt (as if they'd know). I hope they're right; but even if they are, open wounds on the head can lead to infection and worse. It's not ethical, nor is it nonviolent in my opinion.

Hi marsh,

I just read your post about Dr. Fuhrman. I've read Dr. Fuhrman's book on fasting, and I trust him.

Suncloud-

I agree with pretty much everything you just said. The reason I even bring this up is because it might become something to consider that the conversion of short chain omegas (plant-based, ALA) to long chain omegas (DHA and EPA) might not be as easy as has been so widely accepted. The breakdown of the conversion you mention is what is supposed to happen, but sometimes it doesn't, and that is the point I am bringing up. That's why vegans are showing up deficient.

Sure, there are many flaws with Dr. Dave's talk when viewed from a scientific viewpoint, and you stated a lot of the flaws. But he brings up the point that there could be the possibility that many raw and cooked vegans may be deficient. That is worth considering, and as you can see, Joel Fuhrman is bringing up the same point.

And, I think that it doesn't matter what David Wolfe is selling, really. He's not perfect. He lives his life and makes his own choices. We all do. I don't have to buy the stuff I don't want or don't agree with.

Who knows. I just want to cover all bases, and try to get the EPA and DHA directly from plant foods, and not rely on conversion as much as possible now that I've been made aware of this, especially since I'm in a somewhat compromised position of re-building my health. For you, 25 years is a long time on this path. I have great faith that what you are doing is working for you, and serving you well, otherwise you never would have made it this far. Right?

Marsh, yes, sorry. I get carried away sometimes! Definitely, I think algae is a good product. I just don't like the whole idea of fish oil, and it gets me riled up I guess.

I'm kind of thinking that if vegans are low on Omega-3, maybe it has more to do with our not paying attention to it, rather than not being able to convert. But that's just a guess.

Whatever the case, it's probably a lot easier for most people to take an algae supplement than to balance the omegas through nut/seed intake, so I think it's very good that you're bringing this up; and I sincerely appreciate your high level of tolerance with my ranting!

I wonder what the consequences are for vegans (raw or not) when they have too much Omega 6 compared to Omega 3? I know vegans have way lower rates of Ischemic heart disease, despite whatever their omega ratios are. I wonder if it's possible that the omega ratio isn't quite as important for vegans, since vegan membranes aren't stuck with lard.

Again, just a guess. We'll probably know a lot more in 30 or 40 years or so, when all of us vegans are running marathons in our 90s! Heh

(I want to let you know that even though 25 years is a long time, I'm still constantly challenged with food intolerances. I had an ameba that lived with me for probably at least a decade and maybe wiped out some enzymes. When I bring up my long-term rawness, it's not so much because I think I know a whole lot, but usually because I'm trying to convey the point that being overly restrictive on a raw food diet can be counter-productive, especially when it's followed by episodes of overeating. It's kind of my pet peeve.)

suncloud,

What you call ranting, I call super informative--rant on!

I agree. I didn't detect ranting at all. I think we've had a lively discussion that was really stimulating and enjoyable!

Suncloud,

From what I got out of the tiny bit I've read on the omega ratio, when the ratio is unbalanced in favor of omega 6, there is the potential for inflammation, the precusor to most modern diseases and aging.

Another interesting point I've learned, is that with the onset of farming in the past 100 years or so, we have gotten away from eating foods in their wild state that are naturally richer in omega 3's. Domestication somehow has altered that ratio. So not only vegans are out of whack, but the general population is as well. This is one of the reasons the whole idea/need for supplementing (especially fish oil for mainstream) has even come up. Interesting, huh?. So the more wild foods and wildcrafted herbs, the better.

Another little bit-

Apparently coconut oil can be of value as well in the production of EPA and DHA. Even though it contains only medium chain fatty acids, the body can utilize these to make the longer chain omega 3's. So, I guess, just keep a varied and healthy source of good fats in the diet, and that will help a lot.

I dont know much about this topic, so I find it very interesting. I have a kind of dumb question:

Is it possible that people each have different DHA and EPA requirements?

I don't think that's a dumb question at all

Actually, I would imagine that there must be some variance, we are all different, with different needs and different life styles. Also, I'm sure there probably are standards that would be used to be able to even analyze and determine adequate levels in people.

The whole thing is new to me, too. I find it super interesting, and I'm still soaking in as much as I can get my hands on.

Well thanks Tamukha and marsh! (sometimes I look back on what I wrote and I just think sheesh!)

Coconana, I agree this is an interesting topic. Maybe someone else knows the answer to your question. I think it's a very good question.

Marsh, I hadn't heard about the connection you mentioned between omega imbalance and inflammation. I can see now that there's a lot of information on it.

Here's what I don't really get, and maybe you or someone else can help me with this:

If having higher Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio in the diet leads to inflammatory symptoms (arthritis, for instance), then wouldn't you expect that foods with a higher Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio would have a higher inflammation factor (on their nutrient chart)?

For some reason, that doesn't appear to be the case.

Bananas, for instance: One cup of mashed banana is considered "moderately inflammatory" with an inflammation factor of -115. (The more negative the score, the more inflammatory the food). I would expect then that the Omega balance would be pretty high in favor of Omega-6. But it's a ratio of just 1.66:1 (Omega-6:Omega-3).

Going in the other direction with anti-inflammatory foods, turmeric (the dried, ground spice), is considered "strongly anti-inflammatory" with an inflammation factor of 1523 (the more positive the score, the less inflammatory). So a person might conclude that the Omega balance would highly favor Omega-3. Not. There's about 3.5 X more Omega-6 than Omega-3.

The bananas have a lower Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio than the turmeric, but bananas are considerably more inflammatory.

One other comparison: Chia is rated "mildly anti-inflammatory" with an inflammation factor of 77. There's approximately 3 X more Omega-3 than Omega-6, so that would kind of make sense. But when you compare chia to peanuts, peanuts have an inflammation factor of 127 (meaning they're more anti-inflammatory than chia), but peanuts have an Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio of 5161.6:1!

So that's something I really don't get.

About coconut. From what I've looked at this morning, research is really piling up that coconut contains fats that have unique advantages for humans, including antiviral and antibacterial properties. Most sources say those oils don't convert to EPA or DHA, but I also read that "Coconut oil is rich in 'good' saturated fatty acids that conserve the elongated omega-3 fatty acid.(Shari Lieberman, Ph.D., C.N.S., F.A.C.N., et.al.)" Whatever that means. Sounds good though!

Great! My all-time absolute favorite drink is chia soaked in coco water!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2011 09:28PM by suncloud.

mmmmm... that drink sounds good....

You know, I really have no idea how to make sense of how that works. I guess it doesn't make sense when you take the omega ratio thing and apply it to individual foods. There is a lot of information out there, though, that an imbalance of the essential fatty acids in the body is a concern. A higher ratio of Omega 6, which is widespread, can lead to inflammation according to the research. And... inflammation, they are discovering, or hypothesizing, is the root cause of so many diseases- including cancer and things that you wouldn't really think have much to do with inflammation.

I'm sure the omega factor is just one piece of the puzzle, but it has really gotten my attention. I have always had an interest in health and nutrition, but now, since going raw, I am really motivated to learn and apply as much as I can.

Marsh, you said, "now, since going raw, I am really motivated to learn and apply as much as I can."

That's me too. Funny how it works that way for some people. Thanks for all the info!

haha.. isn't this an awesome journey

This is a good thread, some great information from suncloud and marsh.

I have been reading into this for the past few months alot myself and lots of the studies come to similar conclusions. So i have been playing about with a vegan supplement known as opti3 for the past month which contains microalgal oils.

Heres what it provides:

[www.opti3omega.com]

I have noticed that my skin is a little more smooth than usual. I think i will probably try to get it instock shortly. I will update if i do.

[www.amlaberry.co.uk]

One word: Purslane.

From wikipedia:

Purslane contains more omega-3 fatty acids (alpha-linolenic acid in particular[4]) than any other leafy vegetable plant. Simopoulos states that Purslane has 0.01 mg/g of eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA). This is an extraordinary amount of EPA for land-based vegetable sources. EPA is an Omega-3 fatty acid found mostly in fish, some algae, and flax seeds.[5] It also contains vitamins (mainly vitamin A, vitamin C, and some vitamin B and carotenoids), as well as dietary minerals, such as magnesium, calcium, potassium, and iron. Also present are two types of betalain alkaloid pigments, the reddish betacyanins (visible in the coloration of the stems) and the yellow betaxanthins (noticeable in the flowers and in the slight yellowish cast of the leaves). Both of these pigment types are potent antioxidants and have been found to have antimutagenic properties in laboratory studies.

I just ordered some marine phytoplankton which is an extraordinary 10% EPA by dry matter weight. That isn't a typo. 10% EPA. Amazing. I'm glad I found a whole food source that is so rich in this nutrient.