Number 1 kindly refrain from the knicknames. "Babe", "toots", seriously, "coco" will do.
Number 2 if you're paying attention you'll note that I actually like and admire her, as plainly stated in my posts in this thread. Nothing "mean girls" about it.
Number 3 if you don't want people to laugh, don't be funny. If you can't help it, don't get all pissy when others can't help but laugh. Ha.

So, in light of your recent dressing down of me for being "snarky," I can now assume that it's okay for me to be "snarky" as long as it's agreeable to your sense of humor? Have anymore insanely difficult puzzles that you'd like me to solve? Maybe you should create an online coco mood-o-meter that I can check every day before daring to come on here under the assumption that I'll get some conversation about, I don't know, raw foods?

LOL.

Why aim for snark on purpose eh? You seem to be effortlessly funny, just go with it.

coco Wrote:
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> LOL.
>
> Why aim for snark on purpose eh? You seem to be
> effortlessly funny, just go with it.

LOL @ the two of you...Sorry but it's strangely amusing...

Uh, I preface this by admitting that it is hard to convey tone on interweb posts, but this could reasonably be read humorously:

Quote

Wow. When she falls off the wagon she doesn't mess around

Are we henceforth to withhold amusement until we are informed whether levity was intended by the statement? Seriously? That's not how it works here, HeavenHands.

Shhhhh...that's what it's intended to be..."strangely amusing." Can you tell the buzz-kill in the bunk above me ^^^^^^ that someone has to pump some life into this morgue?

banana who Wrote:
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> coco Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > LOL.
> >
> > Why aim for snark on purpose eh? You seem to be
> > effortlessly funny, just go with it.
>
> LOL @ the two of you...Sorry but it's strangely
> amusing...

Tee hee...where's that rofl smilie when you need it?

Well, here's one thing I don't get. I know there's b12 in animal flesh (of course), but if a person has an absorption problem with b12, how will they absorb more b12 from eating meat than from taking supplements?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but my understanding is that, in fact, people with absorption problems can often absorb more b12 from supplements than from meat, because there's SO MUCH MORE b12 in supplements. B12 is a bacteria and doesn't require another nutrient from animal flesh to be absorbed, as far as I know.

If I missed some information to the contrary, please let me know - anyone.

Is it possible that Natasha was misinformed by her physician?

Suncloud, I don't know the answer to this. I respond much better to iron supplements than eating a meat heavy diet. Being chronically low I've tried lots of things to get my iron up with limited success. Yes, I know it's due to absorption and I have done things to address that too but again, limited success. I take a raw food based supplement, 3 months on, 1 month off, and that works for me. For others eating lots of red meat solves iron issues, I guess everyone is different.
As for B12, isn't it possible that a food source is easier for some people to process? I have read negative things about injections, perhaps they just don't work for some. It does sound like she tried hard to find a solution before changing her diet but it wasn't working for her and her deficiency had reached a dangerous stage. She looked and sounded seriously afraid in one video I watched of her, they were telling her she might have done permanent damage. I don't know what I'd do in that situation, I just can't judge her for her choices.

Thanks for your response coco. Probably different people are different for different nutrients, and I'm glad you're taking an iron supplement if that's what works best for you!

I've just never heard of anyone who has a b12 absorption problem being able to absorb more b12 from eating meat than from a supplement. Or put another way, I've never heard of eating meat as being a solution to a b12 absorption problem. Many older meat-eaters have b12 absorption problems.

But if it's possible to overcome a b12 absorption problem by eating meat, I would REALLY like to know; and I would also like to know the biochemical reason for it.

Here is an excerpt from an article by Virginia Messina, RD (registered dietitian). Virginia is a vegan herself and an actual bonafide expert on vegan diet. The article addresses statements from Tasha "The Voracious Vegan", who also went back to eating meat. From Virginia:

"...as far as B12 is concerned and for those who have severe iron deficiency anemia, supplements are way better than whole foods. And because the body has to work harder to digest and absorb B12 from animal foods, the B12 in pills and fortified foods is actually much more easily absorbed. (There could be other reasons why Tasha wasn’t getting adequate B12 from her supplements; maybe she wasn’t chewing them or was taking doses that were too small or she had pernicious anemia. None would be a reason to start eating meat.)"

The entire article is worth a read.

[www.theveganrd.com]

This is so contrary to what I generally believe to be the healthiest way, to turn to supplements instead of whole foods. I agree that iron concentrates (raw plant based whole food) do work best for me but it's a bit of a mind screw, if you know what I mean.

Well coco, I think I understand your sentiments. It can be a "mind screw"!

Regarding B12, supplementing is the only way to have a reliable source if a person is vegan. Even the nutritional yeast only has B12 if it's enriched from another source, so eating it is the same as taking a supplement. Of course, if a person is eating meat, there's no reason to take a B12 supplement as long as they have healthy absorption.

If they don't have healthy absorption, then according to Virginia Messina (who really knows her stuff and in fact helped write the ADA Position Paper on Vegetarian/Vegan Diets), supplements are much more effective than meat in cases of B12 malabsorption.

Regarding other supplements, it's probably a good idea to take a Vitamin D supplement if a person isn't getting sufficient sunlight, but that's true for both vegans and meateaters.

And there are probably other situations too for certain individuals like yourself, where some supplements may be a good idea.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 03:37AM by suncloud.

Oh, we take D3 up here in the great white north for sure! I get ridiculously depressed if I don't. B12 too, every day.

Very good coco. I've always thought you were wise beyond your years!

suncloud, actually b12 comes from bacteria, even the b12 in animal products come from bacteria. But I suspect that people whose health degrades without meat may not have to be with b12, but perhaps from the adaptations the body has made over the lifetime of the individual to absorb various nutrients from meat, while not being able to get or to convert those nutrients as a healthy body would be able to do.

A healthy body can covert the essential amino acids into all the amino acids the body needs, but an unhealthy body may not be able to do this conversion. A healthy body can covert the essential fatty acids into more complex necessary fatty acids, but an unhealthy body may not be able to make these conversion. So for some individuals, they may need to get more complex amino acids or fatty acids from the diet, specifically from animal products.

Prana, just for the record, I did mention (in my first post on this thread) that B12 is a bacteria. However, you are definitely more accurate in saying that B12 "comes from" bacteria, since B12 is synthesized from bacteria. It's not bacteria itself. (Sorry! Also, I apologize for saying "bacteria", instead of "bacterium", which is the singular form. Just noticed that!). Thanks Prana.

In your second paragraph, I think I understand your point, and it's an interesting one. But are you saying that some people have to eat animal products because they cannot synthesize certain amino acids and/or fatty acids?

For amino acids, as far as I'm aware, all of the 20 common amino acids (including both essential and nonessential amino acids) are available from plant foods.

For the benefit of those who don't know, essential amino acids are those that the body cannot synthesize and must come from diet. Nonessential amino acids can be synthesized from the essential amino acids in the diet. We eat both, and they are all available from plant foods, though each plant food supplies a different array of AA.

Since all of the protein we eat - from both meat products and plants - has to be broken down into amino acids before we can use it for anything (including making it into more complex molecules), if a person has lost the capability of making those more complex molecules, they wouldn't be able to do that no matter where the amino acids came from.

But if you disagree Prana, could you give us the name of any amino acids that are not available from plant foods? Thanks.

As for fatty acids, I haven't heard of a condition where people have to eat animal products to have a good supply of fatty acids, but of course many people don't get a correct fatty acid balance from their vegan diet, which I assumed could be corrected through better management of their vegan diet. If you disagree Prana, a valid reference would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Hi Prana.

To add to my response (above), here's a good article on amino acids. Amino acids do exist that aren't included with the 20 common essential and nonessential amino acids. In the article, the additional amino acids are called "less common amino acids".

[www.raysahelian.com]

I've checked a few of them and they seem to be available from plants. Carnosine for example can come from watermelon, and GABA can come from wheat bran. But if there are others that can only be obtained from eating meat (when we can't synthesize them ourselves due to ill health), which ones are they?

Thanks.

(Whatever the case, I believe all the amino acids are available as supplements, and if I absolutely had to, I would prefer to take them in that form than to eat another animal).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 08:12AM by suncloud.

suncloud Wrote:
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> Very good coco. I've always thought you were wise
> beyond your years!


*snort* I turned 40 on the 8th but thanks for making me feel young and smart . LOL, these days I feel like an old lady.

Thanks for the link on aminos, I've read quite a bit about plant sources but can always do with more info. This is the ONE area that people seem to focus on more than any other, "but where do you get your protein". sigh.

I think the problem with some conditionally essential amino acids such as taurine with being vegan is that often many of the amino acids which are used to synthesize these conditionally essential amino acids can also be low in some individuals vegan diets.

People just generally look at the protein content of a food and assume that they are fine i.e a banana has 1g of protein roughly, so 50 bananas and you'd be set for the day if you were 50kg in weight. But it is also about the quality of protein i.e the individual foods amino acid profile which is why it is best to consume a variety of different foods so that you can getting a scope of different amino acids in various levels, rather than just sticking to one or two food groups for the day.

Long term i would say that it would likely cause issue, which is why many restrictive diets don't do well long term.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 02:56PM by powerlifer.

Powerlifer, my understanding is that neither taurine nor any other amino acid has been shown to be a problem for vegans, either long-term or short.

Both carnivore and vegan diets can be overly restrictive, which can cause problems for either in the long term.

Sorry coco! I guess the years go by! I always think of you as the very young mother with the little bitty kids! How silly!

Well, then. I still think you're wise though. And since we're all going to live till 120, we're all still just babies!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 04:34PM by suncloud.

Taurine is really only a problem with vegans in those who have a condition to need it. In most cases you get by but for example if you didn't feed a growing child a source of taurine there would be issues, again this mostly isn't an issue because breast milk is a good source of taurine or formula's are enriched. But those trying out raw vegan diets and no breastmilk etc on their child then there would be a condition and problems as a result.

I done abit of research a while ago but its so distant now that i can't remember but alot of the research pointed to the fact that many vegans were intaking low amounts of the amino acids needed to synthesize taurine. There is even some research to suggest humans in general may relatively have limited ability to synthesize taurine and rely on dietary taurine sources when needed.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

There is good info on this in Prescription for Nutritional healing.

The thing about Taurine is that in order for the body to build it one needs to be eating some source of Cysteine as well as Methionine, the food sources of which are off the list for many raw vegans. These food sources include
For Cysteine: red peppers, garlic, onions, broccoli, brussels sprout, oats, granola, wheat germ, sprouted lentils
For Methionine: sesame seeds, Brazil nuts, some other plant seeds; methionine is also found in cereal grains. Most fruits and vegetables contain very little of it. Most legumes are also low in methionine.

I imagine quite a few raw vegans are falling shy in this category, those who avoid brassicas, nightshades, the so-called stimulating foods, herbs, nuts, grains and legumes. The food sources are quite limited as well and who is eating sufficient quantities of those specific things daily? I researched this when deciding what to feed my kids, it's ok to make a mistake with myself but not so much with them...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/2012 04:56PM by coco.

The Prescription for Nutritional healing is quite a good book, although lacks in some areas and could do with abit of an updating.

But yeah you are right coco, thanks for posting that list up.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

I am on a very similar diet that she proposes. I combine '80-10-10' and 'Aquatic Ape' theory. Works for me.