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Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 06, 2012 04:27PM

Loads of people seem to be doing the liver flushs as part of their new year detoxification program, so i thought i would do a little post on them.

[vegankingdom.co.uk]

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: Ifeelgood ()
Date: January 08, 2012 10:03AM

I read the article and the author says that a high fiber diet will help the gallbladder. I don't understand how that could be when the fiber doesn't even reach the gallbladder?

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 08, 2012 10:25AM

Fiber plays an overall role in digestion but goes further than just helping peristalsis. One of the key roles of fiber is in bile formation.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: Ifeelgood ()
Date: January 09, 2012 12:44AM

Thanks!

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: John Rose ()
Date: January 09, 2012 08:45AM

This is what Dr. Schulze has to say about this subject, "The following is my CLINICAL EXPERIENCE, not my OPINION, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE. I had hundreds and hundreds of patients walk into my clinic over the 20 years I practiced with gallbladder pain from gallstones, about 40% of them brought in their ultrasounds POSITIVELY SHOWING numerous, sometimes hundreds of gallstones and big masses of hardened cholesterol. I put all of these patients on liver and gallbladder flushes and liver and gallbladder cleansing herbs and my 5 Day Cleansing and Detoxification Program if not my Incurables Program. While doing these programs and my herbal formulae, my patients passed hundreds of black, red, purple and green rocks. After their treatment most of the 40% that had previous ultrasounds and many of those that didn't returned to their medical doctors for an ultrasound and I can say that over 90% of them were stone free. The remaining (less than 10%) had to do a little more work and were stone free in another month and a few more Liver Flushes later. THE PICTURES DON'T LIE! The MEDICAL DOCTORS agreed.

As I stated in the 2nd letter from Helen K. in Eugene, Oregon, I had many patients come see me in the middle of gallbladder ATTACKS, with stones stuck in the gallbladder and bile ducts and not a one of them ever had to have surgery after doing the liver and gallbladder flush and herbal treatment, NOT A ONE!

I have hundreds of natural and medical doctors following my programs, including the liver flush and all of their experiences have been the same as mine. One such medical doctor that follows my work, has personally trained with me and has had much success with the liver flush is in your area. Dr. Roopa Chari, M.D.. Her clinic is The Chari Center Of Health Inc. in San Diego, California. The clinic telephone is (619) 275-8073 or go to www.charicenter.com If you have any doubts about this treatment, I would highly suggest that you see Dr. Chari for some expert advise."

In "The Sam Biser Save Your Life Herbal Video Collection User Manual", Sam Biser says, "One leading naturopathic doctor says the liver flush is dangerous. He is crazy and ignorant. Here's why...

Let me quote you what an ignorant natural healer is scaring people with, and then I will give you Richard Schulze's comments. Here is the doctors first statement...

"Many people tell tales of passing huge stones on the liver flush.
However, what they think are gallstones are actually a complex of
minerals, olive oil and lemon juice produced within the gastro-
intestinal tract."

Schulze: "This is true -- but only part of it. When you do a flush, you will see these stones that are clear to translucent-like green. These are soft and spongy. These are congealed olive oil that you consumed.

But what about the black ones? What about the red ones that have blood in them? What about the ones that are an inch and a half long and have a brown, hard crusty outside, and when we broke them open, they were black and purple inside. That's olive oil??? Impossible!

Obviously, from this guy's statement, I can say that he has never done, or done with anybody -- a liver flush."

Biser: Here is the man's next comment. It scared one of my readers...

"The olive oil liver flush is not a good idea for a couple of reasons. First of all, consuming a large quantity of any oil will result in contraction of the gallbladder. It is quite possible that violent contraction of the gallbladder would increase the likelihood of a stone blocking the bile duct. This is a very serious condition that often requires surgery to prevent death."

Now, comment on that one.

Schulze: "Why do we do the flush? It is to cause a contraction of the gallbladder, and purge out the contents.

I always tell people that the gallbladder is like the rectum of the liver. When we do a liver flush, it's like an enema. It flushes out whatever is in the gallbladder.

Notice how he says, "Quite Possible." This is his theory. I have done a liver flush on over 5,000 people and I've never had a person that got a gallstone stuck.

And what were his words again: "Quite possible." This is why I say an N.D. in this country nowadays, you might as well call them an M.D."

Biser: "But what about his comment that this could cause death?"

Schulze: "This man is absolutely insane. That is my opinion of him.

I have had patients who have come to me from the hospital with gallstones (ultrasound) in their gallbladder, and stones entering and stuck in the bile duct, causing them extreme pain where they were doubled over.

I have many cases like this, and the minute they do the liver flush, they notice relief."


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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 09, 2012 09:06AM

The problem is though with the large amount of oil and causing a contraction there is a possibility of true gallstones getting stuck in the bile duct. The bile ducts can only dilate so much even with the magnesium(epsom salt) and most real gallstones can be fairly large. It would be like trying to fit a large ball through a tiny hole, just not going to happen.

I have yet to see any clinical data that these "stones" that are coming out have been analysed and shown to be real stones. The few who have gone to the effort have shown them to be just a mixture of the ingredients i.e saponification.

How does Dr Schulze know its not his liver and gallbladder herbs which are helping, as most of these herbs are also bile stimulants. I don't even like to think why there is blood coming from these "stones" that are coming out, but it likely can't be good.

Basically there are better and safer options if you wish to "flush" the liver i.e with bitter and liver support herbs. Why risk using large amounts of oil/fat to cause the gallbladder to contract when you can use safe proven herbs and spices which stimulate bile flow and gallbladder function.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 09:09AM by powerlifer.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: Prana ()
Date: January 09, 2012 10:48AM

powerlifer, I find it refreshing to be in agreement with you on this topic of the gallbladder/liver flushes that people do with the massive amounts (like 1 cup) of oil.


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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: John Rose ()
Date: January 09, 2012 12:15PM

<<<The problem is though with the large amount of oil and causing a contraction there is a possibility of true gallstones getting stuck in the bile duct. The bile ducts can only dilate so much even with the magnesium(epsom salt) and most real gallstones can be fairly large. It would be like trying to fit a large ball through a tiny hole, just not going to happen.>>>

Most of the Liver & Gallbladder Flushing Protocols use large amounts of Apples or Apple Juice for 5 days prior to consuming a whopping 4 ounces of Oil Olive or 995 Calories of Fat. The Apples are high in Malic Acid and the Malic Acid softens and breaks up those “fairly large” Stones into smaller Stones. The Protocol that was used at the renowned Lahey Clinic in Boston, Massachusetts added Ortho-Phosphoric Acid to the Apple Juice and it works with the Malic Acid, which, once again, dissolves and softens gallstones in the gallbladder.

There is also an Amazonian Herb, Chanca Piedra that can break up the Stones in the Kidneys and the Gallbladder. Interestingly, most of the Western Herbs are used for the Liver…see The Way of Herbs below.


<<<I have yet to see any clinical data that these "stones" that are coming out have been analysed and shown to be real stones. The few who have gone to the effort have shown them to be just a mixture of the ingredients i.e saponification.>>>

Yes, it’s a shame that we don’t have more proof for things that work. Unfortunately, it takes a little bit of money to do these types of studies and there are not too many people who are willing to spend any money just so they can make less money, at least, not in this Sick Society.

In the meantime, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so who do we believe?

Aristotle said, “Believe only your own experience. There is no fact like a fact learned from your own life.”


<<<How does Dr Schulze know its not his liver and gallbladder herbs which are helping, as most of these herbs are also bile stimulants. I don't even like to think why there is blood coming from these "stones" that are coming out, but it likely can't be good.>>>

My guess would be that he based it on his Experience, "The following is my CLINICAL EXPERIENCE, not my OPINION, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE. …Notice how he says, "Quite Possible." (or in your words “there is a possibility of true gallstones getting stuck in the bile duct”) This is his theory. I have done a liver flush on over 5,000 people and I've never had a person that got a gallstone stuck.”


<<Basically there are better and safer options if you wish to "flush" the liver i.e with bitter and liver support herbs.>>>

Yes, Bitter stimulates the Flow of Bile in the Liver. Here is something that I’m sure you can appreciate. When I dissected Michael Tierra’s book, The Way of Herbs, several decades ago I made my own list of Herbs according to which Organs they were used for and 89 of the 149 or 59.73% of the Western Herbs were used for the Liver, which was #1. #2 was the Digestive System at 68 of 149 or 45.64%. Next the Lungs at 62 or 41.61%, the Spleen at 36 or 24.16%, the Kidneys at 34 or 22.82%, the Heart at 27 or 18.12%, the Nervous System at 15 or 10.07%, the Bladder at 11 or 7.38%, the Pancreas at 8 or 5.37%, the Gallbladder at 5 or 3.36%, and the Adrenals at 5 or 3.36%. I've never seen any Herb Books breakdown Herbs according to Organs, so I took it upon myself to do it. I thought that it was interesting that the top three were the Liver, the Digestive System, and the Lungs in that order with the Liver way out in front as #1.

According to Dr. Richard Schulze, “All of the liver herbs are very bitter. Just the bitter taste when we taste it in our mouth starts stimulating the liver and will absolutely excrete bile from the liver through the gallbladder. ...The bitter greens stimulate digestion. ...If we were to go out into woods and sample most of what grew, the predominate taste in Nature is bitter. And unfortunately, in the grocery stores the predominate taste is sweet and salty. ...So, we’re just not eating enough bitter.”


<<<Why risk using large amounts of oil/fat to cause the gallbladder to contract when you can use safe proven herbs and spices which stimulate bile flow and gallbladder function.>>>

3 Points:

Point #1

Herbs only increase the Flow of Bile and do not command the Gallbladder to empty out its entire contents as does 100 grams of Fat in the Olive Oil and the purpose of the Gallbladder Flush is to FLUSH out the Gallbladder, not just increase the Flow of Bile.

Point #2

Another part of most Protocols are Coffee Enemas and the Palmitates in the Coffee bind to the Toxins excreted in the Bile so they can be eliminated, whereas, those Toxins excreted by using Herbs mostly get reabsorbed.

According to Kathryn Alexander in the May-June, 2000 Gerson Healing Newsletter Vol. 15, No. 3, “Gerson knew that the coffee enema dilated the bile ducts and caused a flushing of toxic bile from the liver. (Drinking coffee constricts the bile ducts). He also knew that this was the most effective method for detoxification. Since Gerson's time various active ingredients in coffee have been identified and most interestingly, the palmitates present in coffee increase the binding of toxic elements by the bile 7-fold and this enzyme-enhancing ability in the liver and small intestine does not allow reabsorption of the toxic bile. Most cholerectic herbs do not ensure this complete removal of toxins but only an increase in bile flow."

Point #3

Consuming 4 oz. of Olive Oil (955 Calories) when the occasion arises is no different than doing an Enema when the occasion arises. There is a time and a place for certain Protocols, but all of these types of Protocols are Slippery Slopes because most of the people who use and promote them don’t address the Primary Causes and when the Primary Causes are removed, most if not all of our Warning Signs disappear without having to do anything else, like a Liver Gallbladder Flush.

So I agree that there are “better and safer options” because removing the Primary Causes is usually all it takes in most cases. But once again, there is a time and a place for certain Protocols with an understanding that they must only be done along with removing the Primary Causes and that they are also Slippery Slopes because they can take away the Pain or the Warning Sign or the Motivation that’s needed to Correct those Mistakes on a Permanent basis.

As a Wellness Consultant, most of my students don’t need to do anything extra other than chugalug some Pineapple Juice (with the core – see PS below), Chanca Piedra and maybe some Coffee Enemas because the Juice Feast that 99% of my students start with is usually all it takes to cleanse just about every cell in our body.

Once again, there is a time and a place for certain Protocols on a temporary basis, but they’re all Slippery Slopes in more ways than one. For example, many of these Protocols are providing our body with certain Level 2 Nutrients that need to be discontinued eventually so that our body does not atrophy and then, not be able to make that Nutrient on its own.

So there are at least 3 ways in which these types of Protocols can be Slippery Slopes.

1) They can take away the Pain or the Warning Sign or the Motivation that’s needed to Correct those Mistakes on a Permanent basis.
2) Most of the people who use and promote these Protocols don’t address the Primary Causes.
3) Some of these Protocols are providing our body with certain Level 2 Nutrients that need to be discontinued eventually so that our body does not atrophy and then, not be able to make that Nutrient on its own.

Peace and Love……..John

PS Here is an old post from this message board a few years back…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Dr Flora
Author: bliss (---.isp.broadviewnet.net)
Date: 02-12-05 08:25

I wanted to thank you AGAIN for your invaluable advice, most notably all of your comments about pineapple juice. I can honestly say that after drinking it several times a week for a few months, all of my gallbladder problems are gone. I couldn't eat avocados or nuts before, because I would get uncomfortable aches and twinges, and once had a full-blown attack. I was getting to the point where I couldn't even have Energy Soup or a nice molested kale salad - the avos would trigger some kind of attack. And I've done a whole slew of liver flushes too, and they didn't help as much as just drinking fresh, ripe pineapple juice did. I love it so much - what a treat - now that's some delicious medicine! I'm going to continue to drink it a few times a week forever and ever.

I can't thank you enough for sharing your generous wisdom.

Bless,
Bliss
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]


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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: HeavenHands ()
Date: January 09, 2012 12:20PM

Wasn't it Jubb who popularized the saponified stones myth? Look forward to your article on herbs that support liver function.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: Anonymous User ()
Date: January 09, 2012 12:21PM

John Rose I appreciate you so much even if I have a different opinion about whatever is being discussed. Your contributions to this forum over the years have always been a pleasure to read. You are a wonderful person. I'm not convinced I could ever do this sort of liver flush myself (I like the bitter greens and herbs myself) but thanks for your time and effort, I read every word.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: John Rose ()
Date: January 09, 2012 12:32PM

Hi coco,

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, being appreciated means more to me than anything else, so thanks for your kind words.

Love and Hugs……..John


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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 09, 2012 12:47PM

Bitters also provide a flushing action to both the liver and gallbladder which is how it achieves its benefits of removing fat and other stored toxins, aswell as stimulating bile flow as mentioned. Which is why bitters are often indicated for pretty much everything the liver flush is supposed to do only safer and proven in studies.

A small amount of oil can be helpful in preventing the bile from stagnating but i still wouldn't recommend the large amounts that are recommended especially in those with existing liver or gallbladder disease/stones. The potential risks with simply no research whether peer reviewed or not to back up its benefits is simply not worth it when they are safer alternatives such as bitter herbs and other other choleretic/liver stimulant herbs. All bitters stimulate the liver but only if they come in contact with the back of the tongue(bitter receptors) and stimulate the vagus nerve.

There are so many great liver herbs in general all with their own unique properties such as milk thistles and speeding up the regeneration of liver cells, all again which are well studied to want to consider using a potentially dangerous unproven alternative especially when the logic also doesn't add up, the bile ducts would only dilate a few mm tops and these "stones" that are coming out are much bigger. Especially because although there are those with beneficial anecdotes, there are also a large amount of people who have had bad side effects from it and some even having there gallbladder removed.

Im not sure HH i only came across Jubb via this forum a few months ago, but if anyone has any links i wouldn't mind reading them to see if he agrees.

Enjoyed reading your posts none the less John Rose even if we don't agree smiling smiley. Coffee enemas are also not my favorite due to their stimulative nature and their effects on the adrenal glands. CNS Stimulants in general, aswell as stimulant laxative herbs.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 01:01PM by powerlifer.

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Detoxing and the Flagging Liver...
Posted by: John Rose ()
Date: January 09, 2012 01:10PM

For those who like to learn a little more about the Liver, here is the entire article by Kathryn Alexander from the Gerson Institute that I mentioned in my post above…

Detoxing and the Flagging Liver
(part 2 of 3)
(From Gerson Healing Newsletter Vol. 15, No. 3, May-June, 2000)
by Kathryn Alexander
[This is Part 2 of a 3 part series of articles by Ms. Alexander]
I've come to the conclusion that nowadays treatment follows the premise "the more that is wrong with you, the more you put in." Many clients come with bags full of nutritional supplements, homeopathic remedies and herbal preparations and have been following a diet that I couldn't fault on a scientific nutritional basis and yet they have seen no significant impact on health or real reversal of their condition. Why? - they ask. The answer is simple - if you don't address the toxicity then you can expect no long-term results. In fact, with de-toxification - the more that is wrong with you, the less you put in.
There are three questions that need to be answered: how great is the toxic load, how well can it be eliminated and how fast can we safely do this? For although a person may come with specific problems in reality these only reflect varying degrees of toxicity. The more toxic, the lower the vitality and the more severe the illness. In any case history you see a gradual deterioration on all levels; the impairment of the digestive system which may have started with simple food intolerances leading to severe allergies and chemical sensitivities; the gradual impairment of the immune system giving rise to recurrent infection, candidiasis and later parasites; the gradual decline of thyroid activity (closely connected with immune function) where the slight drop in body temperature allows persistent activation of viruses including HIV; poor blood sugar control leading to addictions and later depression and last, but not least, the general decline in fertility.
So how do we handle toxicity and remove it? Detoxification involves firstly getting the tissues to release toxicity and secondly, ensuring its elimination to the outside. The second part of the equation is the most important of all, for you may be unleashing years of accumulated toxins that have been "safely" tucked away (albeit lowering the vitality of the tissues) into the blood stream at one go. This can be a greater toxic insult to the tissues and organs than the small doses received on a daily basis leaving the body in a more weakened condition than before. Unfortunately this is the first mistake that people make. They feel that the greater the toxicity, the more aggressive the treatment should be. The strongest impetus is fasting, next is fruit juice fasting, then fruit and vegetable juices, then just vegetable juices. Next comes foods - first fruits, then vegetables, first raw and then cooked. A recent case I had provides a fine example of the famous saying by the late Dr. Christopher who said "Fasting is like fire - it can either gently warm you or it can kill you."
A 47 year old man suffering with chronic fatigue over the last four years sold his 1business and decided to take a six week holiday and go on a water fast. His previous history showed that he suffered tonsillitis as a child, later developed food intolerances, hay fever, and recently had gallstones. There was a very strong family history of heart conditions and cancer. Almost immediately following the fast the man was diagnosed with bacterial endocarditis, which carries 30% mortality. He underwent treatment but is left with a permanently compromised heart valve where he may require a valve replacement within the next 2 years.
When we unlock such poisons in our system unless we ensure their removal to the outside they will damage the body and leave it vulnerable to infection. We assume that the body detoxifies as it goes along- including toxins from drugs. Yet it becomes apparent, for example, when a patient who has undergone chemotherapy starts to detox that the bone marrow may become depressed in the initial stages as the chemotherapy residue is shifted into the circulation: thus the patient effectively gets a second dose. If this is managed properly no ill effects occur. It is obvious from the case history of the example above that this man was not able to complete the second stage of the equation - elimination to the outside because his liver, a major route of detoxification, was blocked (gall stones).
The more toxic we become, the more "stuck" we are and the treatment must be more carefully managed. The liver is like an exit from a congested freeway. If the exit is blocked, the traffic will jam. If we then decide to send in a bulldozer to shift the traffic you will have a pile up. This is exactly what happens when you detoxify too aggressively without ensuring that the liver can cope with the amount of toxicity released. The liver is like a filter, which can clog and become weakened. This is especially true if you have suffered from glandular fever, Ross River Fever, hepatitis, digestive problems and gallstones.
We need to support the liver in its task of detoxification and there are various ways to do this. You can take specific herbs, which promote the production and flow of bile by the liver (major route of detoxification of drugs and chemicals), but this may not be totally efficient as a good proportion of the toxic bile is reabsorbed from the gastro-intestinal tract. Or there's the coffee enema! Gerson's genius lay in the fact that he recognized the dangers of toxic release into the system and he found a way to deal with it. He was working against time with many of his terminally ill patients and it was vital that he secured maximum detoxification right from the beginning. Gerson found that if he matched the rate of elimination of toxicity from the tissues with its rate of removal to the outside then over a period of time total healing occurred. It was the coffee enema that made this possible.
Gerson knew that the coffee enema dilated the bile ducts and caused a flushing of toxic bile from the liver. (Drinking coffee constricts the bile ducts). He also knew that this was the most effective method for detoxification. Since Gerson's time various active ingredients in coffee have been identified and most interestingly, the palmitates present in coffee increase the binding of toxic elements by the bile 7-fold and this enzyme-enhancing ability in the liver and small intestine does not allow reabsorption of the toxic bile. Most cholerectic herbs do not ensure this complete removal of toxins but only an increase in bile flow.
In order to assist detoxification I often recommend the coffee enema. They guard against a toxic build-up that can make you feel so dreadful and in this way help the body to heal. It is important to remember that the coffee enemas go hand-in-hand with the juices: no enemas - no juices and no juices - no enemas. The juices will remove toxicity from the tissues and the coffee enema ensures its removal to the outside. If used without the juices they will ultimately have a depleting effect on nutrients. The rule of thumb is - 3 juices (3 x 250mls) per coffee enema. If you increase the juices then you can safely increase the enemas.
About the author
Kathryn Alexander, a dietary therapist, is author of the book "Get a Life: the detoxification diet made easy!" ISBN 0-646-31829-2. You may order this through her web site at: www.getalife.on.net. Kathryn has a practice in Australia and holds regular workshops and lectures on the topic of detoxification. She also runs courses for students and practitioners of natural therapies. Kathryn has completed phases I and II of the Gerson Practitioner training, and she is currently fulfilling her Phase III requirements. She is also a member of the Gerson Institute's board of directors.
[www.gerson.org]

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: HeavenHands ()
Date: January 09, 2012 01:40PM

PL-

I seem to remember reading about Jubb and the fake stones in Frederic Patenaude's "Raw Food Controversies." Just went to look it up but my Kindle battery is dead and the charger is nowhere to be found. Typical. I see that Dragon Herbs' liver formula looks like a combo of some of the "superstars" of Chinese herbalism (plus polyrhachis). Good news for me minus the polyrhachis. Besides milk thistle, have you looked at bidens pilosa, b. chilensis, scutellaria rivularis, and pueraria lobata? I've found studies confirming their hepatoprotective effectiveness but nothing about side effects. I've been working with a friend who has cirrhosis and am looking for the right (gentle) herbal support for him.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: January 09, 2012 04:30PM

John Rose,

Thanks so much for your contributions to this thread, making it one of the most comprehensive and interesting discussions of this topic I have ever read on these boards!

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 09, 2012 04:49PM

Nice one, let me know if you find out HH. I feel for liver and gallbladder herbs in most cases if you are wanting the cleansing/flushing properties then to consume it as a powder so that it comes in contact with the bitter receptors on the back of the tongue, something to bear in mind if anyone is using capsules.

I know of those herbs such as kudzu but prefer other choices in most cases due to easier availability and/or more studied. Milk thistle is obviously good for helping speed up the regeneration of liver cells. With cirrhosis you want to break down the scar tissue/fibrin and this can be done with Proteolytic enzymes and red sage root.

I still feel its unproven and often dangerous alternative therapies such as liver flushing which draw a negative light to the world of natural health and herbology in particular which do have studies and research to back up their efficiency.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 04:52PM by powerlifer.

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Insights from a Liver Flush Guru...
Posted by: John Rose ()
Date: January 09, 2012 05:13PM

Here are some more posts from this message board that I thought were quite insightful…

Insights from a Liver Flush Guru...
Author: Tony (---.oc.oc.cox.net)
Date: 05-06-04 21:04

The following response is from Andreas Moritz, author of the "Amazing Liver Cleanse" to someone from Curezone regarding liver flushing. He has spent many years working with people and studying the liver. His website is www.ener-chi.com and here are his comments:

"In my new edition of the liver cleanse book (it is about three times as large) I also recommend Gold Coin Grass for difficult cases. It is also important to do the colonics, particularly the one after the liver cleanse. I have had quite a few people pass more stones with the colonic than during the actual liver flush. This was due to spastic areas in the colon that blocked the release of the stones. So make sure to always finish off with a colonic within 3 days after the liver cleanse. Almost every person passes more stones this way. There are always a few stones that get trapped in the colon, even in healthy colons. I will answer your questions in the sequence you have asked them:

1. Unless your liver and gallbladder are completely clean, old symptoms can return, not all of them and not as intense, but they can return. During a liver cleanse the liver can get rid of only those stones that are closest to the two main bile ducts that exit the liver. This allows more bile flow for a couple of days (and relieve symtoms, improve energy levles) but as the bile flows better also more stones from the rear parts of the liver begin moving toward these two main ducts. This once again blocks the bile flow and causes the same or similar symptoms. However, the liver as such begins to improve and begin to repair those damaged areas where bile ducts had been blocked before. To permanently get rid of chronic problems, such as backaches, both organs must be cleared of all stones. My partner, for example, passed a 2 1/2 inch calcified gallstone from her gallbladder during her 9th cleanse, folowed by 100 smaller but equally calcified ones. Several hours later, all the pain in her body which she suffered from for 30 years vanished completely and never returned.

2. I recommend to leave at least two weeks between cleanses to allow a maximum number of stones from the rear of the liver to move foward and also give the liver enough time and energy for repairing the damaged sites before having another 'surgery.' It would be a waste to cleanse any earlier than that. Once a month would be ideal.

3. The oil and juice cannot turn into stones, the body cannot do that, not even a laboratory. Analysis of the stones shows that they consist of 90 percent cholesterol crystals. The cholesterol in olive is minimal and not sufficient to form any clumpts. Besides it is soluble cholesterol that is unable to coagulate. The reason why the the liver can easily accomodate 4000-5000 stones becauuse of the huge biliary network. Instead of having bile occupying the space, bile stones begin to occupy that space. Of course, the bile ducts dilate because the stones are relatively large in comparison with the normal diametre of a smaller bile duct. This causes the typical enlargement of the liver among people with chronic health problems. In fact most people, even children, in the industrialised world have enlarged livers (which is now considered normal). If a person has 20,000 stones, he actually has a fatty, enlarged liver, completely white on the ultrasound picture.

Also, when the liver and gallbladder are cleared of all stones, no more stones are released. If stones were formed from olive oil, this would continue to be the case even after the liver is clean. But this isn't so. After my 12th cleanse I had no more stones. When I did a 13th cleanse 4 years later, I still had no stones, not suprising given my diet and lifestyle. And I had released over 3,500. All stones were packed with bacteria that produced a horrendous smell. Olive oil is bacteria-static and therefore does not support living bacteria. Bacteria only go where there is decaying organic matter. Anyone who says that olive oil turns into stones has no knowlege of basic biochemistry and digestive functions.

4. The liver loses its sluggishness when it is free from congestion. It fully repairs itself and does not require any external help to do that. How to avoid gallstones from being formed again can be taken from this book. How to live a healthy lifestyle and eat balanced diet according to one's body type is dealt with in my book "The Key to Health and Rejuvenation." It is a very large and comprehensive book.

5. Fats make you sluggish for as long there is not suffucient bile available to handle the fat. Once the bile ducts are clear bile flow and bile production return to normal, fat digestion also becomes easy again, provided that all the other factors that influence bile production, such as sleeping before 10 or 10:30 pm, drinking aenough water, avoiding stimulants, etc., clearing emotional stress, etc. are taken care of."

Best of luck to everyone on this happy path to health!!
Tony
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not much changes IMO...
Author: Tony (---.oc.oc.cox.net)
Date: 05-07-04 00:14

<<<how does all this change with no Gall Bladder?>>>

...I have heard that it's still beneficial to do them because stones can be packed into the various ducts of the liver. You may want to do much smaller amounts of oil also in the beginning (ie 2-3 oz vs. 4-5). One important thing I heard Udo Erasmus say personally is that those with the GB's removed need to eat fats in a different manner. The GB was designed to release large amounts of bile in a short time as is needed to digest a fatty meal. On the other hand, without the GB, bile continually trickles down from the liver directly into the duodenum and so if you are going to eat fat you must eat very small amounts and spread out over time. Since he is probably the world's leading authority on fats I would trust him on this one.

One thing I think is very inspiring about this person is that he is fifty-two years old and reportedly exceptionally healthy and he's not even raw!! But he says some really cool things like we don't need concentrated protein sources, particularly once our liver gets clean--you can even synthesize much of the necessary protein out of the combination of air, water, sunshine, etc. Also, that the liver is very closely tied to the gateway from the physical body to the awareness/light-body and removing debris really helps to enhance that connection.

Anyway, best of luck to you...

Tony
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Insights from a Liver Flush Guru...
Author: michael UK(80.44.142.---)
Date: 05-07-04 08:09

I've done 12 cleanses and the first 10 produced many stones. The last one almost none at all which would suggest to me at least it's not the oil turning into stones.

mike xxxx
[www.rawfoodsupport.com]


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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: HeavenHands ()
Date: January 09, 2012 05:31PM

Thanks. It's funny because the first time I heard of kudzu was when I was looking to buy some land in the country. I'm a city boy and took a country boy with me to check out a plot. As we were driving up to it he saw a bunch of kudzu in a neighboring wooded area and told me that the stuff can comprehensively destroy a forest. Based on his reaction you would have thought that he had just seen the plague walk by. I'm guessing that this has a lot to do with its scarcity at least for wildcrafting.

Definitely looking forward to what you come up with for that next article. I'm trying to find a link between the constituents in "superstar" adaptogens and proven liver support. I was wondering if you're going to touch on that. I've been taking gynostemma, reishi, ho shou wu, rehmannia, schisandra, shatavari, etc. Adding in cordyceps this week. WOW. Clarity. Morning wood. Clipping nails once a week instead of once a month. Lucid dreams, and on and on...

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nice one, let me know if you find out HH. I feel
> for liver and gallbladder herbs in most cases if
> you are wanting the cleansing/flushing properties
> then to consume it as a powder so that it comes in
> contact with the bitter receptors on the back of
> the tongue, something to bear in mind if anyone is
> using capsules.
>
> I know of those herbs such as kudzu but prefer
> other choices in most cases due to easier
> availability and/or more studied. Milk thistle is
> obviously good for helping speed up the
> regeneration of liver cells. With cirrhosis you
> want to break down the scar tissue/fibrin and this
> can be done with Proteolytic enzymes and red sage
> root.
>
> I still feel its unproven and often dangerous
> alternative therapies such as liver flushing which
> draw a negative light to the world of natural
> health and herbology in particular which do have
> studies and research to back up their efficiency.
>
> [www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 05:32PM by HeavenHands.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 09, 2012 05:34PM

Agree with most of the points except for number 3. as we do know through the process of saponification that is how these "stones" are formed.

I also think that these people are forgetting how small bile ducts really are even with dilation from epsom salt, he says that they passed 2 1/2 inch stones, that just wouldn't be possible to fit through a 2-3 maximum duct.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 09, 2012 05:41PM

HeavenHands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks. It's funny because the first time I heard
> of kudzu was when I was looking to buy some land
> in the country. I'm a city boy and took a country
> boy with me to check out a plot. As we were
> driving up to it he saw a bunch of kudzu in a
> neighboring wooded area and told me that the stuff
> can comprehensively destroy a forest. Based on his
> reaction you would have thought that he had just
> seen the plague walk by. I'm guessing that this
> has a lot to do with its scarcity at least for
> wildcrafting.
>
> Definitely looking forward to what you come up
> with for that next article. I'm trying to find a
> link between the constituents in "superstar"
> adaptogens and proven liver support. I was
> wondering if you're going to touch on that. I've
> been taking gynostemma, reishi, ho shou wu,
> rehmannia, schisandra, shatavari, etc. Adding in
> cordyceps this week. WOW. Clarity. Morning wood.
> Clipping nails once a week instead of once a
> month. Lucid dreams, and on and on...
>

Thanks HHsmiling smiley, if you are meaning a link between active constituents of adaptogens and liver support herbs you probably won't find one as most of the benefits of these herbs come from their own unique alkaloids such as ginseng with the ginsenosides or jiaogulan with compounds very similar to ginsenosides in structure but are known as gypenosides. Although some of these herbs contain similar nutrients, phyto-nutrient flavonoids etc such as Reishi and schisandra for example contains polysaccharides which stimulate immune function, liver protection and thus derive similar benefits through the same compounds they share. If that is what you were meaning.

Cordyceps is one of my favorite medicinal mushrooms and it is very supportive to the adrenal glands which is where its natural energy and libido boost come from.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 05:50PM by powerlifer.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: Ifeelgood ()
Date: January 09, 2012 06:11PM

I love how liver flushes seem to lie in the realm of faith and faction because so much of it is hidden and open to speculation. I personally like them and notice a difference in the few days after doing them. There is more sensation, which I can only compare to the sensation you feel after a band aid has been removed, so I'm speculating that the cholesterol deposits (I won't call them stones or I'll have to prove to someone that they were stones) have been removed, thus exposing nerve endings that are uber sensitive for a few days, like skin after a band aid removal.

Anyone else notice this?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 06:14PM by Ifeelgood.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 09, 2012 06:20PM

Im not saying the liver flush's dont work don't get me wrong, im just saying that what comes out isn't true gallstones. The large amount oil will cause the gallbladder to contract and stimulate bile flow/prevent stagnation as mentioned but this comes with the risk of consuming a large amount of fat/oil and blocking a duct, especially in someone with existing liver or gallbladder disease.

I can only talk from my perspective and what has worked for my liver and gallbladder problems. Artichoke leaf is probably one of my favorite liver and bile stimulants, good bitter also. Even bitters and bile stimulants are contraindicated in individuals with certain liver and gallbladder disease/problems such as blocked ducts from tumors, cysts etc. Let alone consuming cups of oil.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2012 06:23PM by powerlifer.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: HeavenHands ()
Date: January 09, 2012 06:48PM

It's looking like red sage is reasonably gentle. I just went through the herbal monographs in "Adaptogens" by Winston and Maimes. They concentrate on about 20 herbs. It looks like a good bit of them are hepatoprotective. Would that also imply hepatic restorative? Or is it exclusively a term related to prevention instead of regeneration? It's my understanding that the cirrhotic liver can not regenerate itself. Or is that hype?

I can't wait to introduce the cordyceps. LOL. I figured out early on that going one at a time is probably the gentlest route. Nothing major happened, but my system in the early going had a brief yet intense wtf moment.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: HeavenHands ()
Date: January 09, 2012 07:18PM

Here ya go. This is the article that Patenaude referenced when debunking Jubb's claims about the olive oil flushes. [curezone.com]

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 10, 2012 05:29AM

Thanks for that HH seems they are in agreement that it is a myth.

Most of the adaptogens have hepatoprotective properties some also restorative such as schizandra and its ability to speed up regeneration of liver cells. Some adaptogens are also bitter i.e Jiaogulan so it would depend if you consumed as a powder in which case it would cleanse the liver also.

Many just getting into herbs will probably have heard about milk thistle and think that its a great herb for liver cleansing but the truth is that milk thistle is more for speeding up regeneration of liver cells and its hepatoprotective properties rather than cleansing. Although again milk thistle is a very mild bitter so if taken as a powder it would cleanse the liver also.

Bupleurum is a great liver herb which doesn't need to be taken as a bitter to cleanse the liver. Also hepatoprotective.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 10, 2012 08:29AM

Some of the ingredients in Dr Schulzes formulas are abit suspect also such as the Klamath Lake blue-green algae, anyone with clinical experience would avoid this one because of its toxic anatoxins and micro-cystins.

His intestinal formulas are based around strong stimulant laxative herbs which weaken bowel function even with short term use. Some other common problems with using stimulative laxative herbs include electrolyte imbalances and cramping. I suffered this a few years ago from a senna colon cleansing tea(kleri tea from colonix), the diarrhea it causes can lead to electrolyte imbalances like i say, which made my heart go out of rhythm so watch with these herbs. If you want a mild laxative and digestive cleansing herb which is non-addictive or bowel weakening then the ayurvedic formula triphala is a good choice.

Alot of focus on hot peppers and cayenne for circulation but these aren't all that great choices for strengthening or improving deep circulation. Also their use is contraindicated in many circulatory diseases. Some of his formulas are decent but they could be much better and updated, mixing tannin rich herbs is a basic formulating mistake due to their binding nature with other nutrients and compounds.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2012 08:33AM by powerlifer.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: Tamukha ()
Date: January 10, 2012 08:55AM

powerlifer, you rock!

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 10, 2012 09:04AM

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer, you rock!

Thanks Tamukha, its good to feel appreciated now and again. You rock yourselfsmiling smiley.

Cayenne is actually quite controversial also, especially as i regularly see it recommended for those who have had strokes or at risk of stroke. Might do an article soon if i get a little spare time.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2012 09:04AM by powerlifer.

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Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: HeavenHands ()
Date: January 10, 2012 10:26AM

Thank you. You're greatly appreciated.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Liver Flush Myths
Posted by: powerlifer ()
Date: January 10, 2012 11:56AM

Thanks guys, i never know whether to post up my blog posts but then i think ohh it may stop people making the same mistakes which kept me ill for near a decade so that usually convinces me otherwise lol.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

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