pborst Wrote:
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> sure you can. First, I don't take your facts as
> facts. Coco is a mother who lives with others the
> same way many vegans do. So how does she use them
> or does she use them? What about her husband,
> kids? Could the article have been bought during
> an earlier time? I have "legacy leather" that
> goes back to a time I didn't care as much. And I
> have unavoidable leather I bought because there
> was not compassionate alternative.
>
> People, glass houses, RP!

Paul, who appointed you Coco's defense attorney? I mean, I find it interesting that you seem so quick to think that I am dissing you and yet you bend over backwards to defend Coco. She's a big girl. I think she can defend herself. And glass houses? LOL! Yeah! Don't throw stones if YOU (the universal YOU) are doing the same thing. That was what I responded to--the intensity of the whole thing. Judging other people for not being good enough vegans/vegetarians isn't okay either, in my book. Maybe some people are making excuses and could do better. Sometimes I fall short of how I want to live but at least I am aware of it and I TRY.
>
> Paul

pborst Wrote:
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> > >
> > > I would never presume to speak for Coco.
>
> But you did.
> >
> >
> > I post on CK's forums and on gitmr, and i know
> > alot of users here are frequent visitors to
> those
> > two forums and vice versa. And i have
> registered
> > using the same username and i am aware that you
> > can check my ip and know that CK and myself are
> > two different users.
>
> having two different ips does not make you two
> different users. I would just say if you are
> somebody else giving you the benefit of the doubt,
> you are off to a rocky start, in my opinion. the
> timing is a little too convenient for me frankly.
>
>
>
> > I am sincere about everything i have said so
> far.
>
> Sincerity is in the eye of the beholder. I would
> respect your sincerity a lot more if you didn't
> become magically drawn to a controversial thread
> and proffer human supremacy. This forum has a lot
> to offer. And the timing and your decisions
> about where to post continue to make me doubt your
> sincerity. You want to make good. Go to the
> juicing forum and offer tips on blending and
> juicing or give a new recipe. It's not just your
> timing. It's your choice of subjects and topics.
> I don't care about your IP. It's conduct that
> separates trolls from bonafide contributers.
>
> > I just post to have fun and read what others
> have
> > to say because i am too new to raw food. I am
> just
> > experimenting and finding what best suits me.
>
> You just post to have "fun" even though your posts
> seem to make normative statements about long
> standing members. I don't think so. It's a horse
> that won't run. best.
> >
>
> > Are you fine with that, because if you re not,
> let
> > me know what other concerns you have so we can
> > discuss and clear all. I have no ill intentions
> > and i would like to be part of all the
> > communities, this one being one of them.
> >
> > I am thirsty for learning.
>
> I continue to doubt your sincerity. A better
> balance with other threads less controversial and
> some value added across a range of threads would
> assuage my doubts. But as of now, I retain them.


Paul, noted. I will work on proving to you that i am sincere about everything and you will get to know that as the time passes.

banana who Wrote:
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> Paul, who appointed you Coco's defense attorney?

I don't need your permission to take a position on any issue of my choosing. No appointment necessary. Coco and I agree and disagree on issues just as you and I do.

I
> mean, I find it interesting that you seem so quick
> to think that I am dissing you and yet you bend
> over backwards to defend Coco.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I asked a question about the "you" in your post. How that comes to be thought of as dissing looks more like your reading into it.


She's a big girl. I
> think she can defend herself. And glass houses?
> LOL! Yeah! Don't throw stones if YOU (the
> universal YOU) are doing the same thing. That
> was what I responded to--the intensity of the
> whole thing.

My complaint concerned the conduct of someone with a short history and low post count who incidentally came when CK departed. So, it's really not the same thing is it?

Judging other people for not being
> good enough vegans/vegetarians isn't okay either,
> in my book. Maybe some people are making excuses
> and could do better. Sometimes I fall short of how
> I want to live but at least I am aware of it and I
> TRY.

I don't believe I've done that on this thread. I have commented on what I believe the correct definition of vegan is on other threads as have others. There is a difference between making judgments and being judgmental. One is substance the other is tone. One is analytical the other is personal and argumentative.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
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> Just curious not trying to dig into someone
> private issues, but why do the "little one get
> very sick", is the rawness and veganism of their
> parents not working for them?
> They were started on the right path, not into SAD,
> chewing on organic raw veggies, drinking juices,
> smoothies.


An immature immune system, when encountering a foreign invader (bacteria, virus, etc) has the appropriate immune response aka the body experiences symptoms such as fever, vomiting, etc. These challenges to the immune system are what builds it up good and strong for life. There is no bullet proof vest against this natural process and neither should there be, without childhood illness one would not be able to withstand the pathogens one encounters throughout life. With a weak immune system (and this includes the young, immature, unchallenged immune system of children) these challenges can sometimes be overwhelming. If, for whatever reason, a child needs strong medicine, some of the strongest that we know are antibiotics. That's not a route I choose to take lightly as it interfers with many of the normal functions of the body. Instead I aim to use natural source medicines. For me this includes strong herbs and foods like Goldenseal, oil of oregano, garlic, ginger etc, the flavours of which are Very strong, much too strong for children.

BW "Judging other people for not being good enough vegans/vegetarians..." You misunderstand I think. What is being evaluated in this conversation is the idea that humans somehow deserve to benefit from the fruits of another creature's labour. It's the attitude, that sense of entitlement that I object to. Not the practice. What people eat, wear, choose to do in their lives isn't really subject to the judgement of anyone else. The thing that bothers me is hearing somebody justify it as though it isn't at the expense of the animal, it IS. Do it but OWN it, you know? Trying to pass it off as "not that bad" is dishonest at best.

Paul, when I read statements on this thread like:

"You don't get to take advantage of the enslavement of animals and call it something other than what it is. Be honest with yourself, people don't NEED to do it, they WANT and LIKE doing it. Call things by their real names, prettying it up with this talk of being noble, it's positively sickening to me. I am offended by it,"

along with several other very negative, over-the-top posts, I felt I had to remind Coco that her revulsion was quite fascinating to me, given the contents of her cupboard or fridge or wherever that horrific product resides (albeit for three years). I remember a similar frenzy when I dared to mention the h-word myself.

If we are trying to better ourselves, coming down hard on other people who don't pass the vegan purity test isn't quite the answer in my book. OMG, when I mentioned a certain raw guru and a product that was under investigation, I got all kinds of judgment for it! People were giving him the benefit of the doubt left and right, even though there were questionable issues surrounding the entry of the product in this country, how it was labeled, how much was charged versus its cost to make, etc. It was pushed by the guru HARD, which was one of the reasons I kept railing about him. But people rushed to defend him and you are rushing to defend Coco. I feel like you always seem to think I am insulting you somehow. And I wasn't saying that you were judging anyone for being a vegan; I was talking about anyone who does so.

Coco, thanks for clarifying. I hope you won't mind me for saying this but I think you are too demanding of yourself. I mean this in the best way possible. I know you are trying to do good things but on the other hand, you have to give yourself a break!

I made the mistake of preaching myself recently. I was in the health store and overheard a woman (in a fur coat ) talking about diamonds and the clerk mentioned the atrocities incurred in harvesting them and the fur coat lady said: "Well, you can't do everything." I butted in and said: "Well, you can do SOMETHING!" The fur coat lady continued to chat up the clerk and mentioned that it was just "business" and I (again, butting in) said: "But business is not GOD!" And the woman turned her back on me. I felt bad immediately because it was none of my damn business to chime in! Even if I was "right," I didn't win her over to my side. I was just full of hot air.

BW,

I guess it is hard to disagree with the general sentiment of bettering oneself. At the same time, one shouldn't have to make a choice between that and being skeptical or critical of language that one doesn't agree with.

I think that language changes freely and fluidly. But even with that, clarity is first casualty when it gets used too freely. We can discuss terms without personalities.

As to your feeling that I always feel you are insulting me, I acknowledge that you feel that and at the same that I don't feel that way about you. All the same, I will try to be more tactful and mindful when we discuss in the future. I've always enjoyed our talks. We both can be passionate about things we believe which I believe is a good thing. Best.

Paul

Thanks, Paul. The Internet is not the greatest for making ourselves clear sometimes and I admit to being blunt at times. People do mistake it for something negative and honest to God, it's not.

Ah, you guys are great.

BW I hardly ever talk to people in public, it's too easy to get riled up. This is a discussion forum though and considering what the forum is all about I do expect a higher standard (than fur wearing diamond mining business women, Yuck, I'd have had a hard times staying quiet there too).
I'm not that hard on myself, there are tons of things in my life I'm working on making better. I'm honest about where I'm at, call things what they are, but I don't give myself cr@p about not being "there" yet, you know? It's a journey, not a destination .