RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If vitamins were so needed why is that none of the
> raw food gurus mention them in their research and
> publication?
>
> Douglas Graham
> Brian Clement
> Gabriel Cousens
> Storm Talifero
> David Wolfe
>
> I am missing something?


Clement, Cousins and Wolfe all sell supplements, maybe Storm and DG do as well, I'm not familiar with them. Looks like you are missing something.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 12:22AM by coco.

I was talking about vitamins not supplements or are they the same?
Raw cacao or maca are supplements but not bottled vitamins
In vitamins we do not actually know the components, we just have to trust the manufacturer, it is not a food

You're kidding, right? You're just seeing how far you can take this for a lark, aren't you? Like a toddler incesantly asking "Why?" for 3 hours. Well, I can answer her, I can answer you too.

Cousins (see: supplements)
[www.treeoflife.nu]

Clements
[www.hippocratesstore.org]

Wolfe
[www.longevitywarehouse.com]


Anything you take in addition to food, anything that is used to supplement diet, anything that is taken therapeutically or medicinally falls under the category of "supplement". Dehydrated fruits, veggies, greens, seeds, concentrates, tinctures, etc, these are all supplements. Many of them are taken for their vitamin and mineral content. Wheatgrass juice taken therapeutically (ie in quantity) would qualify. Your maca or cacao are sometimes included in supplementary formulations, as are algae, grass juice powder, etc. When does maca cease being what you consider a supplement and become what you consider a vitamin? When it is mixed in unknown quantity with other substances you'd qualify as a supplement? Under that definition a salad with dressing has unknown quantities and is therefore no longer something of which the components are exactly known to you.
This is a strange criteria for qualifying what is ok and what is not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 01:53AM by coco.

Could you provide the vitamins or supplement page for Doug Graham?

I am doing very well without these supplements or vitamins or maybe I do not know I am not doing well.

If it does not have water it is not good enough.

OMG of course, it's April 1st, you're totally joking with this complete bullsh!t. Ha ha ha, April Fools!

You cannot find a vitamin page for Doug Graham because he is the real deal, the real raw food guru. It is not a joke. When you are eating high water content raw food, there is no need for vitamin supplement

Are we having fun yet?

Either way i am not going to stop taking my vitamin b12 supplement any time soon because some self appointed guru's think i should. Current research has shown that a significant portion of vegans are low in vitamin B12 that is enough for me to continue periodically cycling a vitamin B12 supplement.

Whether some guru thinks we can just breathe in vitamin B12 from the air or play with our dogs to meet our b12 needs is irrelevant to me. Neither statement is backed up by common sense, logic or science.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 09:51AM by powerlifer.

Some experienced raw foodists inject with B-12. Natural occurring B-12 comes from bacteria living on dirt containing Cobalt. It does not matter if the vegetables are raw if the soil does not contain Cobalt. No Cobalt no B12. If you grow your own vegetables try this product:

[www.amazon.com]

It contains Cobalt. I am using it in moderate amounts in wheatgrass and water Kefir.

Panchito,

How is that experiment going? Are you going to analyze the results?

If I were to choose between a raw tomato and some potent raw vitamins I will pick the tomato.
It seems like in the raw industry, the commercial minded guys know how to come with with some catch words to get money out of people.
There is no such thing as raw vitamins unless it refrigerated.
I am eating organic this, organic that, we were told on this forum, I guess it is not working, you need vitamins



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 02:00PM by madinah.

No one is forcing vitamins upon anyone, but there are some individuals who have increased needs for certain nutrients whether that be because they follow a plant based diet(vitamin D/B12), under stress(any number of additional nutrients can be beneficial replacing what is lost such as vitamin C, B, Zinc, Magnesium), possibly someone who has digestive disorders and thus impaired/lowered nutrient absorbtion, or someone with a genetic disorder such as pyroluria(B6/Zinc) and so on and so on.

Assuming everyone has a level of health where diet alone suffices is ignorant in my opinion.

Even the weather is a potential problem for some, not everyone lives in sunny Thailand or Austrailia, some of us live in cold countries with poor sunlight year round. Vitamin D deficiency is a widespread problem especially here in the UK with up to 3/4s of people thought to be low on vitamin D at some point in the year. Now should we not supplement out of pure dogma?

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 02:30PM by powerlifer.

Tamukha Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Panchito,
>
> How is that experiment going? Are you going to
> analyze the results?

Thanks for asking. I am not sure of what it does. All I can tell is my experience (no lab tests). I changed my mind and now I don't use juice on the Kefir. I add half a cup of organic sugar (fuel) to ~1 quart of spring water. I premix Azomite in spring water and add a little squirt to the Kefir. Once fermented, the sweetness is gone so I don't see a point of wasting good juice. It tastes like apple cider but I only drink a sip (they say Kefir is very potent). Azomite dissolves in water 100% (no little rocks floating). There are many Google references to Azomite being drink alone. For example this one says it cures seizures in babies

[www.coping-with-epilepsy.com]

As far as my current feelings, I feel great. I work out hard 6 times a week (swimming/walking). My muscles hurt but they recover by next day. I am loosing weight fast (was 210 now 173lbs) but that was what I was looking for. So if I am loosing weight and not feeling bad, something is working right! Kefir has many yeasts (50+?) and thousands of bacteria (air) I think.

So the rawness is not working for most. It cannot cure the problems we had.
Maybe SAD is not too bad.
When you are really raw healthy, you are resilient, stress cannot bothered you.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 02:40PM by madinah.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the rawness is not working for most. It cannot
> cure the problems we had.
> Maybe SAD is not too bad.
> When you are really raw healthy, you are
> resilient, stress cannot bothered you.

I didn't say it wasn't working for most, i just mean that raw food or healthy diet in general is not the cure all panacea that many make it out to be.

A healthy diet doesn't make you bullet proof, it is a good shield of course against a number of diseases but health relies on much more factors than diet alone.

What about people that encounter this lifestyle because they are already ill with MS or other degenerative diseases. Diet alone may not be enough for these people and various supplements have been proven to help. Like i say i mentioned numerous examples above, thinking we are all the same and diet is all we need is again a bit short-sighted.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 02:55PM by powerlifer.

Most on this forum have been raw for many years but it seems like the preexisting conditions are incurable, it seems like for a handful rawness works but for most vitamins and supplements are needed. So how are we to encourage SAD eaters to join us in this journey if it does not really work.
Norman Walker one of the early raw food pionner lived on raw juices and greens until he was 99 year old with some goat milk, no other supplements, vitamins, at this time we should do better than Walker but it seems like we are going backward.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 03:23PM by madinah.

I am not a 100% raw nor do i believe in being 100% raw so im probably the wrong person to ask madinah. But personally managed to cure conditions i was told would be incurable with a combination of healthy diet, herbs and various supplements to the point now where a healthy diet and exercise suffices for me no problem.

But there was a time when that wasn't the case. I still periodically take various herbs, medicinal mushrooms and other bits and pieces(b12/vegan D3 spray) whenever i feel like it. I don't see why not, i supplement my healthy diet with regular exercise and don't blow my any supplemental income i have on alcohol and crap like the majority of the population do. I would rather buy some tonic herbs and adaptogens, again i see no downside in this, they are proven and i know how to use them properly.

Any extra anti-cancer compounds and immune boosting, endocrine supporting supplements should be welcomed in my opinion.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 06:53PM by flipperjan.

Some people are so consumed by dogma that common sense escapes them.
Happy trails to you I say.
To the rest, bravo for keeping an open mind and not letting nonsense rule the day.
I'm going to continue doing what works best for me regardless of what others think should and should not be done. I encourage all to do the same.

I know some people on this forum have iron issues so I'd like your opinion please.

[www.vitacost.com]

The daily dose is quite low - much lower than the prescribed iron that I take at the moment - ferrous sulphate 200mg three times a day. I always forget to take these and really don't like having to take them all the time.

I wonder if these Garden of Life iron supplements would be any good. Why do they put so much other stuff in with the iron i wonder.

If you could link the supplement i could have a look at what the other ingredients are flipperjan ?.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

There is a simple explanation to all this dilemma. Pure veganism does not work at the current state of our evolution. Most cannot sythethise b12 own their own. Only few vegans are able to and those have no need for supplements, the rest cannot thrive on raw diet alone, they need extra help. And the Norman Walker of the world understoodd that half a century ago and they added goat milk to their diet. If you are not part of the selected few like Doug Graham, Storm, you need extra help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 07:42PM by madinah.

If anyone really believes that people are thriving off the minute amounts of B12 the gut naturally makes then i don't know what to say. These people are getting their B12 elsewhere in my opinion as the gut makes no where near enough to satisfy the bodies daily needs.

Anyone on an 100% vegan/plant based diet and not supplementing with B12 will run out at some point. That may be years for some as the liver can hold generous stores of vitamin B12 but at some point you will likely run out. By the time noticeable symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency occur you may have irreverisble nervous system damage.

Id strongly recommend people think seriously before being blindsighted by gurus, we have no idea what these people eat and consume behind closed doors. The most common cause of B12 deficiency on a vegan diet is due to lack of dietary intake. Breatharians also, i don't believe half of this stuff, it is little wonder from a far why people don't take the natural health movement seriously and crazy statements from gurus such as "we can breathe the air for vitamin B12" really doesn't help.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/02/2012 08:00PM by powerlifer.

flipperjan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know some people on this forum have iron issues
> so I'd like your opinion please.
>
Why do they put so much other
> stuff in with the iron i wonder.

What other stuff are you wondering about particularly?

They look fantastic. When I run out of the whole food iron supplements I'm currently taking I'll try these instead and go for an iron test to see how it's working. I cycle, 3 months taking iron, 1 month off. I can always feel when I start to get low.

madinah,

I'm not sure what your stance is anymore . . . are your recent posts above sarcastic? I am sorry if they aren't and I am just misreading them.

Norman Walker, much of whose work I regard highly, was not the last word on healthy diets; the work is ongoing. What is Prana always reminding us to do? Put it into personal context and tell us what is working for you, avoiding generalizations. I value others' individual experiences with this lifestyle, and hearing about their travails and successes. I balk at accepting opinions as though they are universal truths. That's dogmatically inflexible. Actually, it's even a bit cultish.

You asked,

Quote

So how are we to encourage SAD eaters to join us in this journey if it does not really work

Well, not by embellishing or exaggerating, for starters.

Tamukha
Powerlifer explains very clearly what the issue is: Pure vegans need to supplement.

Uh, no, this is not exclusive to 100% raw vegans. Soil depletion grows the food that non-raw and non-vegans eat. It even grows the food that is fed to the food that meat eaters eat.
No matter my diet, I will supplement what I believe to be missing, especially if I feel better when I do (case in point: iron, D3, B12).

all I know is EAT the FOOD AND EAT THE VITAMINS!!! POWER UP! unless you were born raw and have lived raw your whole life, you will probably never quite catch up.....therefore I think people don't realize how deficient they are. If you are showing any signs of aging, then guess what............

RAW vitamins are awesome.......not GOD.

THeSt0rm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hm well .. as far as nutrition goes a diet
> focusing on anything GREEN, some nuts and seeds
> and some fruit as carbs you'll get everything u
> need.

Yeah everything except vitamin D and B12.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

powerlifer the link is there on my post

Coco - the amount of iron is much lower than in my current supplement but maybe because these are raw and I will absorb them better - which I think is the problem at the moment.

Incidently I had low iron issues when I wasn't vegan ( although 15yrs ago when I had been100% vegan for 4 years my iron levels where superb - I know that because the drs flapped abit when I got pregnant and I was regularly tested - always came out with a smug grin) - now however i think it is my own absorbtion issues. I wish i had stayed vegan.

Actually Powerlifer - I don't think you need to supplement if you are a healthy 100% vegan as you can eat marmite for B12 etc ; which i know is a kind of supplementation just not in pill form. It's just being 100% raw that causes all the difficulties.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2012 08:55AM by flipperjan.