what do you think after reading this article ..

[fatgirlposing.blogspot.ca]

Vegans.. I need to talk to you..
I don't talk about being vegan on here.. there's nothing to talk about really in the context of body acceptance or fat pride, but the rest of you guys and gals.. well, you're giving me something to talk about and it's not good. I want to talk about the fatphobia and sizism that goes on in a lot of vegan communities. Now, I realize that this post is going to piss off a lot of people for various reasons, but this is serious and it needs to be mentioned. I want to go on record as saying that I know that not every vegan or vegetarian is sizist, but I've noticed a very obvious pattern in groups and forums over and over. I even wrote a blog about it quite a while ago (warning, completely different blog from this one which is more personal to my other beliefs on politics and religion so if either of those offend you, best to just keep reading here). In that blog, I talked about how Dr. McDougall, a doctor who pushes a vegan diet as a way to reverse heart disease, said, "Fat vegans, however, have failed one important animal: themselves. Furthermore, their audiences of meat-eaters and animal-abusers may be so distracted by their appearance that they cannot hear the vital issues of animal rights and the environment; resulting in an unacknowledged setback for a fat vegan’s hard work for change." which basically means- sorry, but if you're fat nothing you say really matters.


So, now that we've established that I'm not talking about all vegans, I think it's fairly clear that vegans (and many vegetarians) hate fat people. Now.. I get it. I do. Vegans tend to get lots of hate, even if they're keeping quietly to themselves. Their very existence tends to offend people so they feel like they have to have the very best image possible. People assume that vegans are malnourished, nutrient deficient, sick, and basically every sneeze, sniffle, or bad day is blamed on their lack of animal products. Because fat comes with the stigma of unhealthy and vegans want to present the epitome of health then fat vegans are bad for business. So I want to say that I understand the psychology behind all of the fat hate. But that being said I have to also say that it's @#$%& unacceptable.


So here's your strategy, right? Animal products are full of fat and calories and, therefore, if you stop eating them you'll lose weight.. so, market veganism as a diet or "lifestyle change" will bring more people to the movement by preying on their low self esteem and body hatred. While the strategy may work initially what do you intend to do when all the newbie veg's don't lose weight? Or when they lose it but then gain it back? As a diet, it fails, just like any other, and you've lost your pull. More so, you've become part of an industry which is cruel to animals.. specifically the human animal. Yeah.. maybe only beautiful, thin, tanned girls and buff, handsome, wavy haired guys will make you look good on the surface, but do you really want to be that shallow? More so, do you want to alienate over half of the population?


I asked some vegans over at reddit to give me their opinions on fat people. Over and over I was told that vegans are thinner than omnivores, but when asked for evidence I was given studies which, again, only showed a very slight difference in BMI (which we all know is what? That's right.. inaccurate and horribly flawed to begin with), which amount to 30 lbs or so. In addition, 25 vegans were turned down for weight that wasn't near enough to the ideal, likely skewing the results. Otherwise the results were pretty typical. The same fat hate and social beliefs were present in the vegan community as any other- fat people were lazy, gluttonous, unhealthy. They're fat because they over eat and under exercise. I tried not to correct anyone because I just wanted to see the honest answers. And honestly what I saw was that people believed veganism makes people thin "if they're doing it right" and, if they're still fat then they're gorging on fries and cakes all day. Fat vegans are the "bad" vegans and there were definitely some people who said fat people should be hushed to the back of the line so that veganism can appear as awesome as possible (because we all know that doesn't include fat). More so, the same people who said they were against bullying of fat people also tended to say that they should hate themselves and their bodies. The same people who said that bullying and shaming hurt more people than it helped qualified it with "but it does help some people".


One girl, a vegetarian, said that she wanted to go vegan, but isn't because she's afraid of facing judgement (user solutions were for her to go vegan and not tell anyone- like that 'friend' you always hang out with in secret but pick on in front of your other buddies). Another said that she's vegan but doesn't tell anyone because she's afraid of the same. She said that she even stopped protesting or talking to others about it because she felt that she didn't represent veganism very well because she was fat. A non veg friend said that vegans were both ableist and sizist. A vegan from twitter said that the fat hate in vegan circles kept her from attending vegan events.


It's no wonder so many fatties are afraid to go near veganism or vegetarianism with ads like this from PETA:








"Obesity is a sign of a societal problem. We didn't used to be fat. Our children did not use to waddle. And we need to stop being so sensitive about pointing out that people are overweight."
- Ingrid Newkirk to the Washington Times.



But we know that PETA is sexist and sizist- after all, their spokeswoman, Ingrid Newkirk, has said that she believes that it's impossible to get fat on a vegan diet and that people are only fat because of animal products, but what about your average vegan? I follow a lot of vegans- in my blog reader, on facebook, on twitter.. and I'll tell you that it's pretty common for me to de-friend someone for photos like these:




"Live fat Die young" vegetarian T shirt






Keep in mind that these are all photos that have been posted by actual vegan advocates in the name of veganism.. one facebook vegan advocate had an entire album of nothing but these types of photos with sizist, fatphobic, captions. Vegans that I spoke with seemed caught in limbo between fact and prejudices and their own experiences. Many claimed that you didn't have to be thin to be healthy while turning around and insisting that fat was unhealthy. I can't say that I saw anyone really respond in a body positive way.


I spoke to one vegan fat activist, Kreeli, or, ZaftiVegan, whom i follow on twitter. She said, "I'm fat, and i've been vegan (really) since 1998. i got sick of being told i "wasn't doing it right" or i was lying about my veganism within the first year. enough is enough. there is room in the veg' movement for ALL animals - why not ALL people?" in one reply talking about sizism in the vegan community. Kreeli went vegan in '98 back before the explosion of online forums and vegan meetups.. in response to an email I sent her about fatphobia in the vegan community she said, "I didn't even know there *was* a vegan "community", at least not as it exists today. There were a few websites and a couple of message boards that I joined........I did find on those sites that fatphobia was rampant."


Not a lot of fat people come to veganism already loving their bodies (as Kreeli pointed out to me, neither did she- she had the same problems many fat people face in terms of body image and disordered eating/eating disorders) and many vegan communities like it that way. A lot of, though, of course not all, vegans and vegetarians use "the obesity epidemic" and people's fears about weight and health. They prey on people's weakness and insist that going vegan will make you thinner and healthier and happier and the world will be made of rainbows and and unicorns! In other words, they're about like every other part of the diet industry- seeking to gain something from your misery. And I hate that.. because I'm vegan and I love veganism and it does make me happy and when I think of the animals my little heart just swells with love and hope and I do think it's a great thing, but what they're doing isn't.


Kreeli told me, "I feel that there is a percentage of the vegan community that actively engages in fat- and health- shaming... I have been told I must be "cheating" at my veganism because no "real" vegan could be as fat as I am. I have been made to feel liek I am an object of curiosity and revulsion at local vegan events and restaurants because of my size. I have been offered tons of unsolicited advice from other vegans about how I shouldn't eat this or that vegan items because they are what are making me fat- everything from tofu, to sugar, to potatoes, to fruit."


Seems awfully familiar- oh yes.. it's the "bad vegan" theory from earlier. You remember.. the one that says if you were a "good" vegan who ate all of the "good" foods then you'd be super thin and happy by now. Still.. there's some hope. People like Kreeli and myself who do what we can to spread the word of fat acceptance and body acceptance in the vegan circles that we do come into contact with. "I...have the immense pleasure of knowing several fat-positive vegans who make the connection between oppressions and understand you can't liberate animals by grinding fat folks (or people of colour or women, or disabled people) into the dirt."


It's obvious that the message is that veganism is only for thin and healthy people. Thin unhealthy people and fat people are unwelcome. So if 64% of the US is supposedly "overweight" or "obese" then you're alienating the majority of people and, very likely, keeping them far far away from veganism or vegetarianism. More so, the hypocrisy is obvious and ridiculous in a community that's supposed to be about compassion and understanding. You need to get it together.. fat vegans aren't the ones hurting the movement, fat haters are. You have an obligation to all animals- even the human ones.

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

putting this into a slight personal perspective im overweight .. i could lose 20lbs

my ex doctor (hes an ex for a reason im sure you will understand to follow) said to me .. "wow yer my first one and only fat vegan patient ..most are emmaciacted and sickly"

ugg lol

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

Well, she certainly got that off her chest!

I was not a healthy weight as a cooked vegan; in fact, I gained weight. Getting a handle on it now, though I'll never be pin thin. It's good that the author doesn't make blanket generalizations and tries to make allowances. But I must say that if one wrote blog entries about every t-shirt slogan to which one may take offense, one wouldn't ever leave the computer, LOL!

truth is its just EASIER to lose weight eating totally raw vegan. Only some losses occur with just vegan. If a person were to switch to just cooked vegan,it would still be hard to lose much weight. I gain weight even on raw if i eat nuts and seeds regularly! Freedom to be who YOU are is the secret!!!! If you wanna be big!! be big!!! a big healthy vegan is more attractive than a big unhealthy non vegan, for sure !!!
IN the end vegansim can simply HELP a person be healthier and lose weight. Definitely not an end all to health and nutrition learning. We must always be conscious about what we eat and how much of it we eat!!

a good shirt would be " I'm fat, vegan and HAPPY!"

I've felt for a while that certain "gurus" recently introduced an ugly form of body worship to the raw community. They relentlessly sell the mainstream image of the perfect female body, i.e. razor thin with big boobs. Men are similarly pressured. The people who support that have brought a very mean, cynical, immature, and elitist attitude to this community. Just ignore them. The people will eventually wise up and they'll be sent packing soon enough.

One thing I DO like about this article is the fact that it mentions the "failings to a major animal--the human animal."

If you consider that the body and its cells are alive and sentient, filling your body full of processed crap and essentially abusing yourself at the cellular level isn't vegan. This is extremely easy to do with processed foods that lack animal products. Cinnamon Toast Crunch is an excellent example.

That being said, if someone does veganism "the right way," meaning, loads of fresh, whole, foods (not necessarily 100% raw), and finding whatever it is that works with one's body (e.g., makes you feel good, and not only eating a quarter of an avocado at a time because someone said so, my boyfriend is doing great with small amounts of cooked quinoa)... I don't see how it's possible to inflict any harm. It's certainly not going to make you gain weight!

I don't think I've ever mat a fat... or stick thin vegan. I've worked and hung out in plenty of vegan locations, and everybody just looked HEALTHY, the way they are supposed to look. Normal, maybe a size twelve, but great skin and lots of energy. And a generally very accepting attitude... The raw vegan community, anyway, was the most compassionate and open-minded demographic I've ever hung out with in my life. I miss it SORELY =*(

I do see plenty of unhealthy, long-term vegetarians, however. There is a screaming difference that happens if you drop the dairy. I was no exception to that rule. When I went from veg -> junk-food vegan, eating Cinnamon Toast Crunch with soymilk was enough to clear up my back-ne (ewwww!! so glad it's gone forever!!!). But moles didn't start falling off until I went raw... so there is a gradient of bodily-offending items. I also grew up drinking milk in the states when I was little, so I got the added bonus of rocket fuel and Monsanto hormones in every cup.

I could see weight gain in vegans if they load up on things like white pasta... but going whole-foods should eliminate the rest of the processed threats to vegan health.

I think the best thing anyone can do, in regards to diet, is to just encourage anything positive that people are doing when they are trying to improve their diets and asking for help. If somebody wants to stop eating refined sugar, GREAT!!!!!! Awesome! Don't bash them for X, Y, Z in the midst of something good, sometimes the biggest changes start with small steps. =)

>I've felt for a while that certain "gurus" recently introduced an ugly form of body worship to the raw community. They relentlessly sell the mainstream image of the perfect female body, i.e. razor thin with big boobs. Men are similarly pressured. The people who support that have brought a very mean, cynical, immature, and elitist attitude to this community. Just ignore them. The people will eventually wise up and they'll be sent packing soon enough.

who could you be talking about? ;-)


OR maybe....

certain "raw advocates" recently introduced a "overwhelmingly happy feeling to not to be sick and overweight" form of body "presentation" to the "world". They relentlessly sell "their own personal image" of the "beautiful result of a proper diet", i.e. "ideal weight". Men are similarly "shown how a great/muscular/active body can result". The people who support that have brought "their own personal" attitude to this community. Just "envy" them "by constantly whining about them". The people will eventually wise up and they'll be "rewarded financially and also by impacting others positively and saving the lives of those who are interested in their presentation".

Don't forget the silicone and photoshopping.

The problem with your played-out jealousy theory is that I'm in better shape than any of them and have more money, more education, etc., and I never had to call anyone "fat" to do it. I've also effectively helped a lot of people long-term without having to resort to the trite strategy of "tough love" which is nothing more than an excuse for their sadistic tendencies. Nice try though, Leanne.

Show us your pecs! with 100 dollar bills on them! Also we will need your diplomas and transcripts... Love...Leanne ?

The hundred dollar bills will have to come from you. In other words, only if I get paid. Trust me Gary. I have full respect for my betters. If they were that, they would get my respect.

jodi,

i know this was not the intent of your post, but if you care to share, do you

-want to remain as you are
-know how to lose 20 but unable to make the changes due to attraction to improper foods
-don't know what to do

What a lot of words.

I just don't like fat - on any body - no matter what they eat.

People have got fatter - there's no question about it. When I was a teenager I didn't know one fat boy - now - 30 years later - I know loads of fat teenagers.

Sorry Jodi - but i don't like it. Mostly people eat far too much and don't exercise enough - same goes for meat eaters, vegetarians or vegans.

I don't read all these blogs etc where you quoted all that stuff from - i just look around me. It's very simple - people eat far more than they need to, mostly of the wrong stuff. There's no point pussy footing around it. People can't walk down the strret or go to the cinema without cramming something into their mouths - that's what's got to change - what ever 'path' you decide to follow.

It's true it is extremely unhealthy to be overweight-obese, and there is no denying that this community has PROFOUNDLY increased in the last 20 years.

But acknowledging it isn't judging it. Acknowledging it could actually help it an INCREDIBLE deal, but there's a lot of "political correctness" that puts a damper on the discussion, and, in some ways, I think can leave people feeling disempowered (a profitable situation if your name starts with F and ends in DA).

It's an interesting dynamic... my boyfriend angers a lot of people because he says he could never date someone who isn't healthy, someone who doesn't care about the state of their body. Lots of people have called him a snob. He's not casting aspersions on others--but the body IS your VEHICLE, it is your TEMPLE, and when you choose to CREATE LIFE, it does make sense to want to create it in the healthiest and most fertile space possible... who doesn't want the best for their kids? We all make decisions based on experience and knowledge, and our experience with raw food has led us mutually to the same point.

If you haven't ever personally experienced optimal health, it's a bit impossible to relate to. How many people have even really considered, "What IS optimal health?" How many doctors initiate THAT conversation? (Choice of language and emphasis on compassion also goes a long way, my boyfriend also doesn't think before he speaks. )

REALLY, the survival of the planet is HINGING on a sustainable food supply. It just so happens that the foods that can be grown sustainably also work wonders for your body! We can solve so many problems in one fell swoop!

I was raised on fast food, TV dinners. It was all my mom knew. The internet and a lot of personal frustration were the pivot points for me. Other people I knew eating differently also helped to plant the seeds.

In conclusion: plant your seeds with love and care. Not anger, not frustration, not disgust and not aspersions... they won't quite grow as well. And you may even reap what you sow. :O

I think it's also very important not to condemn, not to criticize, but to ALWAYS offer positive alternatives and solutions. It empowers people, rather than making them feel a divide and hopelessness. It's seductive language... always talk about the good. Coax people into trying better things, and eventually they will learn and realize why it's important to dump the garbage. But nobody wants to be told they're full of garbage, and even if you don't mean it in a mean way, it's hard not to have someone take it like you meant it in a mean way. We all want to be beautiful. Especially naked.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2012 11:39PM by phantom.

Im neither happy nor unhappy where i am im just accepting of where i am at the moment

I am 100% raw vegan , high carb, low fat

I do know what to do

thank you for your concern tho, this article wasnt about me per se ... i was using my doctors snide comments as a point more then anything , actually i was struck more by the reference of vegans being emaciated and sickly .. more then the fat reference of the entire article

yes i could stand to lose 20lbs .. yes i could probably exercise more ... yes i could probablly stress out less over my work .. but it is what it is and i accept that

the tone of the article that bothered me more then anything was one line in particular that stated the lack of commpassion inthe community.

this is where i agree with HH with the nature lately of some people and groups being to try to almost shame people into this lifestyle and i dont think its a productive or supportive way of doing things just my 2 cents




fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jodi,
>
> i know this was not the intent of your post, but
> if you care to share, do you
>
> -want to remain as you are
> -know how to lose 20 but unable to make the
> changes due to attraction to improper foods
> -don't know what to do

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist

hmmm... interesting article

or blog


i guess that is the pitfall of worshipping anything
and seeing it as "good"

its opposite is seen as unholy

then there are those who rail against those who see them in that light

and will try to defend themselves

this is futile

whenever duality exists

there will always be a schism

to defend against that

is to create a schism within a schism

creating laws that prevent people from voicing judgement such as

laws in employment that could result in termination if one makes a comment that is racist or sexist etc.

never prevents people from making internal judgements ( they are simply not voiced)

judgements will always take place

when some thing, outcome or condition is preferred over another


if you value something highly

its opposite will be judged as "bad"

the word "judgement" seems to be used to mean "judging negatively"

regarding something highly is also a form of judgement

its deleterious effect lies in trying to do whatever to maintain that high regard

therein even "good"judgement becomes a trap

telling others not to judge is completely futile

laws or no laws

judgement is a fact of life

wherein ALL decisions are made

whether this is right or wrong

i don't know


i just know that that is the way it is

its a difficult life

to exist in

this life of duality

thus some people forego it

and become ONE
with all polarities

those people are called

"enlightened"

whatever that means

it doesn't make sense for 100% raw vegan low fat to be 20lbs over
no criticism or judgment here, but there must be "something"

exercise is not the reason, imo.

-salt, combos, not enough time all raw ?

Weight gain is actually a common complaint from those on fruit heavy raw diets, especially amongst women. I never experienced it, but there are definitely quite a few who have.

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> it doesn't make sense for 100% raw vegan low fat
> to be 20lbs over
> no criticism or judgment here, but there must be
> "something"
>
> exercise is not the reason, imo.
>
> -salt, combos, not enough time all raw ?

I don't see where Jgunn stated that any weight gain occurred after starting a high-fruit diet; just that he/she could stand to lose 20 pounds.

Semantics. Weight gain, not losing weight, these are increasingly common complaints. Nothing is perfect and no diet works the same way for everyone. It's okay to trouble-shoot.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see where Jgunn stated that any weight
> gain occurred after starting a high-fruit diet;
> just that he/she could stand to lose 20 pounds.

> I never had to call anyone "fat" to do it.

btw, this repeated boohooing about how DR called someone fat is getting a bit old

. maybe the person was fat
. maybe the person will look back and think that it was the best thing anyone ever said
. maybe people should instead be taught not to concern themselves with other peoples opinions

same thing with someone calling me skinny. should i complain about it ad nauseum?

For someone who's so thick-skinned, you sure are thin-skinned about people being thin-skinned. Keep it up genius!

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > I never had to call anyone "fat" to do it.
>
> btw, this repeated boohooing about how DR called
> someone fat is getting a bit old
>
> . maybe the person was fat
> . maybe the person will look back and think that
> it was the best thing anyone ever said
> . maybe people should instead be taught not to
> concern themselves with other peoples opinions
>
> same thing with someone calling me skinny. should
> i complain about it ad nauseum?

No Fresh im pretty sure its lack of excercise and lack of sleep ..im working 10 hour days since January doing taxes in an accounting office while maintaining a high calorie raw vegan diet

complete sedentary ..completely ..

this is the nature of the business i am in .. 6months busy 6months not

I suppose i could lower the caloric input somewhat but honestly im comfortable with the amount of food i eat and have no desire to mess with a good formula that for the moment works for me

but i digress i didnt post this to whine about my extra padding

...Jodi, the banana eating buddhist