I was told in another thread that vegans are low in Zinc (thanks Powelifer!). And it is believed that changing to frutarianism alters the hormones in males to produce less testosterone ["Left in the Dark"]. Maybe an explanation of this effect could be found with the Zinc levels since fruits have little Zinc

quotes are from [www.naturalpedia.com]

"a diet excessively high in fibre, calcium or iron levels can also create a zinc deficiency,- white marks on the finger nails are a common sign of zinc deficiency. Dairy products, liver, meat, chicken, fish, oysters, green leafy vegetables and wholemeal bread all contain zinc"

"Animal studies show that marginal zinc deficiency can reduce testosterone formation by 40 percent, whereas serious zinc deficiency can reduce it by 60 percent."

(An explanation of food switching problems (ie from 811 to cooked) could be also found in this quote)

"In other instances, the digestive enzymes are not activated because of low stomach acid, poor pancreatic function, or zinc deficiency (zinc is often needed to turn on these enzymes)"

(hair loss in the 811 diet is a sign of either Zinc-protein deficiency or both)

""If you've changed your eating habits or have been on a crash diet and you're losing your hair as well as weight, it may be a tip-off that you have a nutritional problem such as an iron, protein, or zinc deficiency. "

"Symptoms of zinc deficiency include dermatitis, fatigue, susceptibility to infections, hair loss, impaired immune function, loss of appetite, diminished libido, and prostate conditions. The best food sources of zinc include beef and other meats; poultry, particularly dark meat; fish and other seafood, especially oysters; and eggs. Whole grain breads and cereals, nuts, legumes, and brewer's yeast are other good sources. Because they avoid animal foods, vegetarians have a tendency to experience zinc deficiency."


What do you think?

Can be low is the key word, just thought id clear that up before everyone jumps in and takes what i said out of context lol.

It isn't hard to achieve the RDA of zinc on a vegan diet especially one that contains ample amounts of beans, legumes, nuts and seeds. These are the richest vegan sources. Zinc and copper balance is where the potential problem lies though, it is fairly easy to achieve the RDA of zinc like i say above on a cooked vegan diet, but the problem is that most raw diets are very rich in Copper and thus have the potential to produce an unfavourable zinc/copper balance. Experts believe that the optimal ratio of Zinc/Copper is 8/1 and at the very least should be 6/1.

These problems become more apparant in people with biochemical mineral/metal imbalances like you see in adrenal fatigue and many other disorders. Or those with poor digestion and thus poor Zinc absorption which is an acid-dependant mineral for absorption, not only that but is involved in stomach acid production. Those induldging in factors that influence zinc loss such as drinking alcohol are more at risk as are those who chronically stress, zinc is involved in adrenal hormone synthesis and thus is used up during stress.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 07:41PM by powerlifer.

i have tracked my nutrients on fitday doing high carb raw vegan and have never had a problem getting enough zinc. *shrug* if someone wants to speculate about another's diet without numbers, fine. i'm sure omnivores are commonly short on many things, as are cooked vegetarians.

I guess I would wonder what the serum values of testosterone are. It's a hormone that both women and men produce. Too much can be as much of a problem as too little. According to Dr. Fuhrman, serum testosterone correlates better with breast cancer than estrogen does (see Eat To Live, p96 2011 edition). That's not suprising since breast tumors use an enzyme called aromatase to convert testosterone to estrogen to feed on (one of the main reasons why mushrooms protects women so well against breast cancer is that they block aromatase). Too much testosterone is highly correlated with both breast and prostate cancer. Normal levels are obviously different for men and women. [www.nlm.nih.gov]

"Normal Results

Male: 300 -1,000 ng/dL
Female: 15 - 70 ng/dL

Note: ng/dL = nanograms per deciliter

The examples above are common measurements for results for these tests. Normal value ranges may vary slightly among different laboratories. Some labs use different measurements or test different specimens.Talk to your doctor about the meaning of your specific test results."

I'd say if my testosterone levels were on the low side unless I had some problem, no biggie.

Zinc is one of those minerals that is not easy to get on a raw vegan diet but if you know what you are doing you can do ok. Pumpkin seeds and sesame seeds are good source. Sprouted lentils and mung beans are another. I've seen Jeff Novick question the DRIs for women and men (8 and 11 mg respectively). Obviously phytates and oxalates play a role here. So, soaking nuts, and beans is always advised. I'd have to see what Jeff said about real zinc utilization, but it's probably the same as other macro and micronutrients. The DRIs are conservative with safety factors. A blood test would always check.

Why do I not show zinc def. Without
All these "good" sources of zinc?

Again the unfortunate recommendation
Of high sources of zinc being called good
Sources.

I am not trying to sink the diet. I am sure there are vegans that are Zinc OK. But what would happen if another vegan ask for advice and nobody says anything about zinc, as if pretending that the diet model is perfect and it has to be something else? I've seen "experts" answer Qs and they advice to eat more (more calories) instead of addressing the highly possible deficiency for losing hair an having low libido. Even the book "Left in the Dark" does not say anything about deficiencies. Instead, it suggests other reasons for hormonal changes related to consciousness and a better world. But maybe the information could help other people that doesn't know the weak points of the diet. Once you know the weak point, you can work on it.

Good article
[www.fao.org]


3 to 4 mg reqd

2500 kcal of JUST watermelon! =3mg

( I could pick many other foods or combos
Of LOW zinc sources)

[www.jotform.us]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 11:07PM by fresh.

I took a liquid zinc supplement for a while, seemed to improve things for me. I haven't seemed to need it again so far.
But I don't believe there is any one answer that works perfectly for every person. We are all individual and something working or not working for you illustrates nothing except for what does or does not work for you, it isn't a cure for everybody else's everything.
Try things, see what happens, be flexible and open minded to the messages you get from your body. If it's not working... change it.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not trying to sink the diet. I am sure there
> are vegans that are Zinc OK. But what would happen
> if another vegan ask for advice and nobody says
> anything about zinc, as if pretending that the
> diet model is perfect and it has to be something
> else? I've seen "experts" answer Qs and they
> advice to eat more (more calories) instead of
> addressing the highly possible deficiency for
> losing hair an having low libido. Even the book
> "Left in the Dark" does not say anything about
> deficiencies. Instead, it suggests other reasons
> for hormonal changes related to consciousness and
> a better world. But maybe the information could
> help other people that doesn't know the weak
> points of the diet. Once you know the weak point,
> you can work on it.


1 because it is a deficiency mentality.
2 cooked is deficient, not raw
3 those who focus on nutrients eat the wrong foods

Note I am not suggesting blindness or dogma

I agree to try different things. Sometimes things happen in slow motion and it is hard to tell. Other times, things look unrelated because some complex things don't work in a simple cause effect relation like when explaining things with science and reason in school.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the highly possible deficiency for
> losing hair an having low libido.

Now that's two reasons I'd give up a diet however healthy it might claim to be otherwise! Or supplement deficiency.

Perhaps there is no "ideal" diet? When you choose to follow a path, maybe it's inevitable that while you gain some advantages this path offers, you lose other advantages you would have gained by following a different path. And then it becomes a matter of priorities - which advantages for you, personally, matter most?

What do you think?

Does a healthy rose live forever? Death is natural. Every thing alive dies. To eventually be sick an unhealthy is natural and expected. To think otherwise is only a thought or a desire created from a second thought. Health is not permanent.

Imagine if you somehow woke up 300 years after you died. What would you have liked to do with your life?

chat,

I don't think most people here would disagree with you; check old threads mentioning how social ostracization on raw is worth the mental clarity and physical vitality some posters are enjoying.

I would also add that it is indisputable that it's not raw foodists that commonly present with those physical pathologies, like low libido or erectile dysfunction or idiopathic baldness. If [probably temporary]hair loss and low testosterone are sufficient to turn you off raw, without attempting to re-evaluate your nutrient intake and tweak your regimen accordingly, well, that's one way to evaluate the pros and cons. I don't think it's the optimal way, but I'm different. We're all different.

Actually I wasn't talking about going off-raw; this thread started on 811 diet and that's what I had in mind. But it is right in the sense of going off-raw is just the same choosing a different path.

Attempting to re-evaluate your nutrient intake and tweak your regimen accordingly is exactly what I mean by choosing a path. Say someone wishes to follow 811 because of advantages it offers. Then he discovers the disadvantages of risk of losing hair and having low libido. Now he is presented with options. Either continue as it is, accepting the risk because of other advantages of 811, or refuse to accept the risk and tweak a diet, say by including a supplement. And if he chooses the latter, he would be choosing a new path. But this new path, while eliminating the risk of hair loss/low libido, might instead have other disadvantages, such as those sometimes attributed to supplements. And so on. This is just a hypothetical example, perhaps there are ways to stay on 811 and avoid the risks without supplementation, perhaps there are no risks associated with supplements, etc. I just meant to suggest that there might not be an ideal, and most of the time the person might just have to choose what's more important for him personally.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2012 01:25PM by chat.

Erm... I don't think it's natural to get sick when you age. I think you can live a very healthy life right up to the end. One of my Grandpapas was a spry old thing well into his 80's when he fell and hit his head one day and that was his end. No need to fall to pieces if you take good care of the parts. Eventually something vital will just give out but I don't believe for a second that a dramatic downturn in health is inevitable.

It sounds like Chat is saying there are always tradeoffs, and I agree. How we value the tradeoff, and how we perceive the tradeoff may vary. But it is inevitable that there will be tradeoffs.