ExperimentsWithTruth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst,
>
> I believe I have throughly refuted your point of
> view. So unless Prana attempts to remove what I
> have written thus far, I have nothing else to say
> to you on this subject.

You may believe what you wish. It does not change the fact that you have promoted animal products on a raw vegan board in violation of Terms of Service, not once but twice.

> I'm not promoting animal products any more than
> you're promoting non-raw and I'm absolutely not
> violating the TOS of the forum which emphasize the
> general spirit and major aspects of diet as well
> as tolerance, respect, and kindness towards other
> users.

blah blah blah...you promote eggs and oysters but aren't promoting animal products. double speak. You have violated TOS. this much is clear.

> Prana is fortunately wise and good enough to
> understand this, but if anyone convinces him
> otherwise then I assure you that he is no more
> able to prevent me from posting than you are.

I see, you are Paleo Superman, is that it? Noone can stop you! Even if he doesn't I can ignore you.... since reason doesn't seem to work.

Best of luck. see you around.

Paul

> Best wishes,
> ExperimentsWithTruth

ExperimentsWithTruth, this is a vegan forum. We don't expect members here to be vegan, but the stuff people post here needs to be vegan, with the exception of honey. I will be deleting your non-vegan posts.

ok JEEZ! Nutritional yeast is weird cooked food. They take yeast and cook it. plain and simple.....then they add laboratory created b-12 crap. this is no different than eating a cheap b12 pill. the b12 does not come from the yeast. this is a human invented NON RAW product. I quit eating nutritional yeast a couple years ago because it in NO WAY is raw. I don't like doing things that are using 1950's science. I assume that earth was perfect to begin with. I eat sprouts....which contain b12. I eat grasses. which contain b12. I take in lots of iron with vitamin c, which helps the balance of b12 also.
nutritional yeast is a product designed for vegans who eat cooked food, therefore destroy all their b vitamins. i don't do synthetic.

RAWLION Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok JEEZ! Nutritional yeast is weird cooked food.
> They take yeast and cook it. plain and
> simple.....then they add laboratory created b-12
> crap.

Not really. [www.vrg.org]

"A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12. This brand of yeast is often labeled as Vegetarian Support Formula with or without T-6635+ in parentheses following this new name. It is a reliable source of vitamin B12. Nutritional yeast, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, is a food yeast, grown on a molasses solution, which comes as yellow flakes or powder. It has a cheesy taste. Nutritional yeast is different from brewer’s yeast or torula yeast. those sensitive to other yeasts can often use it.

b-12 is created by bacteria, not animals or plants. For nutritional yeast, it's cultivated on a molasses solution. and then it marketed as flakes or powder. I take it you are not arguing for eggs and oysters.

this is no different than eating a cheap
> b12 pill. the b12 does not come from the yeast.
> this is a human invented NON RAW product. I quit
> eating nutritional yeast a couple years ago
> because it in NO WAY is raw.

I don't know that it is heated. I could check if it is important.

I don't like doing
> things that are using 1950's science. I assume
> that earth was perfect to begin with. I eat
> sprouts....which contain b12. I eat grasses. which
> contain b12. I take in lots of iron with vitamin
> c, which helps the balance of b12 also.
> nutritional yeast is a product designed for vegans
> who eat cooked food, therefore destroy all their b
> vitamins. i don't do synthetic.

Rawlion your personal example is a powerful one. And I have tremendous respect for what you have accomplished personally. That said, I do not believe the science says raw grasses have enough b-12 to sustain raw vegan's needs. If you feel otherwise, that's ok. Just show me what you got.

Paul



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2012 03:15PM by pborst.

Nutritional yeast is heated before it is dried in order to deactivate it (yeast is a fungi) so it is not raw and those who are strive to be strictly 100% will of course avoid it.

Personally I do not see a reason to be strictly 100% raw, and I certainly don't believe that heating foods *necessarily* makes them synthetic.


I use yeast in tiny amounts, it doesn't harm my body, at least according to current level of scientific knowledge, it supplies my body with some goodness in terms of B12 and other vitamins and minerals it contains, and it tastes good!

Personally, this is all i need to allow nutritional yeast enter my diet, which is 100% raw 99% of the time

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2012 04:10PM by chat.

ExperimentsWithTruth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst,
>
> All I can say is that there are many ways to eat a
> diet composed of primarily raw plant foods and
> just because you choose to include/exclude certain
> things from your primarily vegan diet it doesn't
> mean we all should or that those of us who don't
> should have their views censored or deleted.

You are posting on a private board created by John Kohler who has given us this gift and established Terms of Service which you agreed to when you registered here. Your disregard for those TOS is obvious as is your lack of respect to the members of the forum by wrecklessly promoting animal products which Prana has gratiously removed. I'm not saying we should or shouldn't exclude particular animal products, just that you should not be promoting them here in violation of your agreement to follow the rules.

> In fact, honey is "derived wholly or partly from
> animals" and, historically, advocates of veganism
> such as Gandhi have recognized that gathering
> honey is cruel and exploitative to bees (and so
> have even meat eaters like Seinfeld!). Gandhi even
> says right in his book ( "Diet and Diet Reform" )
> that contrary to Hindu teachings he thinks eating
> eggs is "more vegetarian" than eating milk or
> honey (this was before the invention of the term
> "vegan", but Gandhi is clear in this passage that
> "more vegetarian" means "more vegan" and was
> elsewhere a clear advocate of aspiring to 100%
> natural plant based diets).

Per earlier, Gandhi was dead three years before the BVS established veganism as a philosophy. So, again, it's nonsequitor.

> in my opinion, > the overall harm to life on earth of getting
> sucked in to consumer culture and dependency on
> corporate/government labs (by "supplementing" with
> agricultural/chemical innovations like chlorella
> and nutritional yeast) is far greater than the
> harm of eating an occasional natural raw oyster or
> egg.

Promoting animal products three times after you have been politely asked to refrain from doing so. I will give you this, you are persistent.

> So I would appreciate a little tolerance and
> respect and I'm sure so would the OP who is
> suffering from B12 deficiency even when eating
> foods that are very rich in B12 as opposed to
> foods or supplements that may just be borderline
> adequate for normal/healthy individuals (as are
> the ones you've suggested).

I'm not the one threatening to post in violation of TOS or diregarding the dietary preferences of the majority of people that post here. I would appreciate a little consideration and respect for rules which you have agreed to by registering here. No discussion of animal products.

That being said, for
> the benefit of jimtoo (who has expressed that his
> primarily vegan diet is not strictly vegan) I will
> reiterate my deleted suggestion that he might want
> to consider the following foods which are commonly
> eaten raw even among non-raw dieters:
> -Oysters (these are extremely high in B12 with
> 10-100x more than the next highest foods and are
> also considered vegetarian/vegan by vegan
> writers/academics like Peter Singer)
> -Eggs (which are considered "more
> vegetarian"/vegan by some vegan advocates such as
> Mahatma Gandhi)

Translation: I'm going to continue pushing animal products after Prana has asked me not to twice.

> Also, jimtoo, you can look up the nutritional
> information of foods on
> [nutriontdata.self.com] (but remember to take
> it with a grain of salt as all nutrition tables
> are notoriously rough estimates)
>
> Cheers,
> ExperimentsWithTruth

ExperimentsWithTruth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pborst,
>
> I'm not interested in fighting and I'm not
> violating the terms of service.

I won't opine as to your motives. Those are best known to you. You are clearly violating terms of service.

> So I suggest if
> you or the moderators don't like what I have to
> say that you attempt to change my mind with
> civilized argument because otherwise I will
> continue to post here just like all the other
> posters that eat primarily BVS "vegan" (in my case
> 98%+) raw diets whether you want to mislabel my
> diet and discussion as "paleo" or not.

hmmm. this sounds like a deleted repeat, am I right?

> I also could care less what Donald Watson or the
> British Vegetarian Society have to say because the
> fact is that honey is more exploitative and cruel
> to animals than eggs (which are not meat or dairy)
> and agricultural inventions like chlorella and
> yeast violate the spirit of eating raw due to
> their similarity to typically cooked agricultural
> foods like wheat, rice, etc.

yup, you are just repasting.


> Finally, there's also a case to be made that
> coral, oysters, clams, etc are no more meat than
> yeast because:
> 1. The term "meat" can refer to the edible part of
> any food (including fruit) as opposed to just
> animals.
> 2. The term "animal" can refer to just mammals or
> also, in the context of zoology (as opposed to
> biology) does not include inanimate beings like
> oysters and even in the context of biology oysters
> are not always classified as animals due to the
> absence of adequate sensory organs.
>
> So in my opinion you (and perhaps whoever deleted
> my original post) are giving way too much weight
> to the definitions of certain experts and
> organizations as opposed to the concepts that
> determine the relevance and importance of those
> particular definitions (vs others).
>
> Living and Raw Food Boards Policy:
> "Please post and reply to queries related only to
> the vegan/vegetarian living food lifestyle.
> .
> .
> .
> The spirit of the Living & Raw Foods Community
> discussion forums is to support others that eat a
> diet composed primarily of raw plant
> foods(including honey) but no animal products
> (such as meat,dairy,etc)."

chat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nutritional yeast is heated before it is dried in
> order to deactivate it (yeast is a fungi) so it is
> not raw and those who are strive to be strictly
> 100% will of course avoid it.
>
> Personally I do not see a reason to be strictly
> 100% raw, and I certainly don't believe that
> heating foods *necessarily* makes them synthetic.
>
>
> I use yeast in tiny amounts, it doesn't harm my
> body, at least according to current level of
> scientific knowledge, it supplies my body with
> some goodness in terms of B12 and other vitamins
> and minerals it contains, and it tastes good!
>
> Personally, this is all i need to allow
> nutritional yeast enter my diet, which is 100% raw
> 99% of the time

Chat,

thank you for clarifying. It looked like the flakes need to be dried and agree they aren't raw. Appreciate it.

Paul

I dont understand why people have to argue and argue over and over about their "right" to speak of intake of animal products. Go do it somewhere else and respect our board. Sheesh. Maybe write yourself a note if you like to hear your own voice that much. Thanks!

ExperimentsWithTruth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Prana Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ExperimentsWithTruth, this is a vegan forum. We
> > don't expect members here to be vegan, but the
> > stuff people post here needs to be vegan, with
> the
> > exception of honey. I will be deleting your
> > non-vegan posts.
>
>
> Prana,
>
> I am saddened at your response. As I have already
> explained I have not made "non-vegan" posts, but
> simply have a more carefully considered notion of
> veganism that is more consistent with the beliefs
> of the forefathers of the vegan movement than the
> likes of Donald Watson and the British Vegetarian
> Society.
>
> If the nature and definition of being vegan and
> veganism cannot be discussed on a vegan forum,
> then it is not a vegan forum at all, but merely a
> platform for propaganda and suppression of
> individual thought. Therefore, I am reinstating my
> posts and I'd ask that you kindly respect that and
> not make this anymore difficult than it has to be.
> I believe you are a wise man and are surely wise
> enough to know that exclusion, suppression, and
> censorship is not likely to be the right path for
> you or this forum.
>
> Sincerely,
> ExperimentsWithTruth
> "There is no God higher than truth" - Mohandas
> Karamchand Gandhi, universally respected and
> renown member of the London Vegetarian Society and
> forefather of the "Vegan" movement: Gandhi - and
> the launching of veganism

crying towels are down the hall, you don't get your own definition of what vegan means anymore than anyone else. Too many definitions spoil the broth. too many chefs can do that too!

Hi ExperimentsWithTruth,

I'm giving you a temporary break from the forum. I will reactivate your account next week, but I need you to realize that posting here on this forum needs to be of a vegan nature.

Thanks, and we can talk about this later.

Prana

my apologies to the Board. I'm going to take a break. The apology is for the break in harmony which I value. Sometimes in the back and forth you can lose perspective. I think that's happened a couple of times in a few threads. So apologies to some particular forum mates:

chat
Kidraw
Banana Who
Coco
Rawlion
Tamukha
Utopian Life,

While I believe that I have value to to add, sometimes my judgement has not been the best. And I have not projected the values I feel. Know that I value yours and will be around. Your friend always.

Paul



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2012 09:52PM by pborst.

gonna add. juicin john, ... JJ on the juicer/blender forum...

too many headbutts on the Super Angel and Green Star Elite. Both great juicers to be sure. Different price points but both stellar juicers.

Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2012 10:06PM by pborst.

pborst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> my apologies to the Board. I'm going to take a
> break. The apology is for the break in harmony
> which I value. Sometimes in the back and forth
> you can lose perspective. I think that's happened
> a couple of times in a few threads. So apologies
> to some particular forum mates:
>
> chat
> Kidraw
> Banana Who
> Coco
> Rawlion
> Tamukha
> Utopian Life,
>
> While I believe that I have value to to add,
> sometimes my judgement has not been the best. And
> I have not projected the values I feel. Know
> that I value yours and will be around. Your
> friend always.
>
> Paul


---
What? We are all good.

Have a nice respite, Paul! I have been looking over the latest offerings on this thread and am considering taking a "sabbatical" myself!

I do hope new posters here come to understand what we are about, and recognize that being asked to follow rules about posts is not censorship: this would require that the rules be unclear or kept secret. That is not the case here.

You join here, you agree to follow the rules in your posts. If you don't wanna, go someplace that fits your needs better.[shrug]

Hi ExperimentsWithTruth,

One of the reasons why I love this forum, is due to it's strictly vegan nature. And while we are at varying stages, I would suggest that the vast majority of us are aspiring to be 100% vegan, and have already made the decision to exclude animal products from our diet, and if possible, from our life. Most of us believe that changing our life-style in this way will benefit our health, our animal friends and of course the earth.

Therefore, this forum is designed for just that, discussions around veganism, living and raw foods. Moreover, our personal eating habits can be very emotive, and I would be disappointed and offended if this forum became a free-for-all. And IMO that is exactly what it would become, with people arguing over this or that food, either vegan, vegetarian, paleo or SAD etc.

And while your choice of words are argumentative, your comment over restrictions and censorship regarding this particular forum are of course true. However, that is the decision and right of the person who runs these forums (perhaps you should take your argument to him 'John Kohler'). Also, he has provided a variety of forums so suit most people. So, if juicing and/or blending are a primary source of nutrition for you, than there is a forum that has this as its main focus. Nevertheless, John requires that all of his forums centre around veganism, living and raw food. As aforementioned, that is his right, and no-one is forced to register!!!

Another thing, I didn't like your choice of semantics when you commented to Prana's first post, as IMO it was manipulative.

You said this, referring to Prana......

<I believe you are a wise man and are surely wise enough to know that exclusion, suppression, and censorship is not likely to be the right path for you or this forum>

So, if Prana doesn't believe what you've written, then according to you, he's not wise at all.

If you hadn't any untoward motives by your response to Prana, then I apologise, though that is how it read to me, and perhaps others too.

As a suggestion, perhaps there are alternative forums that would better suit you, such as a paleo forum!!!

I wish you well, jalan.

Others are breaking the TOS as much as that bloke did though, making mock pictures of people isn't cool at all, others fighting in just about every thread recently really isn't cool either.

This forum isn't a nice place to be anymore and hasn't been for some time all because a few members can't communicate without getting hostile constantly. This forum used to be a great place for individuals to chat, learn and have a little banter over a common interest. Now its a forum dedicated to people looking to hype their adrenals fighting all day over the most pointless semantics and crap.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/2012 02:00PM by powerlifer.

Ok, well I was only trying to help 'experimentwithtruth' and also have my say. Also, there's no way I'm leaving this forum, for despite the odd altercation, it's still the best darn forum on the net...IMO of course.

I wasn't meaning you mate and i know you were just trying to diffuse the situation .

I guess it was the picture in this thread that made me finally post what i had been thinking for a while. If mocking and treating people like that isn't part of the TOS then it should be.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2012 09:31AM by powerlifer.

Hey powerlifter, thx for clarifying and I agree with you regarding the TOS. I believe that it does explain the focus on mutual respect etc. Below is copied directly from the TOS, and pretty much covers every situation....

* Foul language
* Rude, offensive, insulting or vulgar posts.
* Anything for sale or give away
* Asking for, or giving medical advice, or
* Requests for contributions
* Off topic posts, or posts not deemed proper for the category they are placed
* Slander of individuals or Organizations
* Advertisments of products, services or advertising of other web sites

Also, that we should endeavour to treat each other with....

• compassion
• kindness
• respect
• patience
• competance

The above is also taken directly from the TOS, and really, I don't know how it could be put any clearer.

Thx again, jalan

At least start a new thread titled stupid arguement lol. Meat meat meat, I love meat! Opps I'm not suppossed to say that, just kidding. Lighten up people, and at least try not to argue.

It's difficult to find a vegan forum that doesn't have meat eaters discussing eating meat. I hope this forum will stay strictly vegan.

(I didn't read this entire thread, but I noticed the titel is B12. I recently discovered the Matcha green tea I've been drinking for many months has an enormous amount of B12.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2012 10:42PM by RawPlease.

Thats interesting RawPlease, is it like a home for the bacteria that produces B12, or does the plant absorb it from the dirt that the bacteria live in???

Cheers, jalan

RawPlease Wrote:
I recently discovered the Matcha
> green tea I've been drinking for many months has
> an enormous amount of B12.

I'm sure we'd all be interested to see some research on this. Sounds like a B12 analogue at best to me.

I use cronometer sometimes to track nutrition and when I entered 1 tsp of matcha green tea it showed a large amount of b12. So I searched for a minute and found some sites saying it has b12, but it was just a skim of the sites.

Cool, is it possibel for you to paste those sites here RawP?

Here is a new one I found today. It just says it contains b12 but there's no detail. I think that's the same thing the other sites did.

[www.diet-blog.com]

P.S. When I entered 4 grams of matcha into cronometer it showed 2250% of b12 for the day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2012 06:42PM by RawPlease.

I could be wrong. But I thought the main point of all foods (animal and plant) is not whether they just contain active-B12 but also whether or not they can reduce methyl malonic acid (MMA)? The claim I guess is that if enough of the B-12 analogues (B-12 like substances that don't actually work and can block true b-12 absorption) are present even if you have enough true B-12, you aren't absorbing it.

So maybe having real B-12 is the first step and seeing if we can actually absorb it (methyl malonic acid test) is the second step)? This seems so complicated.

Kref


[www.dogsagainstromney.com]

Thx RawP, and I beleive that's the way it goes Kref