As of late I've been hitting the green smoothies hard, then stumbled upon an article about how such imbibing can lead to kidney stone formation and other fun events from their high oxalate concentrations. As one who has experienced the pleasure of giving birth to a kidney stone in the past, I'd prefer to avoid such a party in the future. Once was enough. The article suggested supplementing with calcium citrate or magnesium citrate, which presumably ushers the oxalates gently out the back door, if you know what I mean...

Is that true? Any experience/knowledge on this issue? Thanks.

i've pondered on the oxalate thing myself
here was the thread i started that is still open ended

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]

i don't know about the calcium or magnesium citrate
it would be neat if others did

i think sometimes u just gotta eat and close your eyes and pray that all is well LOL

cuz everything is a land mine
and every land mine explodes into a kaleidoscope of more wonderings

C'est La Vie

life is good!

Uh...isn't calcium citrate simply calcium carbonate with citric acid? Is it supposed to have a laxative effect? I thought inorganic calcium should be avoided, as in the case of kidney stones.

Norman Walker wrote that raw oxalic acid is not a problem and that makes sense. It's like consuming calcium from raw foods versus inorganic minerals.

I had done a search on this site for oxalates, figuring it had been discussed a zillion times, but nothing came up. Oh well, maybe I'm not a good searcher.

I did come across this statement on another green smoothie site, offering some peace of mind:

"And the vast majority of people who suffer from calcium-oxalate kidney stone formation have never had a green smoothie in their life. Kidney stones happen in some people whether or not they drink green smoothies, consume leafy greens regularly, or avoid leafy greens altogether, as most people in the United States do."

Though green smoothies had often coated my insides prior to my first stone birth, I'd been off them for months when my bundle of joy finally arrived. Plus, I'd been raised by my father, the saddest of SAD eaters and frequent proud parent of kideny stones. A green smoothie never crossed his lips, of that I can guarantee. Having shared his diet early on, I think I'll worry more about that sorry past than the continuation of my beloved smoothies.

I have been drinking green juices for years, I have not noticed anything wrong, some of the science is questionable, we have to rely on common sense and our own reaction to the thing we eat.

Oxalates are generally only of concern if they are being consumed in large amounts by people with existing kidney or gallbladder disease, or are at risk/have had past history of kidney stones.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

I find it is a good idea to mix high oxalate greens like spinach and swiss chard with low oxalate greens like kale and bok choy just so that you have a wider range of mineral sources (calcium, iron and zinc). Beyond the stone risk, you'd just be absorbing less of the minerals available.

jimtoo

<<I'd been off them for months when my bundle of joy finally arrived. Plus, I'd been raised by my father, the saddest of SAD eaters and frequent proud parent of kideny stones>>

"bundle of joy..."

no words.... needed a good laugh... thanks!

Colonel Joe is a big advocated on the benefits of oxalic acid.

[www.coljoe.com]

jj

found another good link.

[www.juicing-for-health.com]

jj

jimtoo,

As you have learned, the incidence of kidney stones is prevalent among SADers, not raw vegetarians, so this is something to consider. One of the recommendations of old timey doctors is to stay hydrated--if the kidneys have sufficient water going throught them at all times, calcifications/crystalizations cannot form. It is possible that your kidney stones started developing before you went raw, and only presented recently. It's also possible that you weren't receiving quite enough hydration in general, and this caused a build-up of minerals in your kidneys.

Interesting side note: After this thread was created, I just happened to buy a can of a cleaner called Barkeeper's Friend. I was trying to find out exactly what's in it, and I noticed a statement on the can: "This product contains oxalic acid." I thought that was quite interesting...

The oxalic acid tale is an interesting one - good links from juicin john - but yeah, I think I'll take my chances and feel relatively safe by doing the opposite of my father, and if I still end up producing as many stony progeny as he did, well, I guess I'll have a reason to celebrate father's day...

It is the inorganic oxalic acid that is harmful.

Quote

Just remember, organic oxalic acid is essential for your body and is completely harmless if consumed in organic form. It is the inorganic oxalic acid that causes trouble to your body. This is the reason why when you drink fresh raw spinach juice, your body utilizes 100% of all the minerals that spinach has to offer. But when cooked, the oxalic acid in spinach becomes inorganic and may posed some health problems in the long run.

[juicing-for-health.com]

Here is a science study which says the opposite. It's oxalate in raw form that is toxic and that cooked oxalate is non toxic, but it is still nutrient binding. l am always very skeptical of health and juicing sites because they often ignore many facts to support the positive health message on their sites - they cherry pick facts to make out everything is rosey and nice.

The toxic effects of oxalate, phytate and tannins could be avoided, provided the plant food is cooked before consumption (Enechi and Odonwodu, 2003).

and this:

Oxalates, like phytates, bind minerals like calcium and magnesium and interfere with their metabolism. They also cause muscular weakness and paralysis. Oxalates also cause gastrointestinal tract irritation, blockage of the renal tubules by calcium oxalate crystals, development of urinary calculi and hypocalcaemia (Oke, 1969; Blood and Radostits, 1989). Jones et al. (1997) reported that oxalates cause nephrotic lesions in the kidney. Oxalate, phytate and tannins are anti-nutrients, which could be toxic when consumed in an unprocessed food (Ojiako and Igwe, 2008). The bioavailability of the essential nutrients in plant foods could be reduced by the presence in these plants of some anti-nutritional factors such as oxalates and cyanogenic glycosides (Akindahunsi and Salawu, 2005). Too much of soluble oxalate in the body prevents the absorption of soluble calcium ions as the oxalate binds the calcium ions to form insoluble calciumoxalate complexes. As a result of this, people with the tendency to form kidney stones are advised to avoid oxalate-rich foods (Adeniyi et al., 2009)


There is another major oxalic acid study that l have read which puts major question over raw forms. Still need to analyse it properly before l can make proper comment.

You wouldn't believe the negative effects some of these anti nutrients have on the human body, it reads like your worst nightmare. l will be posting some stuff in the fermentation thread another day, and when you read it, it will show beyond a shadow of a doubt that food processing is very very important.

I injested my first fresh raw spicach for the first time in years last week and l got so sick. Felt like l was poisoned. It was old overgrown spicach which is notoriously high in oxalic acid.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/27/2013 12:03AM by The Sproutarian Man.

[www.youtube.com]

life vs lifelessness

Good informative video but could hear list of foods low in oxalates. We are doomed. Maybe that is why fasting works so well



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2013 12:30AM by CommonSenseRaw.

According to Kulvinskas humans can overcome natural toxins if we enzymatise our meals via sprouting and ferments because the various organic acids, bacterias and enzyme levels eventually build up in the body which allows us to become more like many of the animals who can naturally break these things down. The problem is that many of us have cooked our foods for many years of our lives and we have drained many enzymes from the body and have run our systems down and are now victim to these toxins - we have greatly damaged the body by modern day living, and eating shop bought produce wouldn't be helping.

The sprouts and ferments have far greater enzyme levels than the fruits and vegetables, and naturally the ferments go a long way to building back to body to what it could be. And according to Dr Clement, red tagging therapy shows that food enzymes do indeed survive the acid environment of the stomach and can be used very effectively by the body.

l eat some of the highest oxalic acid foods (Sesame) and l don't have a problem. Instead of destroying my bones, l have built up my bones. Fermentation and sprouting works wonders.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2013 01:12AM by The Sproutarian Man.

sproutman

do u make raw fermented tahini

from sprouted sesame seeds

i love tahini

so creamy

though i never sprouted or soaked sesame

la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sproutman
>
> do u make raw fermented tahini
>
> from sprouted sesame seeds


Yes. l had it for lunch today after some sea weed. Sesame is not safe to consume unless soaked at least for 24 hours, but a 48 hour soak is better. Even better again is to sprout it and ferment it.

l personally wouldn't trust shop sold tahini or packaged health foods because they wouldn't take the time to process the foods properly, + who really knows if it is truely raw and not irradiated.

Sesame is high in alkaloids, aflatoxins, oxalic acid, phytic acid Ip5 - 6's, tannins and all the nasties, but they are easily reduced to zero levels when fermented. Here is the proof:

The effects of different treatments on the
phytochemicals, proximate, and mineral contents of
beniseeds (sesamum indicum linn)

Momoh, A.O *, Adebolu, T.T and Ogundare A.O
[garj.org]


Also have fermented chia sprouts, fermented sunflower sprouts and various fermented nut sprouts.

Sprouted fermented poppy would be another great seed to have. The highest vegan source of calcium and zinc, it is a treasure trove of nutrients with little equal,but unfortunately many of those goodies are impeded by lots of anti-nutrients.

It's so silly how good foods have to have so many nasties. Why can't raw foods be highly nutritious and 100% digestable, but most of them have nasty old fangs that need pulling out before we can benefit from them. Pthh.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2013 04:13AM by The Sproutarian Man.

The Sproutarian Man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> la_veronique Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > sproutman
> >
> > do u make raw fermented tahini
> >
> > from sprouted sesame seeds
>
>
> Yes. l had it for lunch today after some sea weed.
> Sesame is not safe to consume unless soaked at
> least for 24 hours, but a 48 hour soak is better.
> Even better again is to sprout it and ferment it.
>
>
> l personally wouldn't trust shop sold tahini or
> packaged health foods because they wouldn't take
> the time to process the foods properly, + who
> really knows if it is truely raw and not
> irradiated.
>
> Sesame is high in alkaloids, aflatoxins, oxalic
> acid, phytic acid Ip5 - 6's, tannins and all the
> nasties, but they are easily reduced to zero
> levels when fermented. Here is the proof:
>
> The effects of different treatments on the
> phytochemicals, proximate, and mineral contents
> of
> beniseeds (sesamum indicum linn)
>
> Momoh, A.O *, Adebolu, T.T and Ogundare A.O
> [garj.org]
> 0al.pdf
>
>
> Also have fermented chia sprouts, fermented
> sunflower sprouts and various fermented nut
> sprouts.
>
> Sprouted fermented poppy would be another great
> seed to have. The highest vegan source of calcium
> and zinc, it is a treasure trove of nutrients with
> little equal,but unfortunately many of those
> goodies are impeded by lots of anti-nutrients.
>
>
> It's so silly how good foods have to have so many
> nasties. Why can't raw foods be highly nutritious
> and 100% digestable, but most of them have nasty
> old fangs that need pulling out before we can
> benefit from them. Pthh.

We drink the green juices and try to be healthy, yet those can be a problem too. You would think the higher powers would reward us for making special efforts to be healthy, yet they watch us raw fooders crash and burn lol. Raw foods are rediculous. But...adding some fermented grain water provides a solution to the green drinks because the ferment will break down the anti nutrients and provide a stomach environment where we become like various animals because the support will be there to break down the nasties.

First it was juicing with Norman Walker and we found that there was a problem with it (Actually it worked Walker lived to 92).

Then came Natural Hygiene and fruit based diet and we found there was a problem with it too.

Then came green smoothies with Victoria Botenko and we found the oxalic acid problem.

Now we have sprouting and fermenting with the sproutman. Is this here to stay or is there any scientific paper in the work to discard this new trend?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2013 09:39PM by CommonSenseRaw.

I do all combined and they all work for me. no probs


CommonSenseRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First it was juicing with Norman Walker and we
> found that there was a problem with it (Actually
> it worked Walker lived to 92).
>
> Then came Natural Hygiene and fruit based diet and
> we found there was a problem with it too.
>
> Then came green smoothies with Victoria Botenko
> and we found the oxalic acid problem.
>

CommonSenseRaw Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Now we have sprouting and fermenting with the
> sproutman. Is this here to stay or is there any
> scientific paper in the work to discard this new
> trend?

I have involved a professional think tank on this issue recently of seasoned industry professionals and will report back soon. All l want to do is get it right. Is 100% fermentation too much or is it right on the money? It will be interesting to see what seasoned veterans have to say about it.

I've checked the science and population studies, and so far there is nothing to specifically dispute the idea. But l need to be more sure l am doing the right thing, that's why l am speaking to other people with good industry experience.

Pioneering ideas can be risky, so l look forward to getting some feedback and insights from these folks.

www.thesproutarian.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2013 11:22PM by The Sproutarian Man.