Difficult subject. I wonder if any of you have a recommendation for probiotics to buy out of the shelf. I recently read that different animal species have different flora and I wonder what is best ones for us. Some people advice not to take probiotics and leave it to luck. Any ideas, opinions, links, etc?

The most effective probiotics are in my opinion fermented foods such as kim chi, sauerkraut, cultured veggies and kefir for example. They tend to be much stronger than most store bought probiotics.

VSL#3 is a very high potency probiotic and the manufacturers keep it refridgerated and send it by courier in a cool box. The problem with many probiotic supplements is that they are not shelf stable and many health stores simply keep it on a warm shelf, meaning they have little to no viable live organisms.

Soil based organisms also have a high success rate from what i have heard. They go under the brand name Natures Biotics but i believe has recently changed to Body Biotics.

Overall though, prebiotics may be of more importance in restoring the gut flora. There are literally thousands of different strains of gut bacteria and you can only repopulate so many, so it makes sense to stimulate the activity and feed them via prebiotic fibers. 2 tablespoons of rice bran a day is a good prebiotic supplement although not raw.

Timing is also important when supplementing with probiotics, the best times to take probiotics are first thing in the morning and before bed. This is when the stomach acid is lowest, meaning they have a higher chance of surviving.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 05:27PM by powerlifer.

Thanks for the good info. Fermented food are good but then I would not know what goes in (unless I knew the starter). And I may not be able to be consistent.

The VSL#3 is $high :0 but it has very good reviews

[www.amazon.com]

There are many many out there, all competing. What do you think of this other one (cheaper, free shipping, and with prebiotics)?

[www.amazon.com]

Thanks

Yeah the VSL#3 is pricey but as you say its got good reviews. Ive had alot of success using it to restore my gut flora. It also has studies behind it for putting ulcerative colitis into remission which shows you how effective it is.

I would still go with a more proven option although the product looks decent for the price. I spent thousands of pounds trying many of the common probiotic supplements and will still suggest fermented foods and prebiotics as they are generally cheaper and more effective.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/17/2012 07:10PM by powerlifer.

Here are the probiotics I like: effective microorganisms.

Thanks Prana. That one looks very good (15 Species)

Bacillus subtilis var natto,
Bifidobacterium animalis,
Bifidobacterium bifidum,
Bifidobacterium longum,
Lactobacillus acidophilus,
Lactobacillus bulgaricus,
Lactobacillus casei,
Lactobacillus delbrueckii,
Lactobacillus fermentum,
Lactobacillus plantarum,
Lactococcus lactis,
Lactococcus lactis subsp.
diacetylactis,
Saccharomyces cerevisiae,
Streptococcus thermophilus.

My current probiotics is bad. I got it at Costco but without knowing much

[www.costco.com]

I hope to meet new friends in my next symbiotic relationship

Panchito, the costco probiotic is a single organism in a dormant state, meaning the bacteria are dehydrated in a powdered form and are not currently active and moving about. On the other hand, the liquid probiotic I linked to has a group of bacteria that are living in harmony, and they are alive and active.

The living in harmony part is important, because if you just take a single strain of bacteria into your digestive system, they may compete and try to dominate your existing flora. This competition, or battle for survival, may not feel good in your gut. The effective microorganism (EM) are already living in harmony and are not trying to outcompete each other. Taking the EM will result in a good and pleasant feeling in the gut, assuming you start small and work your way up to a larger dose.

The EM also contains a purple non sulfur bacteria, called Rhodopseudomonas palustris, not listed in the ingredients, that is a bacteria that creates antioxidants, has a anti-entropy energy, one that is life promoting. This bacteria and the energy it produces also contributes to a person feeling good.

Great thread, I'm on the look out for these too. Have been taking powder probiotics in the past, and didn't realise that they were dormant.

>Banana ice-cream rocks!<

Just because they are in powder form doesn't mean there dormant or dead. The VSL#3 probiotic is proof of that, comes in powder form and out of all the probiotics ive researched is the only one that has shown to put serious digestive disorders such as ulcerative colitis into remission.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 05:24PM by powerlifer.

Dormant doesn't mean dead, it means that they are kind of asleep. First of all, it hard to imagine a dried dehydrated bacteria as being active, that is, is it eating and reproducing in its dried out state? I don't think so.

powerlifer, the VSL#3 has 8 bacteria in it 3 bifido, 4 lacto, and Streptococcus thermophilus. Do you know if these are all grown together in one culture, or are they 8 different monoculture that are just mixed together in their dehydrated state?

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer, the VSL#3 has 8 bacteria in it 3
> bifido, 4 lacto, and Streptococcus thermophilus.
> Do you know if these are all grown together in one
> culture, or are they 8 different monoculture that
> are just mixed together in their dehydrated state?

They will be cultured together most likely Prana and not all probiotics are dehydrated infact to the best of my knowledge of the top brands most of them aren't. The whole point in probiotics is that they must be viable and live.

There also adds to the equation that many probiotic strains are also shelf stable under heat. Soil Based Organisms are one of these products that don't need to be refridgerated.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:21PM by powerlifer.

By the way, the VSL#3 other ingredients:

Regular: maltose, natural lemon flavor, silicon dioxide
Unflavored: cornstarch
Capsules: microcrystalline cellulose, stearic acid, silicon dioxide

The effective microrganisms other ingredients: Purified and Structured Water, Organic Sugarcane Molasses, Mineral Powder, Sea Salt, Organic Cherry Juice Concentrate, Organic Blueberry Juice Concentrate, Organic Pomegranate Juice Concentrate, Brown Rice Liquid Extract

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By the way, the VSL#3 other ingredients:
>
> Regular: maltose, natural lemon flavor, silicon
> dioxide
> Unflavored: cornstarch
> Capsules: microcrystalline cellulose, stearic
> acid, silicon dioxide
>
> The effective microrganisms other ingredients:
> Purified and Structured Water, Organic Sugarcane
> Molasses, Mineral Powder, Sea Salt, Organic Cherry
> Juice Concentrate, Organic Blueberry Juice
> Concentrate, Organic Pomegranate Juice
> Concentrate, Brown Rice Liquid Extract

Most of these ingredients are in such small quantities that the effects would be negigible. The proof is in the pudding really though as far as what is the better product(one has solid studies behind it also) and i don't sell VSL#3 either so this isn't a product endorsement of any kind, VSL#3 is just a highly rated product.

I know of numerous ulcerative colitis sufferrers who have managed to get off steroids all down to the VSL#3, which is pretty damn impressive.

Thats not to say the probiotic your recommending isn't good, im sure it is but as far as which one id recommend it would be the VSL#3 purely due to how potent it is, the studies behind it and the consumer feedback being extremely good.

EDIT: I can never find anything solid research wise on the EM probiotic you recommend, just sales sites hyping Dr Higa, could you post some links up Prana as im always interested in broadening my product knowledge.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:31PM by powerlifer.

Now although strength isn't everything the probiotic you are recommending contains only 1 billion live bacteria per serving whilst the VSL#3 contains around 450 billion.

Quite a fair difference which is what makes the VSL#3 so effective compaired to other probiotic products on the market. Hopefully we will start to see even stronger probiotic products eventually as repopulating and restoring the gut flora is not an easy task for many and often requires such high dosages that patients can't afford.

As disgusting as it sounds faecal bacteriotherapy is having great results with c.diff patients at the moment. Its an area of research im keeping a close eye on for sure.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:44PM by powerlifer.

powerlifer, if I type into Pubmed "effective microorganisms", I get 24 results.

Here are a few titles:

Modulation of experimental osteoporosis in rats by the antioxidant beverage effective microorganism-X (EM-X)

Effective microorganism fermentation extract (EM-X) attenuates airway hyperreactivity and inflammation through selective inhibition of the TH2 response independently of antioxidant activity.

Antiangiogenic activity of a concentrated effective microorganism fermentation extract.

Apoptotic potential of the concentrated effective microorganism fermentation extract on human cancer cells.

Evaluation of the toxicity and safety of the antioxidant beverage effective microorganisms-X (EM-X) in animal models.

Growth inhibitory potential of effective microorganism fermentation extract (EM-X) on cancer cells.

The antioxidant drink effective microorganism-X (EM-X) pre-treatment attenuates the loss of nigrostriatal dopaminergic neurons in 6-hydroxydopamine-lesion rat model of Parkinson's disease.

The antioxidant cocktail, effective microorganism X (EM-X), protects retinal neurons in rats against N-methyl-D-aspartate excitotoxicity in vivo.

Assessment of the ability of the antioxidant cocktail-derived from fermentation of plants with effective microorganisms (EM-X) to modulate oxidative damage in the kidney and liver of rats in vivo: studies upon the profile of poly- and mono-unsaturated fatty acids.

The antioxidant cocktail effective microorganism X (EM-X) inhibits oxidant-induced interleukin-8 release and the peroxidation of phospholipids in vitro.

Much appreciated Prana, i will take a look over it when i get a minute.

Cheers, have you read any of them and if so do they conclude a favourable conclusion for EM ?

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:54PM by powerlifer.

Here's some more:

Research on the Antioxidant Components of EM-X and the Mechanisms of Action

Effect of EMX on biological function of mouse treatment with anti-cancer drugs

A quick brief look at some of these studies doesn't really show much as towards hints of potential benefits other than its antioxidant properties and associated common antioxidant related benefits.

There doesn't seem to be much on its digestive effect, any you can find Prana?

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 07:57PM by powerlifer.

Actually, the research has to do with it being a general tonic, good for cancer patients and other people who are trying to heal themselves, including the antioxidant property. The antioxidant in this stuff is so powerful it can turn the rust on a rusty nail back into iron. I think that at the time this research was being conducted in Japan, there was such a plethora of people with digestive issues from antibiotics, perhaps because in Japan their usage of antibiotics isn't as high as here in the US. plus people are not eating beef all the time, which is a huge contributors of antibiotics in the diet.

Also, all the research that concerns bio-remediation, like dealing with oil spills - this shows the capability of the EM to detoxify poisons. In your body, this means converting toxic elements into nutrients.

My own personal experience has me convinced though. Before using EM, when I would eat a nut-heavy fat heavy spice heavy raw gourmet meal at a raw restaurant, I would be detoxing that meal for at least 24 hours, perhaps even longer. With the EM, there is nearly zero detoxification symptoms, as the microbes are digesting the toxins in the raw gourmet foods and converting them into nutrients.

EM is $25 for a months supply, so for a person to try it, it is not a huge investment nor is it a huge commitment. The VSL#3 is $86, $86, and $52 for the regular, unflavored, and the capsules - much more expensive for a months supply.

The EM-X, which is the high antioxidant version of EM, is more expensive - $60 or $75 for a month's supply of SCD Immunity Xtra or EM-X Gold. But this would be used for people who are sick as an immunity booster, rather than as a probiotic, as the microbes have been filtered out of the tonic.

Im not sure why we need to compare the products both are vastly different with the EM having direct antioxidant properties and with the VSL#3 being vastly stronger in regards to its probiotic effects.

You would have to weigh up what is more important for your needs, from the small amount of research i have done in the past hour or so it, VSL#3 is still the stronger product if you are looking to restore your gut flora.

Saying that the EM does look like a product with potential and i will be doing more research and giving it a shot soon to see what it is like. Body Ecology make a fermented drink called Coco Biotic that also is similar in some ways and has antioxidant properties, pretty hard stuff on the teeth though in large amounts but an effective probiotic none the less.

I can't find much personal feedback on the EM probiotic either, amazon has zero reviews for it.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2012 09:24PM by powerlifer.

To learn about the difference between the bacteria found in sauerkraut or VSL#3 vs effective microorganism (EM), check out this site: Syntropic Antioxidative Microbes. The bacteria found in sauerkraut or VSL#3 is referred to as a bacteria monoculture, SAM Type 3-Subtype 1. The bacteria found in effective microorganism (EM) is referred to as SAM Type 4. There is a huge difference in the effectiveness and the strength of a SAM Type 4 culture versus a SAM Type3-subtype 1 culture in terms of robustness, health benefit, antioxidant property, and anti-entropy properties.

EM, or SAM Type 4 contains yeast, lactic acid bacteria, bacillus subtilis, and the purple non sulfur bacteria (PNSB ) and other bacteria. These bacteria a cultured together in a consortium and they cooperate with one another rather than compete.

Kombucha has yeast and an acetic acid bacteria. The yeast and acetic acid bacteria are cultured together.

Sauerkraut and kimchi have lactic acid bacteria.

cocobiotic has yeast and lactic acid bacteria. The yeast and the lactic acid bacteria are cultured together.

VSL#3 contains lactic acid bacteria and other bacteria, but it is not clear if they are cultured together or are simply a mix of monocultures. If they are a mix of monocultures, the bacteria may compete with one another in your digestive system. The only thing really interesting of VSL#3 versus sauerkraut is the concentration of lactic acid bacteria.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 04:23AM by Prana.

I would just like to add that... if you make your own fermented foods... like I do...

Do it somewhere WARM!!!!

I used to live in a house that was so cold, it took 6 days for the kimchi to get sort of fermented and it was still pretty lame. I don't think it was ever 68 degrees there. X.X

Now I live in a nice and WARM (72-80, it's summer and I love it!) house, and my jars of kimchi explode like volcanoes after three days of fermenting. Background temperature for making your own probiotic foods makes a huge difference.

The VSL#3 are definitley cultured together Prana, VSL#3 has a great reputation for a reason, because of its strength(the fact its about 449 times stronger than most of the probiotics mentioned in this thread, in a single dose) and because it works for the majority. Anyway ill leave it at that

Theres room for more than 1 good probiotic on the market lol.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2012 09:03AM by powerlifer.