la_veronique Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> what is a good supplement brand of b-12
> someone in another thread ( not sure which one)
> mentioned they take a b-12 that has 4 different
> types of B-12
> so they can't go wrong
> which brand is that?
> is it good?
> dosage?

ProHealth B-12 Extreme 1 tablet:
Vitamin B-12 35,000 mcg:
Methylcobalamin 12,500 mcg
Dibencozide 12,500 mcg
Cyanocobalamin 7,500 mcg
Hydroxocobalamin 2,500 mcg

MENTAL ACUITY - Methylcobalamin 12,500 mcg
Methylcobalamin, perhaps the most important and potent of the essential cobalamins, plays a vital part in cell growth. Particularly important for your central nervous system, it helps promote healthy homocysteine levels and helps increase the brain's focus and clarity, and the spinal cord's function.

ENERGY - Dibencozide 12,500 mcg
Dibencozide- also known as Adensylcobalamin- metabolizes essential fatty acids to produce more energy. As a biologically active form of B-12, this sublingual B-12 reacts with cells to provide muscles and nerves with bursts of energy.

LIVER SUPPORT - Cyanocobalamin 7,500 mcg
Cyanocobalamin, the most common of the cobalamins, becomes active in your liver, creating enzymes to help the body with blood formation, cell reproduction, iron utilization, and tissue synthesis, while aiding the digestion and absorption of foods.

DETOXIFICATION - Hydroxocobalamin 2,500 mcg
Hydroxocobalamin, one of the three essential cobalamins that make up the vitamin B-12 complex, helps remove heavy metals from the system and supports overall detoxification. It assists with methylation and energy production.

Their website: [www.prohealth.com]

Simple Raw Recipes & Health Tips

I've spoken with the company, ProHealth & I am able to give discounts on their products if purchased in bulk-likely 6-12 bottles (or a combination of their products). So if anyone is finding their B-12 helpful & want a discount, just email me. So far I've been very impressed with them as a company.

Simple Raw Recipes & Health Tips

the last recommended sublinguals have huge amounts of B12. But! I have tried 1000 mcg sking patches and felt a whole lot more effects than a 5000 mcg sublingual. The reason why is that the skin patch stays on the skin for 24 hours, meanwhile the sublingual lasts only 20 minutes. So, of that huge amount, only a small percentage will go inside, everything else will be wasted. You can also get cyanocobalamin cheap at 10000 mcg but it looks gross. It would be better to have several smaller doses. Just my two cents.

[www.amazon.com]

Ive given over b12 150 shots out now. Many of those to my meat eating friends.

If people are struggling to lose weight, many report benefits after doing a cycle of b12 shots. Read up on it.

So I am confused is this something we should be worried about or not? Also where can you get b12 naturally with out it being related to the sea I'm allergic to anything that lives in the sea..

Panchito, the sublingual does not go to waste it mostly enters your blood stream and loads you up. If you did a test after taking this you would see that your levels would be way up for days. I am intrested in your experience though with the patches? I went to the link you supplied but could not find the patch? Thanks Chris

skin patches really work. There is a noticeable difference on how you feel the next day when you do physical activity.

This is what I've used:

1000 mcg

[www.amazon.com]

5000 mcg

[www.amazon.com]


I get a better boost with the 1000 mcg applied on the shoulder. But I have thin skin. If you have thick skin, get the 5000 mcg (tested with a friend).

This is an economical 1000 mcg B12 skin patch (But I've never used it so I have no experience with it)

[www.amazon.com]

Skin patches will help regain the b12 level much much better than sublingual. They simulate waling on dirt (skin contact)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2012 02:38PM by Panchito.

Thanks Panchito, I will definately get some of this with all those B vitamins it looks very good!!

you should see an inmediate effect. Then, it will take about three months to fully recharge.

I belive it is imperative to find the transfer rate your body use. A slow, but constant, transfer rate is better. For example, I think skin patches are better than injections because they simulate nature and are slower. I don't believe much in numbers and labels

It's not just a vegan. Turns out the "normal" eaters are likely to be deficient as well: [fresherthanlife.com]

fresherthanlife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It's not just a vegan. Turns out the "normal"
> eaters are likely to be deficient as well:
> [fresherthanlife.com]
> nk-theyre-the-only-ones-think-again/

This USDA study gets constantly taken out of context. The study only hinted if that the results of a mere 3000 people from one state(might i add) were anything to go by, then a large part of the US may have lower than acceptable levels of B12.

There certainly is no proof of this to be honest, the majority of the studies time and time again find a direct increase in Vitamin B12 deficiency in those following vegetarian and even more so vegan diets.

Also Addisons disease is not pernicious anemia, it is a disease of the adrenal glands. Pernicious anemia is often referred to as Addisons anemia or Addison-Biermer disease though.

Overall that USDA study is the most misquoted and taken out of context study i have come across in a long time.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2012 09:05AM by powerlifer.

One has to wonder where the heck did people got the B12 before roasting meat. Did they step on a mouse and eat it raw? Some argue that humans came about with cook food but that is only about the brain, not the b12. Maybe we were supposed to live naked and on the tropics. What I am saying is that modern life may have changed the conditions. It is like humans coming up with meat-eating evolutionary-diet theories becuase they found they need the B12 of meat while living inside a submarine.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2012 04:42PM by Panchito.

@powerlifer:
Sorry you feel that way. In my own experience, I have no reason to doubt it--I know of meat-eaters and vegans alike with the deficiency. That, and see below:

That, and, it's a question of how we measure the deficiency....it's long been an argument as to how much we actually need and how best to measure it (urine test or blood test). To my knowledge, even studies in the UK don't agree on that



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2012 05:05PM by fresherthanlife.

B12 deficiency can and does occur in meat eaters, only when it does its due to absorption problems such as lack of Intrinsic factor.

The direct increase in B12 deficiency that occurs in vegans and strict vegetarian diets is solely due to the lack of dietary intake in the majority of cases.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2012 05:13PM by powerlifer.

from the 3000 person study:

Oddly, the researchers found ******no association****** between plasma B12 levels and meat, poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12 in the diet. “It’s not because people aren’t eating enough meat,” Tucker said. “The vitamin isn’t getting absorbed.”

It will have been one of the few studies to have. Look who the study is funded by also though and what they are recommending to resolve the b12 levels i.e fortified cereals.

Fortified cereals are not real food you'd be aswell with a quality B12 supplement at that rate, more garbage dietary propaganda from the Agricultural industry. Much in the same way people hate the skewed Weston Price studies. The funny bit is grains are directly linked to intestinal absorption problems through gluten and lectins which contribute to leaky gut(increased intestinal permeability)

In the elderly thats a different story and the sort of absorption associated problems we expect to see as we age, largely due to lowered levels of stomach acid. But they are almost making out if the only problems with B12 deficiency are absorption based, which is again absolute garbage.

Either way its only one state and 3000 people, we cannot assume that the whole of the US has sub optimal levels of B12 as a result of one study and the very narrow criteria above.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 11/11/2012 07:17PM by powerlifer.

The USDA has no reason to promote veganism, so although normally I'd agree with the mal-intent of such an organization, they have nonetheless come to the conclusion in this case that vegans AND MEAT EATERS alike have the tendency to become deficient, regardless of the reason. So far, no one has really disagreed with that premise, even if you don't like the study

fresherthanlife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The USDA has no reason to promote veganism, so
> although normally I'd agree with the mal-intent of
> such an organization, they have nonetheless come
> to the conclusion in this case that vegans AND
> MEAT EATERS alike have the tendency to become
> deficient, regardless of the reason. So far, no
> one has really disagreed with that premise, even
> if you don't like the study

This is true and i agree, but only to an extent. The study sort of makes out that vegetarians and vegans have no increased risk of B12 deficiency, when there are mountains of reliable research that would disagree with that.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

What would you say is the primary absorbable source of B12 that meat eaters get and we don't? We know that B12 is largely destroyed by heat and irradiation, and that B12 supposedly present in meat isn't well absorbed.

fresherthanlife Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What would you say is the primary absorbable
> source of B12 that meat eaters get and we don't?
> We know that B12 is largely destroyed by heat and
> irradiation, and that B12 supposedly present in
> meat isn't well absorbed.

Meat is the primary source dietary source for most, research on the bio availability of B12 from various foods showed meat, fish, shellfish etc to be around 40-70% bio availability. Eggs come much further behind but are still a reliable dietary source.

Dairy being the poorest common dietary source of B12. The only reason it is generally so recommended as B12 source is because the average diet contains a fair amount of dairy, so it adds up in the end.

You are right in that heat does lower the B12 content, but it doesn't destroy it all. Again it depends on the food, fish and shellfish show significantly less loss of B12 by heat compared to dairy foods.

Not that im advocating any of the above. But if someone wants to follow a strict vegan diet then supplementation of B12 is essential in my opinion.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2012 08:50AM by powerlifer.

Fixing the b12 deficiency problem with meat can be really health expensive. Yes, you could now have b12 but you would get all kind of problems. Meat protein is bad for the kidneys. Meat fat is bad for the cells and blood (and heart). Dairy milk is bad for mothers and kids (leaky gut) and there are studies that say that can cause diabetes in infants by triggering the immune system to attack the pancreas cells. Check out the book called "Dr Neal Barnards program for reversing diabetes." Avoid eggs, milk, meat, and fish products to get the B12 because you introduce a new set of problems the make the health worse. A B12 supplement is a better choice. We are not made for meat consumption. People modify it by cooking it, but it is still a bad choice (introduces new set of problems). So while you may fix one problem, you are adding 10 more.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2012 02:52PM by Panchito.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fixing the b12 deficiency problem with meat can be
> really health expensive. Yes, you could now have
> b12 but you would get all kind of problems. Meat
> protein is bad for the kidneys. Meat fat is bad
> for the cells and blood. Dairy milk is bad for
> mothers and kids (leaky gut) and there are studies
> that say that can cause diabetes in infants by
> triggering the immune system to attack the
> pancreas cells. Check out the book called "Dr Neal
> Barnards program for reversing diabetes." Avoid
> eggs, milk, meat, and fish products to get the
> B12. Better take a supplement just in case.

Not defending meat but is there any proof that protein or fat's from meat are bad in moderate quantities. A excessive intake of protein or fat regardless of source is a potential issue for kidneys.

I do agree with the dairy though and yeah it has been linked to issues before the gut closes off to those type of proteins.

Grains in particular the gluten/wheat containing ones are much bigger contributors to leaky gut than dairy though.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2012 02:55PM by powerlifer.

Hi powerlifer, have you ever watch a farm channel in TV? They market injections for everything. There are injections for everything. For example, when losing weight. When you eat meat, you are also eating lots of synthetic chemicals that go inside your cells. Fish is no exception. Things were different when the sea was clean. All those invisible pollutants change the body cells. People get cancer because of these pollutants and artificial chemicals. They don't kill you on the spot but they accumulate and create unexpected problems. This type of food also rottens fast in our slow gut creating a new set of toxins.

[www.amazon.com]

Pure animal protein (without the added modern chemicals) accelerate the gradual loss of kidney function in humans. The more meat you eat, the worse your kidneys get.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2012 03:12PM by Panchito.

Hey Panchito,

There are artificial chemicals in all food we eat though including plant foods in abundance. Unless you are eating strictly organic produce and even then you will still be coming in contact with some level of pollutants from your food supply.

Again is there any data to back that eating sensible amounts of these foods causes kidney function loss ?.

Mercury and PCB's are an issue with sea food i respect that but its often overplayed in my opinion and there are safe choices, what about countries who eat large amounts of seafood such as those in the Mediterranean, they certainly aren't all falling to bits from mercury poisoning and toxins etc. Infact they have lower levels of heart disease, diabetes and other degenerative diseases in comparison to other countries.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2012 03:20PM by powerlifer.

Hey, PL.

All I can do is to quote the book of reversing diabetes. There are probably other studies.

"Research studies have shown that among people with any degree of kidney damage, animal protein increases the risk of further kidney deterioration"


E.L. Knight et all., "the impact of Protein Intake on Renal Function Decline in Women with Normal Renal Function or Mild Renal Insufficiency," Annals of internal Medicine 138 (2003): 400-7

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey, PL.
>
> All I can do is to quote the book of reversing
> diabetes. There are probably other studies.
>
> "Research studies have shown that among people
> with any degree of kidney damage, animal protein
> increases the risk of further kidney
> deterioration"
>
>
> E.L. Knight et all., "the impact of Protein Intake
> on Renal Function Decline in Women with Normal
> Renal Function or Mild Renal Insufficiency,"
> Annals of internal Medicine 138 (2003): 400-7

Thanks for the reply Panchito,

"With any degree of kidney damage" is the key piece of criteria here though. This is not applicable to healthy normal individuals. There are a number of foods which are contraindicated in those with kidney damage including many plant foods.

The last quote is hard to tell because it doesn't show us any data or anything really, i can't find the link to the study either. Overall though ive never heard of meat causing a decline in renal function in healthy individuals.

Problems usually come with excessive and high intakes which isn't really a logical way to determine if a food is bad. High carbohydrate diets are bad for health but that doesn't mean overall that carbohydrates are bad for you etc.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2012 03:29PM by powerlifer.

I haven't read the study myself but I would like to highlight for you the part "with Normal Renal Function" of the title of the study.

Panchito Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't read the study myself but I would like
> to highlight for you the part "with Normal Renal
> Function" of the title of the study.

Yeah, although like i say it doesn't show you any data as to whether there was a decline or not. The quote is just the title of the study by the looks of it.

Which is abit deceiving to use in a book to be honest when it shows us no data or conclusion. Is there more to the quotes or was that it in the book Panchito?

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

Hi

I fished this out:

pg177

"Animal protein is part of the problem, too, so you want to avoid it. Since animal protein taxes the kidneys, getting your protein from plant sources helps protect them. 16-18

16 M. T. Pedrini et al., "The effect of Dietary Restriction on the Progression of Diabetic and Non-Diabetic Renal disease: A Meta-Analysis," Annals of Internal Medicine 124 (1996):627-32

17 M. M. Jibani et al., "Predominantly Vegetarian Diet in Patients with Incipient and Early Clinical Diabetic Nephropathy: Effects on Albumin Excretion Rate and Nutritional Status," Diabetic Medicine 8 (1991): 949-53

18 L. Azadbakht et al., "Beneficiary Effect of Dietary Soy Protein on Lowering Plasma Levels of Lipid and Improving Kidney Function in Type II Diabetes with Nephropathy," European Journal of Clinical Nutrition 57 (2003): 1292-4

The book has the trick about high metabolism. It is about the health of the mitocondria when avoiding animal fat. animal fat changes your genes and makes the mitocondria less eficient and unhealthier. Check out the book.

Thanks for taking the time to write that out Panchito.

None of the above suggests in anyway that meat causes a decline in kidney functioning healthy individuals though. Those with kidney disease is a different case but like i say there are plenty of plant foods that are contraindicated in kidney disease also in large amounts.

Large amounts of protein will tax the kidneys regardless of source so what hes saying is abit of a swizz really, its just easier to do with animal foods because they are denser sources per weight.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/2012 05:38PM by powerlifer.