Hey CS,

Could you please answer Horsea’s Query - Which herbalists do you respect?

Your response to me (“out-dated, text-book herbalism”) sounded like you didn’t even read Schulze’s article because his Formulas are based on his 20 years of Clinical Experience and he too does not think all of the other Herbalists have a clue, once again, based on his 20 years of Clinical Experience.

So I’m curious as to why you think you know more than those who are considered the most Knowledgeable in their field. Do you have any Clinical Experience? Are your conclusions only based on your own Experience? I value your input, so I’d like to know more details if you please.

<<<this is an expiramental diet that is in its early infancy in my opinion.>>>

Nonsense, we evolved on a Raw Vegan Diet and I asked you before if you had read The Ethics of Diet by Howard Williams and since you have not answered me, I’m going to assume your answer is No. Howard Williams got tired of everyone telling him that Vegetarianism was just a Fad Diet, so he did some research and I think you will find his findings quite enlightening, just as Tolstoy did when he read it.

Tolstoy had it translated into Russian and of course, also wrote one of the most famous books in history - War and Peace. Tolstoy wrote, “Vegetarianism serves as the criterion by which we know that the pursuit of moral perfection on the part of humanity is genuine and sincere.” Compare this to Einstein, “It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living by its purely physical effect on the human temperament would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”

I could go on and on, but I’m going to save that for a new thread.

In the meantime, please tell us which Herbalists do you respect and do you have any Clinical Experience or are your conclusions only based on your own Experience?

Thanks again for your insights.

Peace and Love..........John

Hey John,

At what point in evolution have we lived solely on a raw vegan diet. There has always been some element of animal foods in ones diet. Im not even argueing for animal foods here as i don't like them, just that we have at no point lived on an 100% raw vegan diet. Which makes this largely an expiramental diet in its infancy, most of the people that were considered veterns are now heavily reliant on supplements or include cooked foods.

I respect many herbalists including Schulze, i just feel that many of his views on herbs are out-dated and some of his formulas include basic mistakes such as mixing tannin rich herbs, which can lock up the active components of other herbs.

I am not a herbalist and have never or would never consider myself one, so no i don't have clinical experience, nor do i practice herbalism at present. Id love to do some courses some day maybe but until then im happy to just keep reading and thinking critically myself. I have always stated in pretty much every post that these are only my experiences and only my opinion, never fact or truths.

Like i say cayenne isn't the super great herb that many often make out. As said cayenne really only works at increasing superficial circulation, there are many better herbs that increase deep circulation such as butchers broom. Schulze often doesn't take into account many conditions in which cayenne use is contraindicated, which includes some types of strokes.

I have no solid guru style figure to say i respect, i have read so many books on herbs that i have learned something from everyone of these herbalists, anyone who has a interest or passion for learning about the healing power of botanicals has my respect. Even people like yourself i have learned alot from, not in regards to herbs but other areas of health and perspective. The internet has been my best tool and med journals, evidence based herbalism and natural medicine is what interests me the most.



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2012 03:05PM by powerlifer.

There are certain actions one may take to bring the body back to health such as taking herbs but to say that one need to make herbs part of our daily diet, there is a problem.
There was never a time when family members where excited for a meal of herbs or cayenne. These are not foods as in A is not B.

PL, I don't think sharing your opinion is unsupportive, but when the opinion constantly negates raw-food principles, that you don't think a raw diet is healthy longterm, I really just don't understand why you'd spend HOURS, as you said, on here, unless to discourage people. Also, what do you consider "longterm"? Thanks!

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PL, I don't think sharing your opinion is
> unsupportive, but when the opinion constantly
> negates raw-food principles, that you don't think
> a raw diet is healthy longterm, I really just
> don't understand why you'd spend HOURS, as you
> said, on here, unless to discourage people. Also,
> what do you consider "longterm"? Thanks!

I agree, but the problem is that there is so much crossover. The majority of people that frequent this forum aren't even 100% raw vegans. Like i say, crossover, we are just as passionate as each other about raw foods. I just don't feel than an all raw diet is healthy or nutritionally complete. There is much discussion to be had here on diet.

I don't want to discourage anyone and that certainly isn't what i want, i just want to provide them with a different viewpoint because i didn't have good results with an all raw diet and many don't. Why do people get so offended when their ideals are challenged?. Is raw about becoming someone who doesn't critically think and just accepts whatever GURU X says without question?

Many people who were veterans and very strong pro supporters of being fully raw who i wont name on the forum have run into problems with the diet longterm. Raw forums tend to only like to show the beneficial side to things and sweep the rest under the carpet. This is something newbies don't see, they get an influx of people who are relatively new to the diet saying how great everything is. Just ignore your problems its all detox. If people are as interested in declaring the truths as we say, then we should be at least aloud to see the full picture.

I would say 10 years completely raw vegan would be enough to be considered long term. Can you trust that these people are completely strict with their diet ?, 99% of the long term raw vegans i can find all have something to sell, this does mean they may be swayed to bias.

Where are all these thriving long term raw vegans who dont offer coaching, videos, supplements and books? I can't find them, the long term people i can all either rely heavily on supplements or are now including some cooked food. I know this type of view point is not what many want to hear, which is a shame because not everyone gets on great with a raw diet.

Like i say im not sure why this matters, i am leaving shortly because i agree my ideals on diet have now evolved so far away from natural hygeine which is what dominates this forum these days. It is hard to leave when i have many people PMing me saying they have gone through similar issues and have found my posts helpful.

Also RP many herbs have been used as food for thousands of years, just as long as anyone was eating bananas. Wild weeds/herbs such as nettle, dandelion etc.



Edited 10 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2012 05:57PM by powerlifer.

For me if someone is promoting a particular health system, that person life must be the proof for the success of that system. So who is SCHULZE?

powerlifer Wrote:
> I would say 10 years completely raw vegan would be
> enough to be considered long term.


---
I can personally say I've been vegan 10 years this month! Woo hoo! Raw about half the time 4.5 years now. I'll let you know how much I'm lifting 2017.

I agree that promotions/marketing/money-making off of this lifestyle seems prevalent. Howeve, your term "many" raw fooders failing or not succeeding I find to be nonspecific, non-scientific, and I'm not sure what you base that on, or how "many" that means.

I personally don't know any in real life who tried raw, at least not that I'm good friends with. I have stoppped in a few shops and people have said they're raw and made a new friend who has been raw for 2 years, so we'll see how that goes.

Are you suggesting that cooked vegan foods add more healthy or "missing nutrients" that you vaguely reference, or animal products (again, I know you can't be specific if you're suggesting animal products, due to the vegan forum)?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/2012 10:48PM by Utopian Life.

Hey, powerlifer, I am not 100% raw either. Also, I occasionally consume raw egg yolks from humanely raised chickens who die of old age, not slaughtering. So I am not a vegan. But I really like reading a lot of the posts here on this forum, as it's not just about raw food diet, but health in general. So, it's a nice place overall and I hope that we who are not 100% are welcomed.

speaking of non-vegan foods is not allowed on this forum.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> speaking of non-vegan foods is not allowed on this
> forum.

The non-vegans may loose their veganity



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 12:12AM by madinah.

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Utopian Life Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > speaking of non-vegan foods is not allowed on
> this
> > forum.
>
> The non-vegans may loose their veganity


--
nope, what they do in their life and personal messages is their business. the terms of this forum are pretty clear, and it's at the top of the page.

Are we to conclude that the vegans are not resilient in their belief system?

madinah Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are we to conclude that the vegans are not
> resilient in their belief system?

---
you're free to conclude whatever you want.

the only correct conclusion you can make that a vegan-labeled forum allows vegan-only discussion is that it's one of the rules by the admins or forum creator based on their desire for the rule. as to the individuals posting and their reasons why they desire a forum for vegans, that varies, just as omnivores' thoughts vary.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The raw food movement is heavily steeped in dogma
> though, it is about writing side effects off as
> just detox, believing in many theories that aren't
> backed up by logic or common sense. Its about
> using wild animals as basis for many of the
> reasons why we, do this or that. Its essentially
> about believing that the raw diet is a cure all
> panacea, which in my opinion it isn't.
>
----------
I haven't experienced this. Nor do my reasons for raw seem in line with your topics enumerated. Maybe we can PM, though, since this is off-topic and not in line with the forum support.

Utopian Life Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> powerlifer Wrote:
> > I would say 10 years completely raw vegan would
> be
> > enough to be considered long term.
>
> I can personally say I've been vegan 10 years this
> month! Woo hoo! Raw about half the time 4.5
> years now. I'll let you know how much I'm
> lifting 2017.
>
> I agree that promotions/marketing/money-making off
> of this lifestyle seems prevalent. Howeve, your
> term "many" raw fooders failing or not succeeding
> I find to be nonspecific, non-scientific, and I'm
> not sure what you base that on, or how "many" that
> means.
>
> I personally don't know any in real life who tried
> raw, at least not that I'm good friends with. I
> have stoppped in a few shops and people have said
> they're raw and made a new friend who has been raw
> for 2 years, so we'll see how that goes.
>
> Are you suggesting that cooked vegan foods add
> more healthy or "missing nutrients" that you
> vaguely reference, or animal products (again, I
> know you can't be specific if you're suggesting
> animal products, due to the vegan forum)?

That is a fair time raw, well done if you are genuinely making it work for you, only you will know if you are. But yeah more power to what is working and if the raw diet is working for you then im all for that .

I just think its fair to be able to point out that there are alot of people who don't get on well with a strict raw diet. I agree its not a very scientific way, but then nearly are the positive testiomonials. Other than John and maybe Prana, you are one of the long time veterns of raw on the forum. But what about all the other veterns like Gosia who went on to develop B12 deficiency and other problems.

There are very few examples of long term raw vegans who like i say don't have some raw commodity to sell. If not where are they all ?, the scene is largely populated with newbies, who try the diet for a couple of months tops then leave. Id harbour a guess that at least over 60% of the main members i talk with on the forum also aren't 100% raw.

Cooked foods tend to be more nutrient dense, many often don't have what it takes day in, day out to eat the high volume that many raw diets require.

[www.vegankingdom.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 09:49AM by powerlifer.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cooked foods tend to be more nutrient dense, many
> often don't have what it takes day in, day out to
> eat the high volume that many raw diets require.
>
> [www.vegankingdom.co.uk]

When nutrients are raw and fresh you need less of them to achieve the same results that cooked nutrients will give. High water content raw food is easier to digest, take less time, give you more energy, raw nutrients are more absorbable

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Cooked foods tend to be more nutrient dense, many
> often don't have what it takes day in, day out to
> eat the high volume that many raw diets require.
>

---
so correct me if I'm wrong, but your issue or quarrel with raw foodism seems to be based on volume and not whether it's cooked or raw; combined your observations of what people are willing/capable of eating?

i always suggest anyone, cooked, vegan, omni, raw, to take a sublingual B12.

There are natural solutions to the b12 issue. Goat milk. It does not kill the goat.

RawPracticalist Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are natural solutions to the b12 issue. Goat
> milk. It does not kill the goat.


Someone here just pointed out to me that we aren't even supposed to mention nonvegan foods - that's me with my raw eggs and then you mentioning goat milk.

It occurred to me that people are splitting hairs by saying it's all right to take Vitamin B12 in pill form, yet wrong to even mention an animal food that doesn't harm or kill the animal.

What takes precedence here - the raw foods or the vegan aspect? The forum is titled "Living and Raw Foods". Doesn't say anything about "Vegan Living and Raw Foods". Just asking, not wanting to gore anybody's...ox.

Does anybody know of a raw food forum where mention of (nonviolently obtained) animal food is permitted? Tks!

Just a reminder, that while we don't require members here to be vegan, the posts need to be vegan in nature, meaning that there is no recommendation of animal products like RawPracticalist did with the goat milk recommendation.

Horsea, just search for raw paleo in Google and you will find plenty of raw animal product forums and resources.

Veganism is good approach to living just that it does not work unless you can supplement properly and most do not know how to do that. [www.independent.co.uk]
And there are many cases like that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2012 04:52PM by RawPracticalist.

eating animal products does not necessarily work unless you supp properly either.

unless you are going to show me evidence of a mixed eater with no supplements added into their foods who has no issues

fresh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> eating animal products does not necessarily work
> unless you supp properly either.
>
> unless you are going to show me evidence of a
> mixed eater with no supplements added into their
> foods who has no issues

no kidding. even the animal feed has B12 added. there's your "synthetic" nutrients!! yum!

Prana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a reminder, that while we don't require
> members here to be vegan, the posts need to be
> vegan in nature, meaning that there is no
> recommendation of animal products like
> RawPracticalist did with the goat milk
> recommendation.
>
> Horsea, just search for raw paleo in Google and
> you will find plenty of raw animal product forums
> and resources.


Thanks kindly! Haven't done so yet, but I suspect it's full of folks into raw meat. Ugh. I make a distinction between something that kills an animal and something obtained from an animal that that animal doesn't even want! And which involves no cruelty. Oh, well!