Once again, it’s time to bring another Old Post back to Life…

[www.rawfoodsupport.com]
Same Old Song And Dance...
John Rose (---.158.47.153.Dial1.Houston1.Level3.net)
Date: 09-10-02 08:24

It's obvious to me that our lifestyle threatens a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons...money being the biggest one of all. Stop and think about...How can anyone discredit something that can be so easily proved like raw food? The only answer is to say that it doesn't work long term. This has been a common theme over the years...in fact, 2 years ago I received this email which explains some of the BS that we see on our BB...

"These guys have 3 basic strategies, one is to say that raw food doesn't work long term with nothing backing it up. Two they pretend to be another person and make a fake story of how they were on all raw and it didn't work have gone back to cooked and everything is better example - long plays post. They say that raw fooders have mental problems and are filled with anger. They insult people with things like raw fooders all eat cooked food in secret trying to get you to react in anger so they can lay claim to the statement that raw fooders are angry and dogmatic. These guys thrive on hate and making others angry. ..."

For the record, I have been doing this for over 12 years [now 22 years!!!] and my life is getting better not worse...my vision is better now then it was 10 and even 20 years ago...I do not feel like I am aging like everyone else my age...I also do not look emaciated...I am still very lean and muscular...it doesn't make any sense to eat any different than the way all of the other animals have been eating for 500,000,000 years.

Personally, if I tried something and failed at it, I would first question whether I did it right before I said that it was wrong. Perhaps some people are not this honest with themselves and cannot accept that they failed by doing something wrong, so they blame the diet. In that case, by all means let's find out what they did so that it doesn't happen to others.

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 04:26PM by John Rose.

Obviously this post is in relation to my recent posts and it saddens me alot, that you'd think my posts about not being able to make a raw diet work for myself are due to some alterior motive especially one that is financially motivated. Considering the amount of time i have been putting into contributing to this forum(pretty much everyday) for NOTHING over the years, the effort i have put into trying to help others again saddens me.

What am i promoting as an alternative? NOTHING. Why, because i dont have an alternative, im simply one of the many people who weren't able to make a raw diet work. Hey im joining a big line of people who have failed on the diet so far, its nothing new. Its great to discredit anyone who has a problem with the raw diet, its all part and parcel of the raw movement, because as we know the raw diet is unfailable and a panacea that works for everybody. If it doesn't work then its always the individuals fault for doing the diet wrong.

Lets flip the post around and look why others are obviously so very threatened by a mere opposing viewpoint to their own ideals when it comes to diet.

As i say this post dissapoints me, even though we have radically different viewpoints on what constituents as a healthy diet, i always thought you were open minded enough to see entertain listening to both sides of the story John. How do you form a balanced viewpoint if you are getting nothing but positive testimonials, you can't.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 05:04PM by powerlifer.

Actually, people on this forum have openly admitted to not being 100%. As someone who's taken part in this diet for 15 years, I can remember a time not so long ago when a 70% raw vegan diet qualified an individual as raw vegan in most people's minds. The rigid 100 hundred percentism has only arisen with the presence of aggressive gurus who profit from pushing people to 100%. Even Doug Graham made a video where he said that his diet was never intended to exclusively be 100% raw. He also suggested that the raw community back off with the aggression. Dan MacDonald recently admitted that he eats eggs in high stress situations. What does that make these people, John? Conspirators in a massive Zionist ploy to bring you down? Some people are inquisitive, others aren't. That's just the world. We all go on different journeys that are never, ever static. You can't change that. All you can do is come to peace with it.

<<<Obviously this post is in relation to my recent posts and it saddens me alot, that you'd think my posts about not being able to make a raw diet work for myself are due to some alterior motive especially one that is financially motivated.>>>

Chris,

I wrote this post 10 years ago and the reference to Money has NOTHING to do with you. In fact, I’ve learned a lot in the last 10 years and I now know that it’s NOT about Money - it’s all about Control.

However, saying OVER and OVER and OVER that Raw Food does not work long term and even short term is DIRECTED DIRECTLY at YOU!!!

<<<im simply one of the many people who weren't able to make a raw diet work.>>>

Yea, but then you turn around and say it can’t be done both short term and long term. As I’ve pointed out to you many times, there is the Science of Healing and the Art of Healing and you seem to be obsessed with the Art - Herbs, etc. and don’t seem to understand the Science.

Yes, for a small percentage of people, maybe 10%, the Science is not enough and they need to Apply the Art. When these people Apply the Science and do Not see Results, most of them Falsely assume that the Science is False and, therefore, the Answer must lie within the Art.

Think about this Chris, why are you still suffering? Why haven’t you restored your Health 100%?

The Answer might be because you don’t understand how to Apply the Science and the Art of Healing and in your case, you may have some sort of Permanent Damage that will never allow you eat 100% Raw Food without some form of Supplementation.

What I find interesting is the fact that you still have NOT been able to eat enough Calories. How is that Kristina, who weighs just under 100 pounds, can eat 3,000 calories a day and a big guy like you weighing twice as much as her can’t even eat 3,500 calories?

Since I am still fairly active, I have no problem eating 4,000 calories a day, so why can’t you?

It’s because you’re still eating DEAD FOOD that sits in your Stomach like a Bag of Cement and now, your Stomach doesn’t shrink as fast as it would had you eaten twice as much of the Food that you are Biologically Adapted to Eat.

So, if you stopped eating all of that DEAD FOOD that sits in your Stomach like a Bag of Cement that takes forever to empty, your Stomach would eventually accept larger portions because the Stomach would know that it wasn’t going take forever to empty.

Interestingly and, once again, quite serendipitously, here are a few paragraphs from a tape I made on 10-12-12 that explains this in more detail…

Let’s make a List of things Infiltrators would do on the only Message Board that has a chance of Waking Up the Masses. They would say, you can’t eat enough Calories - heard that before by Billings. You can’t get enough Protein. You can’t get the RDA for Protein. You can’t get the Fats. You got to eat Animals to get all of the Protein and all of the Fats. You can’t get all of your Proteins and all of your Fats and you can’t eat enough Calories.

Well, in the beginning when people eat more of the Foods they’re supposed to eat that’s high in Water and high in Fiber, your Body can’t adapt initially. We’ve Perverted our Body - we’ve Damaged our Body and it takes a while for us to be able to even eat the way we’re supposed to eat. We got to re-train our Stomach so that it gets used to filling up and shrinking very quickly. Now we put a bunch of Dead Food in there - it stretches it out and it keeps it stretched out for a long time.

So yes, in the beginning, it is difficult for people to eat the right amount of Food because their Body is going to fill full when they reach that Stomach Level, which really isn’t that big. But the Stomach knows - I can’t keep stretching because it takes forever to empty it, so this is as far as I going to stretch. But when we allow the Stomach to shrink rapidly, then it’s able to expand rapidly because it knows it’s going to be shrinking right back down. So it takes a while to readjust the Body so it can recognize what it needs to do and be able to do it.

So in the beginning, we have to Modify the Ideal Diet by incorporating Vegetable Juices. And then, when it comes to the Protein, that’s absurd to think that Animal Protein is any way shape or form superior to Plant Protein. It may be superior for an Animal designed to eat Flesh, but since we’re Not designed to eat Flesh, Animal Protein is Not superior. It’s absurd to think that it can be, otherwise, why would the Biggest and Strongest Animals on this Planet be eating Plants? That’s what they’re designed to eat.

So not only is the quantity of Vegetable Protein double that in Animal Flesh, but we cannot assimilate the Protein in Animals without making the Liver get in on the act and now we’re abusing the Liver. And then, the Fat argument goes back to the Art of Healing. We may have Damaged our Body and may Not be able to make certain Level 2 Nutrients, like DHA. And most people who aren’t exposed to excess amounts of Fish, like Norwegian people who can no longer make any DHA, most of us are consuming way too many Omega 6s to Omega 3s, so, once again, our Bodies are Damaged - it’s Impaired and it too can no longer make DHA.

So once again, this is where the Art of Healing comes into play. Most people are consuming way too much Omega 6 - it’s like a 20:1 ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3 and we need to be more like 4:1 or 1:1. And until our Body returns to Homeostasis, we’re going to have to Supplement our Body to make sure it gets everything it needs.

<<<What am i promoting as an alternative? NOTHING. Why, because i dont have an alternative, im simply one of the many people who weren't able to make a raw diet work.>>>

Indeed, we need to talk about why the Science doesn’t work so we can Apply the Art, which is reflected in the very last sentence in my Post - “In that case, by all means let's find out what they did so that it doesn't happen to others.”

<<<Its great to discredit anyone who has a problem with the raw diet, its all part and parcel of the raw movement, because as we know the raw diet is unfailable and a panacea that works for everybody.>>>

That’s a Straw Man if it’s directed at me and if it is directed at me, go back and STUDY what I’ve written. And even if it’s NOT directed at me, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to go back and STUDY what I’ve written anyway because it seems like you’re still missing my point as you keep repeating the same old Mantra that Raw Food does Not work. Raw Food is the Science and yes, some people, like NHers, don’t know how to Apply the Art, but at least NH knows that Raw Food is Not a panacea as it’s only 1 of our Essential Needs.

<<<Lets flip the post around and look why others are obviously so very threatened by a mere opposing viewpoint to their own ideals when it comes to diet.>>>

Once again, if this is directed to me, it’s another Straw Man. However, I’m NOT in Denial about the Anatomy we’ve been given and we are clearly NOT designed to eat Dead Burnt Bodies with Blood and Gore and Guts and Veins in our Teeth, as Arlo Guthrie would say.

<<<As i say this post dissapoints me, even though we have radically different viewpoints on what constituents as a healthy diet, i always thought you were open minded enough to see entertain listening to both sides of the story John. How do you form a balanced viewpoint if you are getting nothing but positive testimonials, you can't.>>>

OK, there is NO DOUBT about this being a Straw Man Argument. Once again, go back and read the very last sentence in my Post and go back and STUDY what I’ve written on the Science and Art of Healing. What you are claiming I do NOT do is covered under the Art of Healing and this is, indeed, an ART!!!

Peace and Love..........John

I can consume enough calories from raw food, but i really don't want to be sitting grazing on raw food all day just in order to get enough calories, especially when i could just balance my diet out with a little more nutrient dense foods. I have been there and done that lifestyle and it definitley isn't for me.

To note i average around 3500 + calories a day, even more off season if im training heavily, so your assumption that i can't consume enough calories is unfounded. I just hypothesize that the high failure rate with an all raw diet is because most people don't want to sit and eat raw food all day. Most raw food is low in calories and requires a large amount of volume, especially when you go low fat and eliminate overt fats.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 07:05PM by powerlifer.

<<<The rigid 100 hundred percentism has only arisen with the presence of aggressive gurus who profit from pushing people to 100%. Even Doug Graham made a video where he said that his diet was never intended to exclusively be 100% raw. He also suggested that the raw community back off with the aggression. Dan MacDonald recently admitted that he eats eggs in high stress situations. What does that make these people, John? Conspirators in a massive Zionist ploy to bring you down?>>>

Eric,

You keep making the same mistake over and over - YOU ASSUME TOO MUCH!!!

I HAVE NEVER PUSHED 100% ON ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because I’m 100% doesn’t mean that I insist everyone else has to be 100% and I’m not even convinced we have to be 100% just as long as our Biophoton Levels are adequate.

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 07:10PM by John Rose.

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Eric,
>
> You keep making the same mistake over and over -
> YOU ASSUME TOO MUCH!!!
>
> I HAVE NEVER PUSHED 100% ON ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Just because I’m 100% doesn’t mean that I
> insist everyone else has to be 100% and I’m not
> even convinced we have to be 100% just as long as
> our Biophoton Levels are adequate.
>
> Peace and Love..........John

Then what is the issue here John?, im not argueing that raw foods are bad, you know i love plant foods and there respective health benefits. Im a massive fan of phyto-medicine. What i do argue is that an 100% raw diet isn't healthy, seems that is inline with your own beliefs?.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 07:13PM by powerlifer.

<<<I just hypothesize that the high failure rate with an all raw diet is because most people don't want to sit and eat raw food all day.>>>

You’re kidding, right?

Most people I know LOVE to eat.

Peace and Love..........John

The problem is that most have conditioned themselves into spices, garlic, pepper, so fresh rawness is not sufficient for them. They are missing SAD but do not want to go back and yet them claim to be raw.

<<< Then what is the issue here John? … What i do argue is that an 100% raw diet isn't healthy, seems that is inline with your own beliefs?>>>

No, those are NOT my Beliefs! The Issue is insisting that 100% Raw Food doesn’t work short term or long term. Please tell me what you are getting in DEAD FOOD or ANIMAL FOOD that a healthy person cannot get from a Raw Vegan Diet?

Peace and Love..........John

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<< Then what is the issue here John? … What i
> do argue is that an 100% raw diet isn't healthy,
> seems that is inline with your own beliefs?>>>
>
> No, those are NOT my Beliefs! The Issue is
> insisting that 100% Raw Food doesn’t work short
> term or long term. Please tell me what you are
> getting in DEAD FOOD or ANIMAL FOOD that a healthy
> person cannot get from a Raw Vegan Diet?
>
> Peace and Love..........John

From a nutritional point of view, how about we start with Vitamin D or Vitamin B12. We don't all have access to lovely tropical levels of sun year round.

Where do i get these nutrients on a raw vegan diet?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 07:26PM by powerlifer.

Good points Powerlifer, where do you get B12 if you are vegan?

LOL. Exactly. I'm assuming nothing. I'm reacting to what John said. Is there anyone here who doesn't spent scads of time every day slicing, dicing, blending, purchasing, eating and in some cases growing large amounts of incredibly healthy raw organic produce? No.

What I see is that there are people who simply interpret and define "raw food support" differently. Some see it as a one-side exercise in positivity and can't fail promotion. Others see support as offering the full-spectrum of results, both good and bad, so that newbies are free to make fully-informed decisions. The absolute truth is that raw veganism as a diet peaked in the mid to late years of the first decade of this century. About 5 years later, a whole lot of people are emerging with issues. At a certain point, it comes time to sit down and have a talk about this. Why? Because there's trouble in paradise.

John, just because people aren't making things easy for you doesn't mean that they have hate in their heart for you. Believe it or not, I see you as a passionate brother in humanity and have respect and love for much of what you do. Deal with it.

powerlifer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> John Rose Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Eric,
> >
> > You keep making the same mistake over and over
> -
> > YOU ASSUME TOO MUCH!!!
> >
> > I HAVE NEVER PUSHED 100% ON ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Just because I’m 100% doesn’t mean that I
> > insist everyone else has to be 100% and I’m
> not
> > even convinced we have to be 100% just as long
> as
> > our Biophoton Levels are adequate.
> >
> > Peace and Love..........John
>
> Then what is the issue here John?, im not argueing
> that raw foods are bad, you know i love plant
> foods and there respective health benefits. Im a
> massive fan of phyto-medicine. What i do argue is
> that an 100% raw diet isn't healthy, seems that is
> inline with your own beliefs?.

<<<From a nutritional point of view, how about we start with Vitamin D or Vitamin B12. Where do i get these nutrients on a raw vegan diet?>>>

Chris,

As you well know, I don’t have any problems with Supplementing and as I’ve mentioned to you several times, we cannot use the argument that if we have to Supplement, then the Diet is Not Ideal. That’s Not a Logical argument, but it would be a Logical argument if the Conditions had Not Changed! But the Conditions have changed and now we have to Apply the Art of Healing along with the Science of Healing.

Peace and Love..........John

<<<John, just because people aren't making things easy for you doesn't mean that they have hate in their heart for you. Believe it or not, I see you as a passionate brother in humanity and have respect and love for much of what you do. Deal with it.>>>

Eric,

“We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don’t. -Frank A. Clark

Peace and Love..........John

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> <<>>
>
> Chris,
>
> As you well know, I don’t have any problems with
> Supplementing and as I’ve mentioned to you
> several times, we cannot use the argument that if
> we have to Supplement, then the Diet is Not Ideal.
> That’s Not a Logical argument, but it would be
> a Logical argument if the Conditions had Not
> Changed! But the Conditions have changed and now
> we have to Apply the Art of Healing along with the
> Science of Healing.
>
> Peace and Love..........John

There is nothing natural about having to supplement synthetic nutrients in our diet though John. I am not for supplementation, especially when it comes to essential nutrients that should be obtained via dietary and natural food sources.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 08:48PM by powerlifer.

Conditions have changed means
Insufficient sun for some
And sterility-caused b12 issues.

So u either supplement
Or
Eat non vegan
But non vegan is not a sure solution either

Some prefer to illogically use these facts that have been hashed over and over
To malign veganism

And then when one false obstacle is knocked down
The antivegan dogmatic person moves
On to the next alleged flaw
And so we go


On and on

<<< There is nothing natural about having to supplement synthetic nutrients in our diet though John. I am not for supplementation, especially when it comes to essential nutrients that should be obtained via dietary sources.>>>

Chris,

Who said anything about taking “synthetic nutrients”?

First of all, let’s take a look at the only Condition to my Question and that has to do with a Healthy person. A Healthy person Satisfies all of their Needs and that includes Adequate Sunshine, which is where we’re supposed to get our Vitamin D. We’re NOT supposed to get Vitamin D “via Dietary Sources” - we’re supposed to get it from the Sun. Now some people believe that we cannot obtain enough Vitamin D from the sun, so therefore we must consume animal products. This belief is not shared by Dr. T. Colin Campbell. In his latest book “The China Study,” Dr. Campbell not only states that we can indeed receive all the Vitamin D, which is actually more of a hormone our body produces, from the sun, but too much animal protein and too much calcium depress the blood levels of 1,25 D, which is a supercharged Vitamin D metabolite and does most of the important work of Vitamin D in our bodies.

Now as far as the B12, I also don’t have any problems with people consuming Ethical Raw Egg Yolks in lieu of Supplements, especially if Money is an issue and they also are deficient in Cholesterol, DHA and Taurine. Of course, absorption problems are the main issue with B12, so the Ethical Raw Egg Yolks might not do the trick, as Gary pointed out.

Surprised?

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/2012 09:20PM by John Rose.

<<<And then when one false obstacle is knocked down
The antivegan dogmatic person moves
On to the next alleged flaw
And so we go
On and on>>>

Indeed, it’s the Same Old Song and Dance - Over and Over and Over.

Peace and Love..........John

John Rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Indeed, it’s the Same Old Song and Dance - Over
> and Over and Over.
>
> Peace and Love..........John


--
I agree. It's over and over and over again. If I face-planted on my desk every time someone questioned the forum rules and argued with them, I'd have quite a few concussions. lol! Which reminds me of the brain chemistry thread and whether non-vegans have more problems following directions than vegans! Let's do a study!

Pick a side John, geez.

Tam,

I'm Vegan and I promote Veganism, but I live in the real world and if someone has a compromised Liver and are unable to make B12, Cholesterol, DHA and Taurine and they don't have a lot of Money, then 4 dozen Ethical Raw Eggs, which cost about $10 a month can be used in lieu of Supplements, which would cost many times as much. A lot of people can barely make it from one pay check to the next and if we weren't so Sick as a Species, Money would Not be a problem and would Not even be a factor. But Money is a factor for a lot of people and since our Species are supposed to be the Guardians on this Planet, I'm going to put my Species over the Chickens, as long as it's done Ethically, of course.

I realize that most people are NOT as dedicated to helping others as I am and as a result, are NOT aware of a lot of the Obstacles that many of us have to overcome, so I understand where you're coming from Tam and perhaps now, you have a better understanding where I'm coming from.

Peace and Love..........John

Tam,

One more thing that might have you confused as to where I stand is that Raw Veganism has to do with the Science of Healing where we Apply the Law of Cause & Effect and Remove the Primary Causes and then, using Supplements (or even Ethical Raw Egg Yolks because we Lack the Funds to buy the Supplements) has to do with the Art of Healing where we recognize the Ripple Effect because we cannot Change the Condition of all 4 of our Current Status Factors overnight and now we have to deal with Subsequent Causes that don’t go away just because we Removed the Primary Causes.

Interestingly, some people try to use the Art as an excuse Not to use the Science, just like NH uses the Science Not to use the Art and in both cases, both are Wrong.

For example, those who use the Art as an excuse Not to use the Science will say that if you have to Supplement, then the Ideal Diet is NOT the Ideal Diet and once again, we cannot use the argument that if we have to Supplement, then the Diet is Not Ideal. That’s Not a Logical argument, but it would be a Logical argument if the Conditions had Not Changed!

In a similar way, those who follow or practice NH use the Science as an excuse Not to use the Art and insist that we must NOT use Supplements. But Conditions have changed and now we have to Apply the Art of Healing along with the Science of Healing. Unfortunately, NH’s refusal to use Supplements or acknowledge the Ripple Effect or Apply the Art of Healing makes NH look really stupid and alienates the few people who even get a chance to hear their Message.

So the lesson here is Not to confuse the Science with the Art or the Art with the Science.

Peace and Love..........John

One last post. Except that's not true is it John, the liver does not produce Vitamin B12, only stores it to the best of my knowledge.

As such we are back to the my original question of where someone would get Vitamin B12 from a raw vegan diet.

Maybe that is the problem here, when you do in fact recognize that a strict raw vegan diet may require supplementation to work such as B12 or as you suggest eggs, yet in the majority of your posts, i see you promoting the diet as nutritionally complete.

So what is it, is a raw vegan diet nutritionally complete and if so can you answer my original question which was in regards to where one would get adequate Vitamin B12 from a raw vegan diet and if they can't why are you not letting newbies to the diet know this is potentially a problem?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2012 09:26AM by powerlifer.

<<< Except that's not true is it John, the liver does not produce Vitamin B12, only stores it to the best of my knowledge.>>>

Chris,

The Liver is what makes a lot of our Level 2 Nutrients (like DHA, Taurine and Glycoproteins such as Beta Glucan, Glucosamine and Intrinsic Factor) and most people who are B12 Deficient have an Absorption problem where they don’t have enough Hydrochloric Acid to “Split Off” the B12 Molecule from the Protein Molecule and they don’t have enough Intrinsic Factor for the B12 to attach to so it take the B12 across the lining of the GI into the bloodstream.

In other words, the Liver makes Intrinsic Factor and we need Intrinsic Factor in order to Assimilate B12. So if our Livers are compromised, we need more than to eat B12 we need something that can be absorbed directly into the bloodstream, like sublingual B12 tablets.

<<<is a raw vegan diet nutritionally complete>>>

Now let’s take a closer look at what I wrote in my very last Post…

“Interestingly, some people try to use the Art as an excuse Not to use the Science, just like NH uses the Science Not to use the Art and in both cases, both are Wrong.”

You Chris are “using the Art as an excuse Not to use the Science.” - you’re “using the Ripple Effect as excuse Not to use the Law of Cause & Effect.”

The Science is our Species Specific Diet based on our Anatomy, which is clearly Plant based and since Cooking Alters our Food, Cooked Food will Alter us, so it must be a Raw Vegan Diet.

The Art has to do with things like a Damaged Body and a Polluted Environment.

For example, the Chemical Revolution has Altered our Environment and since the Environment is our External Metabolism, so to speak, a Polluted Environment will Alter us.

And then, according to Brian Clement, the Industrial Revolution has Damaged our Intestines and we no longer possess the Ability to produce our own B12 as we did before the Industrial Revolution, just like the Norwegians no longer possess the Ability to produce their own DHA.

Now let me repeat (what looks like won’t be the last time) something else I’ve written more than once…

“…we cannot use the argument that if we have to Supplement, then the Diet is Not Ideal. That’s Not a Logical argument, but it would be a Logical argument if the Conditions had Not Changed! But the Conditions have changed and now we have to Apply the Art of Healing along with the Science of Healing.”

<<<why are you not letting newbies to the diet know this is potentially a problem?>>>

How many times have I mentioned that I recognize the Ripple Effect and our Subsequent Need for POSSIBLE Supplementation?

This is the Art and the Art does NOT Negate the Science.

Tell me Chris, what do you think the Ripple Effect is?

It still seems to me that you don’t understand what the Ripple Effect is because if you did, you would realize that the Ripple Effect is the Common Flaw with NH and with you?

NH does Not recognize the Ripple Effect and then, you turn around and use the Ripple Effect as an EXCUSE to Negate the Law of Cause & Effect, which is where we go back to our Anatomy. We Humans do NOT have the Anatomy to eat Animal Protein and Animal Protein is NOT Superior for Animals for are Not Biologically Designed to Eat other Animals. Every Animal has a Species Specific Diet and the fact that CONDITIONS HAVE CHANGED does NOT mean that our Ideal Diet is Not a Raw Vegan Diet that now, might need to be Modified because of the Ripple Effect.

So before you reply to anything else I’ve posted, please tell me what you think the Ripple Effect means because you keep using the Ripple Effect as an EXCUSE to Negate the Law of Cause & Effect.

Once again, we cannot use the argument that if we have to Supplement, then the Diet is Not Ideal - this just means that we now have to Apply the Art by recognizing the Ripple Effect and using the Ripple Effect in no way takes away from the Science!

For the umpteenth time, CONDITIONS HAVE CHANGED and we may no longer be able to produce certain Level 2 Nutrients (like DHA or Taurine or B12 or Glycoproteins such as Beta Glucan, Glucosamine and Intrinsic Factor) or we may no longer be able to produce enough Bile or Hydrochloric Acid or Insulin or Thyroxin, but this in no way takes away from the Science - this in no way takes away from the fact that our Anatomy is NOT designed to Eat Animals.

I’ll finish by using what Gary said above…

Conditions have changed means
Insufficient sun for some
And sterility-caused b12 issues.

Peace and Love..........John

John you are diverting away from my question once again. Lets forget about ripple effects, conditions, and lets get down to the fact that a raw vegan diet does not contain a reliable dietary source of Vitamin B12.

For whatever reason you believe the conditions to have changed, doesn't detract from the fact that a raw vegan is not nutritionally complete, we can use every excuse under the sun it doesn't change this fact im afraid. The liver does not in anyway directly manufacture B12 so really we are back to the point that a raw vegan diet does not contain a source of B12.

Newbies to a vegan lifestyle should be made aware that the diet is not complete nutritionally and requires either supplementation or small amounts of animal foods as you have suggested for those who can't afford supplements.

What they shouldn't be getting told is that all you need to eat is plant foods and everything will be fine. Its little wonder so many have ran into problems in such case.

So conditions have changed so much John but all these people have to do is include eggs as you suggest. I.e a proven dietary source of Vitamin B12. It seems to be nothing about conditions if all it takes is including a dietary source of B12, the problem is that your eating and suggesting a diet void of this nutrient, not problems manufacturing these nutrients in most cases. Sure there are those with absorption problems, but the majority of vegans who run into trouble, do through lack of dietary intake.

If people are having absorption problems such as lack of Intrinsic Factor then they are likely not going to absorb the B12 through the eggs as you suggest either. Which proves that the problem in most cases is merely a lack of dietary intake once again.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2012 04:11PM by powerlifer.

I always recommend people (raw or not, omni or vegan) take a methylcobalamin supp sublingually. So .....if I see someone join the boards and ask that type of question and I'm logged on, I answer in that manner.

<<<What they shouldn't be getting told is that all you need to eat is plant foods and everything will be fine. … the problem is that your eating and suggesting a diet void of this nutrient, not problems manufacturing these nutrients in most cases.>>>

I see you like using Straw Man Arguments - 2 in this Post and up to 3 in one Post above.

I have never said “all you need to eat is plant foods and everything will be fine” and I am NOT suggesting Not to Supplement. The only Group of people saying that are most of the NHers and if you understood what the Ripple Effect is, then you would see the Flaw in their thinking and in yours too.

<<<John you are diverting away from my question once again. Lets forget about ripple effects,>>>

No, I am NOT diverting the issues and WE CANNOT IGNORE the Ripple Effect. The Solution to ALL OF OUR PROBLEMS has to do with the Law of Cause & Effect and the Ripple Effect, so you CANNOT IGNORE the Ripple Effect.

Ironically, it looks like you are no different than all of those NHers you disagree with because neither one of you guys seem to understand the Ripple Effect. I asked you to tell me what you think the Ripple Effect is so we could be on the same page and since your reply was “Lets forget about ripple effects” pretty much tells me that you have no idea what the Ripple Effect is.

If you would like to continue this discussion, I need to know what you think the Ripple Effect is, otherwise, you will Not be able to understand what I’ve been saying. You do want to understand what I’m trying to say, don’t you? If so, then let’s make sure we’re on the same page in regards to the Ripple Effect and tell me what you think it is.

Peace and Love..........John

It seems you missed the point of my post above John, forget the ripple effects, the excuses, the condition changes, if all it takes is reintroducing a dietary source as you suggest eggs or supplements then the problem is that your diet is lacking an essential nutrient, not because of ripple effects.

I have NOT missed your point because the Nutrient you claim is Lacking is Due to the Ripple Effect - our Bodies have Changed and so has our Environment and these are NOT Excuses as you think they are, which once again, shows that you don’t even know what the Ripple Effect is.

What’s really sad is your refusal to tell me what you think the Ripple Effect is.

WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF CHRIS?

WHY CAN’T YOU ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION?

I’ve already Answered all of your Questions, but you don’t know what the Ripple Effect is and now you don’t even understand my Answers. Instead, you act like as if I have not Answered your Questions. The Answer to the Questions you pose requires both the Law of Cause & Effect and the Ripple Effect and perhaps you simply lack the Willingness and/or Ability to wrap your brain around this very simple concept - a concept that all of us are born with and is reinforced very early in life.

Peace and Love..........John





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2012 05:55PM by John Rose.